Why There Are Nerfs In A Pve Game.

[Kantazo]

Nerf is an easy, lazy solution to a problem. Specially in a PVE game and establish a poor precedent that never ends well, the game does not need nerf on the players side but buffs in the AI side.

[Kantazo]

  You misunderstood what I told you. Reread. The new system isn't the issue.

If I find tougher bosses I can rework my strategy but nerfing the frames that even a blind mob can slap you makes the player feel impotent, angry and frustrated. You game an aluminum bat to hit the ball and now you are giving me a stick to hit the same ball, instead let me keep my aluminum bat and bring a better pitcher, that is the proper solution.

[neKroMancer]

Again  and I will ignore the bullock offense, Rhino didn't need nerf, some areas in the game (bosses, mobs etc needed a buff). In this area we are right now, Solar system I consider it learning ground, a starter point where the DEs can see what works or not, sort of a test lab. Now create a brand new area Alpha Centauri system where the bosses and mobs are tougher and Rhino will face a challenge. That could have been an easier solution, unlock a new solar system that could have been the solution

How on Alpha Century a frame with almost 30 second in invulnerability is going to face a challenge?

That's powercreep in it's purest form.

[neKroMancer]

Nerf is an easy, lazy solution to a problem. Specially in a PVE game and establish a poor precedent that never ends well, the game does not need nerf on the players side but buffs in the AI side.

Look at thing in relative, if you buff AI without buffing the player then your weapon still losing effectiveness. It's just an indirect nerf.

[Kantazo]

To each his own, I have seen through the years what nerf has done in so many games and never, ever has ended well. So take it like you want it.

[Kantazo]

Look at thing in relative, if you buff AI without buffing the player then your weapon still losing effectiveness. It's just an indirect nerf.

 

Agreed but I still have my weapon, by nerfing the weapon you are taking the weapon away from me and replacing it with a useless piece of garbage.

[neKroMancer]

Agreed but I still have my weapon, by nerfing the weapon you are taking the weapon away from me and replacing it with a useless piece of garbage.

Your solution will turn the entire arsenal into garbage. Agree?

[Blatantfool]

If I find tougher bosses I can rework my strategy but nerfing the frames that even a blind mob can slap you makes the player feel impotent, angry and frustrated. You game an aluminum bat to hit the ball and now you are giving me a stick to hit the same ball, instead let me keep my aluminum bat and bring a better pitcher, that is the proper solution.

 

 That isn't how game design works. Not always. They can't just look at an imbalanced feature and say "Oops, well we screw up. Guess we have to rebalance the whole game around this now."

[Kantazo]

Your solution will turn the entire arsenal into garbage. Agree?

Why, we learn to adjust to new challenges with the weapons we have, we know how they work, we know how they interact, but by removing the power of the weapons you are taking away that ability. Why you all cannot see that?

 

Example I give you a knife to peel an orange, I take away knife and give you a fork, can you operate the same? NO.

[Kantazo]

 That isn't how game design works. Not always. They can't just look at an imbalanced feature and say "Oops, well we screw up. Guess we have to rebalance the whole game around this now."

You don't have to rebalance the whole game, you use the "New area" I mentioned before to start the new step in your game.

[Blatantfool]

Why, we learn to adjust to new challenges with the weapons we have, we know how they work, we know how they interact, but by removing the power of the weapons you are taking away that ability. Why you all cannot see that?

Example I give you a knife to peel an orange, I take away knife and give you a fork, can you operate the same? NO.

That isn't what happened. That is what you are saying happened. It isn't the reality of the situation nor the logic behind the choices that brought about the changes you are talking about.

You don't have to rebalance the whole game, you use the "New area" I mentioned before to start the new step in your game.

In other words rebalance the game by taking a very specific turn with future content. Yeah.

[Kantazo]

That isn't what happened. That is what you are saying happened. It isn't the reality of the situation nor the logic behind the choices that brought about the changes you are talking about.

In other words rebalance the game by taking a very specific turn with future content. Yeah.

LOL just LOL, that was not what happened? Hmm ok you win.

[neKroMancer]

Why, we learn to adjust to new challenges with the weapons we have, we know how they work, we know how they interact, but by removing the power of the weapons you are taking away that ability. Why you all cannot see that?

 

Example I give you a knife to peel an orange, I take away knife and give you a fork, can you operate the same? NO.

Ok, let's see.

There is three weapon in the game. All of them have roughly the same DPS, 5. Generic AI has 10 HP which means player can use these weapon to kill AI in 2 second.

An update comes out with a new weapon which has 10 DPS. Now we have a weapon that can kill generic AI within 1 second. Developer deems this weapon overpowered and decide to

1. Buff the AI to balance this weapon. They buff AI's HP to 20. Now the new weapon takes 2 second to kill an AI. What happen to the rest of the weapons? Now they need 4 seconds to kill an AI. If they want these 3 to remain competitive then they must be buffed too. This will surely lead to powercreep.

2. Nerf the new weapon by making it sidegrade with same DPS or add new mechanic for it. New weapon take 2 second to kill an AI but they don't have to buff the AI or getting headache from buffing the first three. The difficulty remains the same.

As a developer, which one you're going to do? As far as PvE game design goes, powercreep is a bad choice. It totally lower the value of older content, it destroys difficulty, it's also bad for marketing. If you happen to buy the first three weapons with real money and then developer push the fourth into the game - imagine your anger and frustration at that point. Undoubtly it's borderlinely raging.

[fauxhb]

useless topic, we had one better just a bit below this.

[Kantazo]

The problem is with weapon 10DPS must also come mob that equals 10 DPS damage. It is a point that all the DEs in the history of MMOs have failed to reach, the point is balance.

 

The problem also relies in the voice of few players who are 24 hours a day game addict and they screw the rest of the players because they reach the end very quick, they get strong very quick and then complain how easy is everything. But the vast of majority of players are not like that, we have work, RL, and only can play few hours a week (I also include students here), that is the vast majority of players, why we have to be punished because a few minority who usually are the voices must heard in the forum want to dictate the majority how to play the game?

[neKroMancer]

The problem is with weapon 10DPS must also come mob that equals 10 DPS damage. It is a point that all the DEs in the history of MMOs have failed to reach, the point is balance.

 

The problem also relies in the voice of few players who are 24 hours a day game addict and they screw the rest of the players because they reach the end very quick, they get strong very quick and then complain how easy is everything. But the vast of majority of players are not like that, we have work, RL, and only can play few hours a week (I also include students here), that is the vast majority of players, why we have to be punished because a few minority who usually are the voices must heard in the forum want to dictate the majority how to play the game?

I don't really understand you first sentence. However, if you are referring to Diablo-like progression, it's different from Warframe. Diablo-like progression is about climbing a power ladder, bigger sword/longer staff/thicker armor, until you reach the point that you mange to beat the game. It's designed with area-item balance. If you're playing act3 using act3 items then you're still bound by balance that was designed by developer.

Warframe, on the other hand, using different approach. All items are able to reach endgame. There is no ceiling which weapons are limited (except the MK-1 which is a starter weapon). It promotes diversity in tactic&strategy. A vast different from Diablo-like progression which restrict your item choice.

Hardcore vs casual. I think hardcore gamers are actually reasonable only when they present their cases with actual data and spreadsheet which they often do. Developer has metric which indicate usage of each weapon in the game to work with already. If one weapon dominate more than 30% of the game then there is something wrong about it since there is 50+ weapons in the game.

[FatalisBane]

Heh this thread is entertaining. Create new content because it was too easy! Well ummm, ok, more content which takes time and money instead of making the current content a bit more balanced, hmm makes sense. I remember when I first got my rhino I tanked him up and was all happy. learned about Iron skin, o boy was that fun.

Remove ALL the tanking mods, slap on power duration, power efficiency and flow with a team of energy siphon, run around and be a god. Anyone who thought that wasn't overpowered is a bit silly. All the nerfs have been thought out and even if they haven't, they have received another look, although Rhino changes were ones that needed to happen. When a frame is a one trick pony, it's a lil silly (Nyx Chaos nerf, Banshee Sound quake, Rhino Iron skin), still powerful abilities but not the only ability that people will run. 

With polarize out as well, nerfing these 1 trick pony style skills seems really important or I'd just make a rhino, remove all but 1 skill slot and just cram in every last thing I wanted (Movement speed etc) and laugh while people die around me because they didn't pick rhino.