Kunai Damage Numbers

[Argoms]

When I first got them, I felt the kunai were OP. Having played with them a few days, I'm not sure if this was a knee jerk reaction (the last primary I'd been using had been bronco, which I hated) or a logical conclusion. So here are the numbers.

 

DPS (theoretical)

Pure damage per second, ignoring reloading. Assuming you had bottomless magazines, how much would you do:

twin vipers: 400

afuris: 280

akbolto: 250

despair: 181.5

kunai: 148.5

lex: 77

 

Damage per pickup (ammo efficiency)

The amount of damage done per pickup of pistol ammo.

lex: 1400

despair: 1100

kunai: 900

akbolto: 500

twin vipers: 320

afuris: 280

 

Sustained dps (non-kunai numbers from thypari2013's old thread)

damage per magazine/(time to empty mag + reload time)

afuris: 158.1

twin vipers: 148.3

akbolto: 136.4

despair: 134.1

kunai: 109.8

lex: 53.81

 

___

 

The kunai don't do more than any of the already existing dps guns. They are, however, 2-3x more ammo efficient.

 

I think the ammo system in general is what really needs to be looked at. Primaries are even sillier- the gorgon, a  light machine gun designed for sustained fire, carries the same amount of ammunition as the latron, a semi-automatic combat rifle. 

[BloodWolfx]

Agreed.

[MetalGerbil]

while it makes practical sense. it would kinda throw alot of weps out the window.

then it would be nothing but DPS considerations and thats half your selection gone right there.

hell some feel the only wep worth taking anywhere is the boltor. imagine if it had the same ammo efficiency of a latron.

at that point, why take anything else?

[Argoms]

hell some feel the only wep worth taking anywhere is the boltor. imagine if it had the same ammo efficiency of a latron.

That's their problem and a subjective observation.

 

I'm going to say this, and it's probably going to piss at least one person off. If you feel the only weapon worth using is the boltor, you can't aim. 

[neKroMancer]

Problem with this assumption is there is no reduction of damage due to armor factored into the equation. I like the calculation though.

[elindred]

Think of it as the Latron to the Akbolto's Braton.

[mogamu]

DPS (theoretical)

Pure damage per second, ignoring reloading. Assuming you had bottomless magazines, how much would you do:

twin vipers: 400

afuris: 280

akbolto: 250

despair: 181.5

kunai: 148.5

lex: 77

 

I have been TRYING to explain this to people.  My vipers kick my Kunai in the face any day of the week, its just a ammo issue.  If Vipers had double the max ammo I wouldn't even bother with Kunai beyond level 30

 

Vipers + Mouse1 = instant death.  But where is the Viper hate?

[Argoms]

The kunai are three times more ammo efficient. Many people seem to be incapable of judging when to stop shooting and end up dumping a lot of rounds into corpses too. Viper probably requires more skill to use in that way- without disciplined fire (right term? can't remember), you end up running out of ammo very quickly.

[Chessalavakia]

Besides DPS functionality is also relevant. The Kunai is incredibly functional. I can almost use it the same way I use the Lex and it does far more damage.

[Argoms]

Besides DPS functionality is also relevant. The Kunai is incredibly functional. I can almost use it the same way I use the Lex and it does far more damage.

Wait whaaa?

 

You can almost use it the same way you use lex, and it does far more damage. Well yeah, it does multiple times the dps?

[ApocDream]

Long range, armor ignore, and efficiency puts it above the other stuff.

[Dasmir]

Problem with this assumption is there is no reduction of damage due to armor factored into the equation. I like the calculation though.

 

all that match is wrong becouse no all the bullets are going to hit and some wep has armor ignoring also the blablabal critical and weak spots of enemy and etc.

[VScipii26]

The two biggest issues are armor pierce and and ammo.
That's what makes it amazing, raw numbers on paper may seem pretty, but the Afuris actually one of the worst weapons on there, due to the horrid ammo managements and actual damage output on a target, not on paper.

Raw numbers are not good enough, as they would undo all ideas of the research weapons, as well. (See the Dura complaints)

[Firetempest]

A slight reduction in efficiency and a degradation of damage much like a shotgun, keeping it from mopping up rooms like a mini paris with a lot more ammo.

 

The range cap on damage alone would likely more than enough keep this in line with the other big hitting pistols as these knives get a ton of little perks.

Edited May 29, 2013 by Firetempest

[DeadlyNerd]

 

I'm going to say this, and it's probably going to &!$$ at least one person off. If you feel the only weapon worth using is the boltor, you can't aim. 

While boltor does ignore armor and there is no real need for headshots, its projectiles have a flight time and the gun itself fires bolts a bit lower than the crosshair would suggest.

 

This, to your surprise, requires good aim of the players who want to use boltor efficiently, as in 1-2 shot kills.

In that case boltor IS the only weapon worth taking and those saying that, DO have good aim.

Edited May 29, 2013 by DeadlyNerd

[neKroMancer]

all that match is wrong becouse no all the bullets are going to hit and some wep has armor ignoring also the blablabal critical and weak spots of enemy and etc.

Love it when people unable to defend their idea and start throwing unintelligible tantrum.

Almost all enemies in the game have armor which cut damage by 2/3. If you leave something that big out of the equation in order to support your idea, it's biased.

[HailCreation]

The kunai are three times more ammo efficient. Many people seem to be incapable of judging when to stop shooting and end up dumping a lot of rounds into corpses too. Viper probably requires more skill to use in that way- without disciplined fire (right term? can't remember), you end up running out of ammo very quickly.

Well when it comes to the viper it's hard to tell. The only real way of knowing is when you see XP numbers show up, but sometimes there's a delay between bullet contact and death. 

 

My latron, for example. It can 1 shot worker's in jackle's level. I need to shoot once and wait though.

[Argoms]

To those who say that armor piercing needs to be taken into account- notice how the akboltos beat the kunai in everything except ammo efficiency. I'm also not quite sure what's going on with the despair (some people have been saying it's AP and not armor ignore damage). I have them though, so I'll test that some time.

 

While boltor does ignore armor and there is no real need for headshots, its projectiles have a flight time and the gun itself fires bolts a bit lower than the crosshair would suggest.

 

This, to your surprise, requires good aim of the players who want to use boltor efficiently, as in 1-2 shot kills.

In that case boltor IS the only weapon worth taking and those saying that, DO have good aim.

No real need for headshots. That's its only benefit over other things like the braton now that we can polarize items. Guess who can't headshot? People who can't aim. Plus the projectiles drift randomly off past a certain distance, so long distance shooting is literally impossible. Target leading isn't hard in the sort of range that the projectiles will accurately fly. 

[direcyphre]

Total ammo pool has definitely been brought up a few times, especially when  it comes to the ammo eaters like dual vipers and afuris. Would certainly be a nice idea and make Vipers my preferred choice!

 

I think an alternate balance would be more of a damage fall off at range. Right now it seems to be as effective as a rapid-fire Paris, and I can easily snipe distant targets provided they are moving in predictable directions or standing still. Can't say I've really seen a difference in numbers for these, but isn't there a damage drop at ranges for other sidearms?

[Bubsters]

If any weapon should have fall off damage, this should be it.

 

Also modded Kunai's are just silly. lol.

[Hietala217]

Have to admit, I finally got the +100% Multishot, +100% Damage, +100% Crit Chance on my Kunai finally and it's simply awesome. lol

 

I still prefer my Akboltos over the Kunai for most situations, but it is a nice change of pace. The +60% reserved ammo is a bit overkill with the Kunai, though. The twin vipers are really nice, also. They kill fast, but even with the +60% ammo they can eat through the reserves like mad if you're not having any luck with pistol ammo dropping.

[twibs]

Wiki says they can't crit so I wonder what are you doing with the crit mod.

Apart from that there are three major things going for the Kunai

-double 'V' polarity slot

-extremely fast reload speed

-full damage on armored enemies (when it says 45, it actually is 45)

I love mine, no doubt about that.

Edited May 30, 2013 by twibs

[Argoms]

Polarities are no longer a factor in arguing weapon balance because of forma. If we did count them, kunai would be pretty blatantly OP.