Best Way To Handle Multishot Nerf

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

There should be an option in the upgrade tab to make the extra projectiles do less damage, or to consume ammo directly out of your reserve ammo so it won't affect clip size.

This would allow ammo eficent guns to keep their multi shot for full damage while the less efficient ones sacrifice some damage but don't use extra ammo.

[Francois878_TTV]

This is... actually not a half bad idea...

 

I'm not sure how it would be implemented in the game, but it would give the players choices on how to run different weapons. They would probably have to take out the pre existing multi-shot mods and give us new ones that worked in similar ways. Like "+100% Multishot, +100% ammo consumption" and "50% Multishot, +0% ammo consumption" would be the way I'd do it for primary rifles. 

 

Of course, this is all a moot point since the devs have already said they're going to reevaluate all the damage mods in the game to find a better solution. DE isn't going to nerf multishot just yet!

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

Ehh idk because you'll still end up with less ammo. In the warframe builder. If you'll add split chamber (Just split chamber) to a rifle. You can see the dps it does. But if u take away split chamber & add 1 90% elemental mod. It does the same amount of dps it does if only split chamber was equipped. just without the extra projectiles. Now if this calculation is correct (could be wrong). Most players are just gonna replace it with a 90% element mod. But not only is split chamber is changing. But how we do dmg is changing entirely. So we just have to see whats gonna happen in the Devstream. This whole change could actually turn out better to the point we wont need multishot.

[Xiusa]

I'd rather it consume ammo from the ammo pool instead of the clip. Creates less problems that way.

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

Ehh idk because you'll still end up with less ammo. In the warframe builder. If you'll add split chamber (Just split chamber) to a rifle. You can see the dps it does. But if u take away split chamber & add 1 90% elemental mod. It does the same amount of dps it does if only split chamber was equipped. just without the extra projectiles. Now if this calculation is correct (could be wrong). Most players are just gonna replace it with a 90% element mod. But not only is split chamber is changing. But how we do dmg is changing entirely. So we just have to see whats gonna happen in the Devstream. This whole change could actually turn out better to the point we wont need multishot.

my idea was so you can decide if you want the most damage per shot or for your ammo. About the elementals keep in mind multi shot also affects status chance, and you have to take into account resistinces.

[Rehtael7]

my idea was so you can decide if you want the most damage per shot or for your ammo. About the elementals keep in mind multi shot also affects status chance, and you have to take into account resistinces.

Though this REALLY doesn't deal with the core problem of multishot. It's too good and goes on EVERYTHING. Even if they implemented a feature just like this for ONE type of mod (Which is already an iffy idea), that would give people even fewer reasons not to use multishot still.

 

I posted my own idea for the multishot nerf approach a little bit ago.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/527949-a-fair-solution-to-the-multishot-problem/?hl=multishot

Maybe give it a look, let me know what you think. I agree that something needs to be done about it, but I'm not sure your approach would work in terms of implementation and again, the core problem still exists.

[Orakan]

Though this REALLY doesn't deal with the core problem of multishot. It's too good and goes on EVERYTHING. Even if they implemented a feature just like this for ONE type of mod (Which is already an iffy idea), that would give people even fewer reasons not to use multishot still.

 

I posted my own idea for the multishot nerf approach a little bit ago.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/527949-a-fair-solution-to-the-multishot-problem/?hl=multishot

Maybe give it a look, let me know what you think. I agree that something needs to be done about it, but I'm not sure your approach would work in terms of implementation and again, the core problem still exists.

your idea wont work on hek. it has 320 multishot percent even with that useless Recycle idea we still cant use the hek properly

[Isycius_Ievel]

Technically, this idea is feasible based on real-world equivelant of multishot attempt called 5.56x45mm Duplex.

 

Of course it had thousands of technical problem in real world, but in Warframe world, In Warframe universe, we could just make bullet using Oxium to reduce the weight and such to cover up for those problem.

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

Though this REALLY doesn't deal with the core problem of multishot. It's too good and goes on EVERYTHING. Even if they implemented a feature just like this for ONE type of mod (Which is already an iffy idea), that would give people even fewer reasons not to use multishot still.

I posted my own idea for the multishot nerf approach a little bit ago.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/527949-a-fair-solution-to-the-multishot-problem/?hl=multishot

Maybe give it a look, let me know what you think. I agree that something needs to be done about it, but I'm not sure your approach would work in terms of implementation and again, the core problem still exists.

umm this is solely you trying to promote your thread. My idea actually takes into account builds, ammo is already dependent on rng. What you presented means you run out at a slower rate. It will stay as a meta mod, DE's problem with meta mods is build diversity isn't much of a thing right now because certain mods are simply required to make a weapon usful.

[Zahkriin]

Ehh idk because you'll still end up with less ammo. In the warframe builder. If you'll add split chamber (Just split chamber) to a rifle. You can see the dps it does. But if u take away split chamber & add 1 90% elemental mod. It does the same amount of dps it does if only split chamber was equipped. just without the extra projectiles. Now if this calculation is correct (could be wrong). Most players are just gonna replace it with a 90% element mod. But not only is split chamber is changing. But how we do dmg is changing entirely. So we just have to see whats gonna happen in the Devstream. This whole change could actually turn out better to the point we wont need multishot.

if u only compare this 2 mods ur correct... but when you try it with a full build weapon (serration, heavy caliber etc.) its diffrent^^

[Akiryx]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/527949-a-fair-solution-to-the-multishot-problem/?view=getnewpost

 

^^^^ This one actually solves the problem, I'd say. Yours unfortunately doesn't deal with the concept of it being a core mod. All it does is make the penalty worse, but people would still use it. The one above however, actually creates a mechanic that is balanced, and also more custom, which when combined with the rest of the changes DE will make (I'm kinda theorizing a Damage 3.0 here, to be honest) will make much more sense.

 

 

your idea wont work on hek. it has 320 multishot percent even with that useless Recycle idea we still cant use the hek properly

Well, his change would affect ALL multi-shot mods, including that one. Additionally, you really think DE is just going to do the ammo change, and nothing else? Obviously not. They're going to change how the entire damage system works, including enemy scaling. His system would actually work well with that, whereas this one just sort of adds a small convenience factor, but doesn't actually address the problem.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Akiryx

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

I don't think the damage overhaul will happen at the same time as the multishot nerf this idea is for the time gap in between as some builds simply won't be usable with an extra 90% ammo consumption. The problem with the recycle mecanic is that ammo shouldn't be based any more on rng than it already is. Going 45 minutes in a t3 survival you shouldn't have to pray that your last arrow recycles on your Paris prime.

In short its not a perment solution but it is the best way taking into account the full game but I'm definitely open to better ideas as long as they take into account EVERYTHING the game has to offer.

Edited September 25, 2015 by (XB1)kr0mus

[Akiryx]

I don't think the damage overhaul will happen at the same time as the multishot nerf this idea is for the time gap in between as some builds simply won't be usable with an extra 90% ammo consumption. The problem with the recycle mecanic is that ammo shouldn't be based any more on rng than it already is. Going 45 minutes in a t3 survival you shouldn't have to pray that your last arrow recycles on your Paris prime.

In short its not a perment solution but it is the best way taking into account the full game but I'm definitely open to better ideas as long as they take into account EVERYTHING the game has to offer.

I am under the exact opposite impression. They specifically talked about how the multishot discussion had brought them around to more seriously discussing things like enemy scaling, weapon level scaling, and other damage mods, I would think they would bundle them all together, in order to make it so that the multishot change ISN'T a huge nerf.

 

Additionally, if you actually READ his idea thoroughly, there would be plenty of recycle chance, in fact, you could have a 100% chance, however not anything PAST that, which would mean that while you may be able to add additional multishot, you would only gain back ONE shot. And to be honest, it's a pretty balanced solution. However I think NONE of this is necessary to be honest, if they do it the way I imagine they would. However I do have to say that I think you have it backwards. His solution allows for customization and balance, without the total RELIANCE on multishot, whereas yours.. all it does is solve the re-loading issue, instead of the ACTUAL issue, which is what you claim to be solving by supposedly taking everything into account, which.. you don't. It doesn't take into account the fact that literally every build worth using uses multishot, and in 99% of cases (The only example I can think of is the Nukor on Hornet Strike is optional if you're using it for status) damage mods are as well. That is what DE is looking to change, and his solution is much more beneficial to that than yours is.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Akiryx

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

I am under the exact opposite impression. They specifically talked about how the multishot discussion had brought them around to more seriously discussing things like enemy scaling, weapon level scaling, and other damage mods, I would think they would bundle them all together, in order to make it so that the multishot change ISN'T a huge nerf.

Additionally, if you actually READ his idea thoroughly, there would be plenty of recycle chance, in fact, you could have a 100% chance, however not anything PAST that, which would mean that while you may be able to add additional multishot, you would only gain back ONE shot. And to be honest, it's a pretty balanced solution. However I think NONE of this is necessary to be honest, if they do it the way I imagine they would. However I do have to say that I think you have it backwards. His solution allows for customization and balance, without the total RELIANCE on multishot, whereas yours.. all it does is solve the re-loading issue, instead of the ACTUAL issue, which is what you claim to be solving by supposedly taking everything into account, which.. you don't. It doesn't take into account the fact that literally every build worth using uses multishot, and in 99% of cases (The only example I can think of is the Nukor on Hornet Strike is optional if you're using it for status) damage mods are as well. That is what DE is looking to change, and his solution is much more beneficial to that than yours is.

when I say everything I mean even guns who have poor ammo economy whith certain builds. For example my Paris prime will one shot pretty much everything I look at, but do to its mod configuration and the fact that it uses sniper ammo it averages about 25 arrows if the ner hits rghit now then I'll averege about 3 arrows with a 60% return chance so two arrows more or less.(Again I have zero mod slots on this weapon) Plus beeing able to recycle ammo 100% of the time through tons of multi shot mods isn't a nerf. It's a good idea but its too good, having to choose your own nerf to multi shot in my idea makes you more likely to at least try a build without it.

[Akiryx]

when I say everything I mean even guns who have poor ammo economy whith certain builds. For example my Paris prime will one shot pretty much everything I look at, but do to its mod configuration and the fact that it uses sniper ammo it averages about 25 arrows if the ner hits rghit now then I'll averege about 3 arrows with a 60% return chance so two arrows more or less.(Again I have zero mod slots on this weapon) Plus beeing able to recycle ammo 100% of the time through tons of multi shot mods isn't a nerf. It's a good idea but its too good, having to choose your own nerf to multi shot in my idea makes you more likely to at least try a build without it.

Your problem doesn't fix ammo economy in the slightest. You're still going to run out of ammo, you'll just have slightly more in your clip. (Not to mention that your idea for them drawing from the ammo pool rather than the clip makes 0 sense but..) while being able to recycle is a balance. You get some multishot, and with new mod suggestions by him you can get more than +1, however you also can only get 100% recycling. That means that you can choose to build for multi-shot if you wish too, but if you go to stronk with it you have a draw-back. Additionally, DE isn't trying to nerf something at this point. They're looking to BALANCE something, not just make multishot worse with nothing to help it out. I'm sorry but you're just wrong in point of fact. 

 

EDIT: As I read back through, I notice, it ALSO doesn't make sense in terms of plausibility that the extra shots would do any less damage. It's the same bullet, or laser, or whatever, as you're firing normally. 

 

I appreciate the fact that you're trying to come up with a solution for Multishot that takes into account everything and makes it not just a nerf, but I really don't think you've succeeded here. At most what you have is a stall, until they can figure out a full system, including reworking damage and enemy scaling, but the thing is they don't NEED a stall. They can simply keep Multishot as is, until the whole system is ready. It's not like it's breaking the game or making it unplayable, it's simply a system that they want to change, and that can wait until it's ready.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Akiryx

[(XBOX)kr0mus]

We must simply agree to dissagree then, becuase I feel the exact same about your idea. I hope that DE has a better plan than either of ours that takes into account both our concerns.

Edited September 27, 2015 by (XB1)kr0mus

[Rehtael7]

Your problem doesn't fix ammo economy in the slightest. You're still going to run out of ammo, you'll just have slightly more in your clip. (Not to mention that your idea for them drawing from the ammo pool rather than the clip makes 0 sense but..) while being able to recycle is a balance. You get some multishot, and with new mod suggestions by him you can get more than +1, however you also can only get 100% recycling. That means that you can choose to build for multi-shot if you wish too, but if you go to stronk with it you have a draw-back. Additionally, DE isn't trying to nerf something at this point. They're looking to BALANCE something, not just make multishot worse with nothing to help it out. I'm sorry but you're just wrong in point of fact. 

 

EDIT: As I read back through, I notice, it ALSO doesn't make sense in terms of plausibility that the extra shots would do any less damage. It's the same bullet, or laser, or whatever, as you're firing normally. 

 

I appreciate the fact that you're trying to come up with a solution for Multishot that takes into account everything and makes it not just a nerf, but I really don't think you've succeeded here. At most what you have is a stall, until they can figure out a full system, including reworking damage and enemy scaling, but the thing is they don't NEED a stall. They can simply keep Multishot as is, until the whole system is ready. It's not like it's breaking the game or making it unplayable, it's simply a system that they want to change, and that can wait until it's ready.

I appreciate the notes on my concept. If you have more to say on it, by all means please drop a comment on my original thread. It helps keep it in the public eye. I feel kind of scummy skoomy trying to promote it like this, but that's how suggestions get implemented, by being noticed and discussed.

 

And out of respect to the OP, it will move discussion on my idea out of his/ her thread.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Rehtael7