Let's Talk Trinity

[Attel_Malagate]

 

It's beta. If you are expecting everything to stay the same and never get changed you'll be extremely disappointment. 

 

As for U18. If the problem of infinite energy is getting addressed trin will be nerfed anyways so yea...sorry. 

 

Hyperbole. 

 

Stating that "its beta" doesn't make what i said less true: balance is nothing compared to enjoyment, and when you put up an entire buisness model based on your "beta" let me tell you "beta" or no it better not make players angry, while i would agree with you if we where in a PVP game, a PVE game doesn't need as much balancing, in fact, just as Volinus7 said, balance to a certain point becomes not only unnecessary but toxic to the game, let players have fun, put up a clan squad to play hard mode as your earlyest conveniance but don't force poeple to play the way you want.

[Volinus7]

OP keeps using the words like "balance" and "game breaking" without any contexts.
What does "balance" mean for OP?
All damage abilities should have same range/damage/cost for balance?
How should this game be played to not "break" it?
Does "Perma CC" break the game?
Does "Perma Invisibility" break the game?

Did you use those words just for your own convenience to support your own preferences and justify them?
Your reasons to nerf trinity hold neither weight nor credibility if you cannot fully cover the context.

If you have ever used trinity in high lvl contents, you will see it yourself that blessing is not a guaranteed godmode it carries high risk of QT stunlock and one shot KO even with link.
EV doesn't make nuker viable but 4CP does.
1-2Combo is not practical in either EV or Blessing build due to the amount of enemies.
None of your "theoretical daydream" about trinity is real.

You even fail to see that the frame that has the highest amount of trivialized contents is Loki.
Loki can sustain invisibility indefinitely and still has surplus energy for disarm in wide area.
Rough calculation he has 0.0658 surplus per second but in-game it is rounded up results in much more energy.
Nothing targets Loki, anything with guns will be disarmed, any melee units will be drawn by decoy.
Yet no one called for Loki nerf why? Because they satisfied and considered it balanced, their standard is high enough to say "Loki is not OP" and the same goes for trinity.

 

 

Gmag/Mesa change happened because it eased the grind too much nothing to do with balance at all.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Volinus7

[Kolos1001]

Stating that "its beta" doesn't make what i said less true: balance is nothing compared to enjoyment, and when you put up an entire buisness model based on your "beta" let me tell you "beta" or no it better not make players angry, while i would agree with you if we where in a PVP game, a PVE game doesn't need as much balancing, in fact, just as Volinus7 said, balance to a certain point becomes not only unnecessary but toxic to the game, let players have fun, put up a clan squad to play hard mode as your earlyest conveniance but don't force poeple to play the way you want.

DE does not seem to share your opinions on that matter. That's why there is a feedback part of the forums. 

[Trvldl]

Trinity can't be both near invincible and kill anything regardless of level in 2 seconds at the same time. OP is obviously trying to trick someone.

 

I find it fine to be able to kill one target every 2 seconds with scaling damage while getting energy, that is nowhere near gamebreaking because takes all of the time and attention just to maintain abilities, there is no time to reload even.

 

If we remove energy gains most builds with max blind rage will become unusable and we still need at least some way to battle that infinite enemy scaling. 

 

Blessing, to become as good as OP claims, already takes some very special setup and more concentration than most other frames require and you can no longer kill or supply energy fast on higher levels with EV. I think that is absolutely fine for 1 squad slot, which can be filled with cc and direct damage instead.

 

Once again some very vocal minority want to achieve their goals not for balance's sake but for their own egoistic satisfaction.

OP, go fight enemy scaling and horrible mechanics like invul phases on manics first, talk frame balance later if you aren't in minority that I've mentioned.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Trvldl

[PKommander]

The whole point of this discussion is non-existent, you can't have both "godmode" as you guys call it and insta 2 sec kill on anything and here's why:

- in order to get a instakill in 2 seconds or at least in a reasonable amount of time with 1-2 synergy, you need to have a low duration build

- in order to get a reasonably long "godmode", you need a duration based build

any crossover build is going to take ages to kill a single mob with 1-2 and is not going to have enough "godmode" duration to compare it with hacking.

Face it, you can't have both things at the same time viably, so please, discuss real issues and not non-existent ones.

[ShortCat]

EV in its current state needsd to go. It is "loved" by many and my post will get a lot of hate, but turning Trinity in GMag 2.0 is happaning right now.

[Trvldl]

EV in its current state is fine and should stay because it does not play the game for you.

[izzatuw]

EV in its current state needsd to go. It is "loved" by many and my post will get a lot of hate, but turning Trinity in GMag 2.0 is happaning right now.

In what way??

[TheBrsrkr]

In what way??

Feed the [insert ability that can be fed that does something stupidly broken]

[izzatuw]

Feed the [insert ability that can be fed that does something stupidly broken]

I think the main problem is how we lack other abilities that give decent amount of energy.

[Trvldl]

2 frames having a synergy =/= stupidly broken. All stupidly broken abilites are either very cheap or self sufficient. See greedy pull before nerf or blessing when it had 100% damage resistance.

[Unholyrequiem]

The issue with balancing game play is that we have ways to feed ourselves an infinite loop of energy thereby giving us access to all of our abilities without any refrain so that we can nuke freely without any consequence or push a panic button. Like Frost spamming his globe eternally, Valkyr staying immortal only leaving to feed herself a pancake, Loki's radial disarm etc, Saryn's miasma etc. 

 

It's not that feeding yourself infinite energy on its own is overpowered though. It's the combination of energy efficiency and infinite energy that allow a care free game style with momentary thought. Not to mention the growing pools of energy with prime versions having easily over 500 energy with flow. 

 

I remember being careful with how I used my energy when I started Warframe, how I actually watched how much energy I was using and only brought forth my ultimate when the time was right or that it was necessary as Loki. This was then I started however, and now I simply couldn't care less about how my energy goes, if it runs out I can simply pancake it. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Unholyrequiem

[TheBrsrkr]

I think the main problem is how we lack other abilities that give decent amount of energy.

That's not a bad thing. Remember that these abilities were designed to function exactly as they are; nukes. Problem is, we're firing nukes like machine guns because of (but not limited to) Trinity, and it's not really good for the future. Or even the present.

[Unholyrequiem]

That's not a bad thing. Remember that these abilities were designed to function exactly as they are; nukes. Problem is, we're firing nukes like machine guns because of (but not limited to) Trinity, and it's not really good for the future. Or even the present.

To be honest it's not trinity or pancakes. But it's the combination of efficiency combined with rising energy pools and rapid energy recovery methods.

[izzatuw]

That's not a bad thing. Remember that these abilities were designed to function exactly as they are; nukes. Problem is, we're firing nukes like machine guns because of (but not limited to) Trinity, and it's not really good for the future. Or even the present.

But there's also energy restores, which can regen 100 energy per pulse. What's better is that every frame can use it and they'll regain energy and if you're not equipping Trinity you can manually put one anytime you want. By the time you consider them you'll already consider the requirements to build 10 of them trivial.

[Unholyrequiem]

But there's also energy restores, which can regen 100 energy per pulse. What's better is that every frame can use it and they'll regain energy and if you're not equipping Trinity you can manually put one anytime you want. By the time you consider them you'll already consider the requirements to build 10 of them trivial.

Yush if trinity's abilities existed without efficiency or viciously oversized energy pools I wouldn't consider her overpowered in the slightest,

 

Call me an extremist if you will but I think energy cost of abilities need to be looked at and the removal of energy restores necessary.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Unholyrequiem

[TheBrsrkr]

To be honest it's not trinity or pancakes. But it's the combination of efficiency combined with rising energy pools and rapid energy recovery methods.

Even without efficiency, EV is pretty outrageous. The most an ability can cost is 155 energy, and EV can get you that and more pretty easily. And that's at absolute maximum, which it almost never is. It's not inherently bad though, it just needs to be less instant lump sum to your ROFLstomp meter.

[Unholyrequiem]

Even without efficiency, EV is pretty outrageous. The most an ability can cost is 155 energy, and EV can get you that and more pretty easily. And that's at absolute maximum, which it almost never is. It's not inherently bad though, it just needs to be less instant lump sum to your ROFLstomp meter.

Think of it this way.

 

If I have Frost right she can grant me approximately 3 avalanches to spam without efficiency.

 

With efficiency that's 12 avalanches.  

 

Energy expenditure in the long run becomes trivial with efficiency. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Unholyrequiem

[Kolos1001]

But there's also energy restores, which can regen 100 energy per pulse. What's better is that every frame can use it and they'll regain energy and if you're not equipping Trinity you can manually put one anytime you want. By the time you consider them you'll already consider the requirements to build 10 of them trivial.

"well consumables exist" is not a defense for why an ABILITY is broken or not. Consumables function under a different set of rules. 

 

 

Think of it this way.

 

If I have Frost right she can grant me approximately 3 avalanches to spam without efficiency.

 

With efficiency that's 12 avalanches.  

 

Energy expenditure in the long run becomes trivial with efficiency. 

True but that's one person building for efficiency specifically. Frost is also a special case because there is no downside to using fleeting expertise on him. 

 

Trinity allows the other players to build horribly inefficient and still never run out of energy...ever. No matter how much you spam. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Kolos1001

[TheBrsrkr]

But there's also energy restores, which can regen 100 energy per pulse. What's better is that every frame can use it and they'll regain energy and if you're not equipping Trinity you can manually put one anytime you want. By the time you consider them you'll already consider the requirements to build 10 of them trivial.

Energy restores are a similarly bad thing, but you can get more, faster from EV. I'll never understand why we can have so many energy restores, or restores in general. 50 would be fine, 100 would be a step too far, but 200? Why would you need so many in any situation?

Think of it this way.

If I have Frost right she can grant me approximately 3 avalanches to spam without efficiency.

With efficiency that's 12 avalanches.

Energy expenditure in the long run becomes trivial with efficiency.

That doesn't mean that nothing should be done about it, though. Even if efficiency wasn't ridiculous, it would still be a problem.

[DelialFallen]

The issue does not reside in Trinity's toolkit.  It may facilitate some instances of spamming abilities, but there is plenty of energy orb drops in single room mission (from the high concentration of enemies) to keep a group regularly fed on energy.  Then there is Equilibrium and a Nekros or Oberon, which amounts to the same result.  That is why Mag's Greedy Pull got changed.

 

What Trinity offers is convenience in that the energy supply comes from a player who can move about if needed instead of moving around one's self to pick up the orbs, or having to drop constant energy plates.

 

If the issue of contention is energy (as appears likely considering the changes to Greedy Pull mechanics), then ought it not be more constructive to open a discussion about that instead of singling out those Frames whose toolkits provide some form of energy return (Nekros provides quite a bit of energy to those with Equilibrium equipped, in the right context)?

 

If it is so, and some or many players find the mechanics of energy in the game being troublesome, I propose they begin a thread to discuss that issue in depth instead.

[izzatuw]

"well consumables exist" is not a defense for why an ABILITY is broken or not. Consumables function under a different set of rules.

But they both function for the same purpose. Like a lot more than you think, I think a large restore has 4 pulses? Doesn't EV have 3? EV with R8 Transient and maxed Intensify it gives around 200 energy.

A large energy restore gives 300-400?

Also your idea about EV not giving any energy to the caster is dumb as heck. Any solo player will have 1 absolutely useless beyond comprehension ability.

[Unholyrequiem]

 

What Trinity offers is convenience in that the energy supply comes from a player who can move about if needed instead of moving around one's self to pick up the orbs, or having to drop constant energy plates.

It's not just convenience. It's literally game changing. Nekros/hydroid and whoever else simply causes energy orbs to spawn and it's still easy to run out of energy even in these situations where as trinity provides a consistent supply of energy all through out. It's more  than simply not picking up orbs, it's more she generates her own supply that can sustain an entire match for hours on end potentially speaking.

 

It laymen's terms, the frames you mentioned simply increase the amount of energy available, trinity allows that to happen infinitely. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Unholyrequiem

[Kolos1001]

But they both function for the same purpose. Like a lot more than you think, I think a large restore has 4 pulses? Doesn't EV have 3? EV with R8 Transient and maxed Intensify it gives around 200 energy.

A large energy restore gives 300-400?

Also your idea about EV not giving any energy to the caster is dumb as heck. Any solo player will have 1 absolutely useless beyond comprehension ability.

Why do you want a support frame to be godlike as a solo frame as well? 

 

Also calling people dumb is not exactly constructive. 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Kolos1001

[Trvldl]

Lets remove more synergy from the game and with that a lot of frame build options will be gone, some missions will be less played, because actual problems with scaling enemies and killing faster as best mean of progression will still remain intact.