Let's Talk Trinity

[izzatuw]

Funny because the best trins never have to heal anyone besides themselves.

Not my fault you only play camping strategies which promote those tactics.

[Witcherlet]

She's a support frame right? Wouldn't performing worse in a solo setting be obvious? 

 

Again you go back to "If you do it wrong" That could be applied to anything. If you miss all your shots and run out of ammo you're pretty screwed. Does that mean there should be inf ammo because it's possible you could mess up? No. That argument is not valid. 

 

Every raid I've been in has had 2 trins. One blessing one EV. It's actually worse to kill enemies at that point which is very silly imo. 

 

Not all trinity builds need to be hyper specialized. That is done because the majority of the game is made pointless with either one. 

You are forgetting that raids are a special case that do not apply completely to the rest of the game.The raid has energy sucking batteries that makes it very difficult to complete without wasting 20+ energy plates, lvl80+ enemies and a horde of manics that can one-shot a lot of the squishy CC frames that are trying to keep the enemies busy. You can blame the raid's design for the need for energy and heal, not Trinity.

 

Imo Trinity herself is in a good place, her kit is solid and it takes some time to get used to it to use it efficiently. Also to use it efficiently you need to understand the skills and trade-offs in those builds as many stated before in the thread.

 

It sounds like you don't have much experience with the frame and it's abilities in person tbh. Most of the well-build CC frames can put the game into "easy mode" without Trinity's help. Experienced players don't need Trin and her EV to keep whole maps in lock and murder everything. Trinity's not really a popular frame to begin with and already went through gigantic nerfs in the past, why discourage people to play her even more?

 

If anything, I'd wait to u18 for the much needed damage and scaling rework and then would think about revisiting Trin.

[DelialFallen]

She's a support frame right? Wouldn't performing worse in a solo setting be obvious? 

 

Again you go back to "If you do it wrong" That could be applied to anything. If you miss all your shots and run out of ammo you're pretty screwed. Does that mean there should be inf ammo because it's possible you could mess up? No. That argument is not valid. 

 

Every raid I've been in has had 2 trins. One blessing one EV. It's actually worse to kill enemies at that point which is very silly imo. 

 

Not all trinity builds need to be hyper specialized. That is done because the majority of the game is made pointless with either one. 

 

The range of EV is much much larger than consumables. Also consumables...by definition...has a cost. EV refunds that cost instantly and effectively has no cost as soon as you cast it. That's the problem. 

 

As for the logic behind how skills work...It's space magic it doesn't have to make sense. I'm only talking about mechanics. I'll leave the art and animation stuff to others because I have no experience with that. 

 

Again consumables have an extremely small range and you have to open up a menu and make sure everyone is on top of eachother for them to work like EV does. Also you have to build them constantly which does drain resources. 

 

Restoring energy to the rest of the team and having healing+damage reduction is very effective group support. She just wouldn't be able to do this things indefinitely and would actually have to choose when to use skills. 

 

Right now it's spam 2 on any enemy you see forever because it refunds its own cost. If mission is over lvl 100 enemies it's spam 2 and then use 99% blessing on recharge. 

 

Even if you run a full duration blessing build you're still going to have EV up all the time. 

 

The large consumables have a rather broad range and their cost is really nothing to balk at, and I'm sure they are available to build to a good many people as to picture them being able to replace the need for a Trinity in a lot of content.  Anecdotally, I've been in more groups for latter content wherein that was the preferred method of energy replenishment and not having a Trinity tagging along.

 

Therefore, it can be conjectured that the only thing your proposed change would accomplish is to bum Trinity players by crippling their ability to be self-sustainable and having to drop more energy plates than ought to be reasonable in moderate content.

 

At this point in the discussion, I must admit I am beginning to get the impression we are all going around in circles.  There have been quite a few sensible rebuttals opening new lines of discussion but they seem to be met with perpetual repetition of the same argument of 99% blessing, regardless of the point of contention presented.

[blazekan5]

How bout valkry? she can turn invincible without the risk of dying

[Kolos1001]

How bout valkry? she can turn invincible without the risk of dying

Wrong thread. 

 

The large consumables have a rather broad range and their cost is really nothing to balk at, and I'm sure they are available to build to a good many people as to picture them being able to replace the need for a Trinity in a lot of content.  Anecdotally, I've been in more groups for latter content wherein that was the preferred method of energy replenishment and not having a Trinity tagging along.

 

Therefore, it can be conjectured that the only thing your proposed change would accomplish is to bum Trinity players by crippling their ability to be self-sustainable and having to drop more energy plates than ought to be reasonable in moderate content.

 

At this point in the discussion, I must admit I am beginning to get the impression we are all going around in circles.  There have been quite a few sensible rebuttals opening new lines of discussion but they seem to be met with perpetual repetition of the same argument of 99% blessing, regardless of the point of contention presented.

The range is like 2m while the base range of EV is 25. Also you're comparing powers to consumables which is dumb. The whole point of consumables is they are a drain on players materials. 

 

You can say anything anecdotally. I could just as easily say "I've anecdotally had every team I've been with beg for me to be a trin because it makes the game trivial"

 

And if it's going in circles it's because you respond with things like "Well it only restores 80% of health and shields without power mods" and "But there's energy restore consumables too!!" Instead of actually saying why permanent 99% reduction isn't broken. You're dodging the issue. 

[izzatuw]

Wrong thread.

The range is like 2m while the base range of EV is 25. Also you're comparing powers to consumables which is dumb. The whole point of consumables is they are a drain on players materials.

You can say anything anecdotally. I could just as easily say "I've anecdotally had every team I've been with beg for me to be a trin because it makes the game trivial"

And if it's going in circles it's because you respond with things like "Well it only restores 80% of health and shields without power mods" and "But there's energy restore consumables too!!" Instead of actually saying why permanent 99% reduction isn't broken. You're dodging the issue.

Like you've been avoiding the cost?

[Kolos1001]

Like you've been avoiding the cost?

Cost of what?

[DelialFallen]

Wrong thread. 

 

The range is like 2m while the base range of EV is 25. Also you're comparing powers to consumables which is dumb. The whole point of consumables is they are a drain on players materials. 

 

You can say anything anecdotally. I could just as easily say "I've anecdotally had every team I've been with beg for me to be a trin because it makes the game trivial"

 

And if it's going in circles it's because you respond with things like "Well it only restores 80% of health and shields without power mods" and "But there's energy restore consumables too!!" Instead of actually saying why permanent 99% reduction isn't broken. You're dodging the issue. 

 

I think I've plainly stated Trinity's toolkit at present is not broken in relation to her abilities doing what the developers implemented into the game.  The fact that there is a mathematically superior way to build for a specific power is not a question of Trinity's toolkit being 'broken' so much as it is the result of what the game studio has designed into the game.

 

I've also compared the energy replenishment plates to EV, and although you do not agree that its range is broad enough, we can -- I'm sure -- both agree any member of a group is free to drop them.

 

The circular pattern, I believe, comes from one party very much set in their opinion and instead of applying their reasoning to the rebuttals presented to them, they drone about the same thing ad aeternum.  You are of course free to do so.

Edited October 12, 2015 by DelialFallen

[Kolos1001]

I think I've plainly stated Trinity's toolkit at present is not broken in relation to her abilities doing what the developers implemented into the game.  The fact that there is a mathematically superior way to build for a specific power is not a question of Trinity's toolkit being 'broken' so much as it is the result of what the game studio has designed into the game.

 

I've also compared the energy replenishment to EV, and although you do not agree that its range is broad enough, we can -- I'm sure -- both agree any member of a group is free to drop them.

 

The circular pattern, I believe, comes from one party very much set in their opinion and instead of applying their reasoning to the rebuttals presented to them, they drone about the same thing ad aeternum.  You are of course free to do so.

Why is it ok for one person to remove the cost of the entire teams powers? In any situation? Saying "Because the devs put it in there" is not adequate because the game is in Beta and changes will be made. It is not the finished product. Saying "because energy restores exist" Does not answer the question. Why is it ok? Powers are built on the concept that they can't be used over and over and over again.

[DelialFallen]

Why is it ok for one person to remove the cost of the entire teams powers? In any situation? Saying "Because the devs put it in there" is not adequate because the game is in Beta and changes will be made. It is not the finished product. Saying "because energy restores exist" Does not answer the question. Why is it ok? Powers are built on the concept that they can't be used over and over and over again.

 

You wish for me to take up way too much authority regarding the game and its design.  You may disagree with that design and that is very good.  I, however, am in no way able to respond in any way differently that I have done hitherto: by providing reasonable assessments into the situation, not in absolutes, not in anything outside the realm of my experience and my application of logic onto the points being discussed.

 

A better way to formulate your question might be to ask me if I think it's detrimental to game play, or if it takes away from a comparable frame's abilities, etc.  Those things, I can respond to.  And I have.  At this point, good sir, you border on derailing your own thread.

[NyxCrab]

Powers are built on the concept that they can't be used over and over and over again.

That is exactly what they're built for though. If they weren't designed to be spammed it wouldn't be the meta atm to run with Energy Siphon with as much power efficiency as you can. Like heck just look at Ember's skillset for example. You literally have to be spamming your abilities over and over and over to get the most out of her. But sure that's just one example, but what about Limbo? He has to keep rifting enemies, himself, and occasionally allies. Vauban and his balls, Nova's Ult, Nyx's Chaos, etc, are all based around spamming them to get the most out of them. Sure, there are a few frames where you don't need to spam, but for a lot of frames spamming powers is exactly what you're supposed to do with them.

[Kolos1001]

You wish for me to take up way too much authority regarding the game and its design.  You may disagree with that design and that is very good.  I, however, am in no way able to respond in any way differently that I have done hitherto: by providing reasonable assessments into the situation, not in absolutes, not in anything outside the realm of my experience and my application of logic onto the points being discussed.

 

A better way to formulate your question might be to ask me if I think it's detrimental to game play, or if it takes away from a comparable frame's abilities, etc.  Those things, I can respond to.  And I have.  At this point, good sir, you border on derailing your own thread.

All the verbal acrobatics in the world isn't going to change that you have no answer for why completely removing cost for the entire team is balanced. And you seem to be the one attempting to derail the thread because you don't want your main nerfed. I honestly wish you'd just respond to the question

 

Why is removing the cost for abilities permanently balanced in any way?

[Kolos1001]

That is exactly what they're built for though. If they weren't designed to be spammed it wouldn't be the meta atm to run with Energy Siphon with as much power efficiency as you can. Like heck just look at Ember's skillset for example. You literally have to be spamming your abilities over and over and over to get the most out of her. But sure that's just one example, but what about Limbo? He has to keep rifting enemies, himself, and occasionally allies. Vauban and his balls, Nova's Ult, Nyx's Chaos, etc, are all based around spamming them to get the most out of them. Sure, there are a few frames where you don't need to spam, but for a lot of frames spamming powers is exactly what you're supposed to do with them.

You have to make sacrifices in modding in order to do that. Even then you will still run out if you spam. That's the point. 

[izzatuw]

You have to make sacrifices in modding in order to do that. Even then you will still run out if you spam. That's the point.

You sacrifice survivability mods for efficiency, duration range and strength mods. I think those are justifiable sacrifices.

[NyxCrab]

You have to make sacrifices in modding in order to do that. Even then you will still run out if you spam. That's the point. 

There aren't very many sacrifices you have to make. You may have to lower your duration to get the most out it, but full effeciency with fleeting and streamline gives you a low duration that even if you build duration, it's still just barely low enough to keep being spammed and it costs no energy to use. Trinities abilities are balanced in a sorta similar, sorta different way, if you want to get the most of EV you end up being a squishy spammer who, while you can hit pretty much everyone on the map with EV, doesn't have any way to survive later on as she simply can't take all that much damage, or you build her for tank so then she can't die but then your EV doesn't have enough range to hit most people that aren't near you.

Edited October 12, 2015 by NyxCrab

[Heidrek]

 

Let me ask this. What reason is there to nerf anything ever? If you can come up with one Trinity falls into it. 

 

 

Well of life is CC making the target unable to take any action. Energy vampire will kill a lvl 100 heavy with absolutely no mods. 

 

in a crowd on enemies that's a no no. you'll run out of energy fast, and blessing will run out. your energy will drop faster than you can press 4. better using your gun at that point.

[LilLemay]

Hasn't Trin been nerfed enough? aren't we on like Trin 6.0 or something? 

 

Edit: I'm not counting Trin p as one of those changes

Edited October 12, 2015 by LilLemay

[Kolos1001]

Let's talk Trinity.... in the proper subforum > In General Discussion

No feedback = don't post here.

The entire thread is feedback idk what you're talking about. 

 

You sacrifice survivability mods for efficiency, duration range and strength mods. I think those are justifiable sacrifices.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say with this. I agree corrupted mods are balanced. Trinity has no sacrifices for infinite energy. 

 

There aren't very many sacrifices you have to make. You may have to lower your duration to get the most out it, but full effeciency with fleeting and streamline gives you a low duration that even if you build duration, it's still just barely low enough to keep being spammed and it costs no energy to use. Trinities abilities are balanced in a different way, if you want to get the most of EV you end up being a squishy spammer who, while you can hit pretty much everyone on the map with EV, doesn't have any way to survive later on as she simply can't take all that much damage, or you build her for tank so then she can't die but then your EV doesn't have enough range to hit most people that aren't near you.

You say to "get the most" Which isn't the issue. Sure min maxing breaks the game harder but it's not necessary. You can still supply your entire team with unlimited energy with any build. Even base EV has a decent range. 

 

 

Hasn't Trin been nerfed enough? aren't we on like Trin 6.0 or something? 

 

Edit: I'm not counting Trin p as one of those changes

I'm not aware of any nerfs outside the inf invulnerability for entire team. I may be wrong idk. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kolos1001

[izzatuw]

The entire thread is feedback idk what you're talking about.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say with this. I agree corrupted mods are balanced. Trinity has no sacrifices for infinite energy.

You say to "get the most" Which isn't the issue. Sure min maxing breaks the game harder but it's not necessary. You can still supply your entire team with unlimited energy with any build. Even base EV has a decent range.

A Blessing build seriously hurts the Trin's EV range and since most Survival players split into pairs of 2 or even try to solo it's difficult for Trin to actually EV a whole squad.

Can we get a screen shot of how much you used Trinity?

[LilLemay]

 

The entire thread is feedback idk what you're talking about. 

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say with this. I agree corrupted mods are balanced. Trinity has no sacrifices for infinite energy. 

 

You say to "get the most" Which isn't the issue. Sure min maxing breaks the game harder but it's not necessary. You can still supply your entire team with unlimited energy with any build. Even base EV has a decent range. 

 

 

I'm not aware of any nerfs outside the inf invulnerability for entire team. I may be wrong idk. 

 

maybe nerf wasn't the word, just changes overall, I've been invested in this game since before Trin came out, and I got her like, two days after she did. Then I never touched her again till like, U15 and I was like, what is this, this isn't Trinity

Edited October 12, 2015 by LilLemay

[NyxCrab]

You say to "get the most" Which isn't the issue. Sure min maxing breaks the game harder but it's not necessary. You can still supply your entire team with unlimited energy with any build. Even base EV has a decent range. 

Is EV broke? A little bit, but that's more of an issue with the energy system itself, as with maxed out effeciency even an unmodded EV can give you enough energy to use your ult a few times. That said, I don't think Trinity is deserving of a nerf, as if EV was awful Trinity herself would become undesirable to have in a party, as her 1st just flat out sucks, her 2nd, if it was nerfed, wouldn't give enough energy to be worthwhile, and link and blessing would be pretty much the same. It's also important to point out that every frame that's considered "meta" has an ability or two that is broken in some way, so it makes sense that Trinity would retain this. Is she deserving of a nerf? Maybe. But if we wanted to nerf her you would also have to change other frames with broken abilities as well. Or fix the modding system as that's where a lot of these problems come from.

[Witcherlet]

All the verbal acrobatics in the world isn't going to change that you have no answer for why completely removing cost for the entire team is balanced. And you seem to be the one attempting to derail the thread because you don't want your main nerfed. I honestly wish you'd just respond to the question

 

Why is removing the cost for abilities permanently balanced in any way?

First of all, the cost is always there. If you suck and energy management not even a party consisting 2 Trins will save your room cleaning abilities.

 

Secondly, what DelialFallen tried to say is that Trinity can be EASILY substituted by energy pods and droppable energy orbs if the players KNOW how to manage their energy. Trinity is perhaps a must in camping strategies and raids but in a regular gameplay and even regular endless mission runs she is not really in a center of attention, she is welcomed but she's not a must.

 

Thirdly, EV is in a way balanced because in an efficient Trinity build it has its drawbacks. If you want to power your team through whole 40 minutes you sacrifice your survivability with the negative duration and power range. If you want to have a decent or best DR with Bless you dump all mod space on duration and survival mods often sacrificing power range. It's a thing you fail to comprehend apparently.

 

With pure EV build to power your party with "infinite energy" your Bless and Link last few seconds so you can't even think about 99% DR. The other way around, pure Blessing build really hurts Trin's range so she mostly powers herself using energy as her 2nd HP bar with QT+Rage combo to not die and hit 4th skill the right time.

[Kolos1001]

A Blessing build seriously hurts the Trin's EV range and since most Survival players split into pairs of 2 or even try to solo it's difficult for Trin to actually EV a whole squad.

Can we get a screen shot of how much you used Trinity?

I don't see how my personal preferences have anything to do with balance. Sorry. 

 

Again the game is not balanced around player mistakes and survival. Idk why so many people seem to think that's how it works. 

 

 

Is EV broke? A little bit, but that's more of an issue with the energy system itself, as with maxed out effeciency even an unmodded EV can give you enough energy to use your ult a few times. That said, I don't think Trinity is deserving of a nerf, as if EV was awful Trinity herself would become undesirable to have in a party, as her 1st just flat out sucks, her 2nd, if it was nerfed, wouldn't give enough energy to be worthwhile, and link and blessing would be pretty much the same. It's also important to point out that every frame that's considered "meta" has an ability or two that is broken in some way, so it makes sense that Trinity would retain this. Is she deserving of a nerf? Maybe. But if we wanted to nerf her you would also have to change other frames with broken abilities as well. Or fix the modding system as that's where a lot of these problems come from.

I don't want EV to be awful I want it to not be broken. If they did nerf it into being unplayable I would not be happy in the slightest. I just want it to not be on the same level as a game exploit which it currently is. 

 

Again my suggestion would be to make it so EV doesn't restore her own energy.So a blessing build wouldn't be able to sustain herself infinitely like it does now. And so that an EV build would still be useful to the team but she might actually want to wait between casts instead of spamming it with absolutely no consequence. 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kolos1001

[izzatuw]

I don't see how my personal preferences have anything to do with balance. Sorry.

Again the game is not balanced around player mistakes and survival. Idk why so many people seem to think that's how it works.

It doesn't but knowing how much you used something gives a good amount of credibility to your statements. For example, on release week of Fallout 4 I say the game flat out sucks, it's horrible, low graphics, sucky story and this is my final review but I only gathered this from merely watching some gameplay here and there.

Thus making my review have little to no credibility. You refusing to give info on how much you used Trin might decrease your credibility for current and future posts.

[Kolos1001]

It doesn't but knowing how much you used something gives a good amount of credibility to your statements. For example, on release week of Fallout 4 I say the game flat out sucks, it's horrible, low graphics, sucky story and this is my final review but I only gathered this from merely watching some gameplay here and there.

Thus making my review have little to no credibility. You refusing to give info on how much you used Trin might decrease your credibility for current and future posts.

I don't think any of my frames have over 14%. Loki was my stater frame so the stats are skewed because I played him for a very long time before I could afford/get new frames. 

 

That being said I have/can use trinity I currently run an EV build because it's broken. I used to run blessing before the nerf when it was also broken.