Let's Talk Trinity

[Eipsonz]

I main self harm trinity and i agree, she is maybe too strong compared to other frames, but if you want to nerf/rework her, then you should start by reworking enemies first. 99% dmg reduction is a must in endgame (and i don't mean 40min in T4Surv, lol). And as for EV build and "wombo WoL+EV Combo", it's only a single target, i get that she can nuke ANYTHING but when that kind of damage surpases let's say Saryn... or anything + Nova (which should be normal to make a optimal 4 frame combo for a mission) there is just too many enemies to kill with this combo, so that doesn't matter. People just want to make every frame look and act the same, let's have some diversity. If you don't want Bless/EV trin in your group, then just DON'T add them (like there are so many trin players out there...), that's why you have clans and alliances... (._.) Trinity aside from banshee is the only REAL SUPPORT frame, we need more like her, not less...

Edited October 11, 2015 by Eipsonz

[Kolos1001]

I main self harm trinity and i agree, she is maybe too strong compared to other frames, but if you want to nerf/rework her, then you should start by reworking enemies first. 99% dmg reduction is a must in endgame (and i don't mean 40min in T4Surv, lol). And as for EV build and "wombo WoL+EV Combo", it's only a single target, i get that she can nuke ANYTHING but when that kind of damage surpases let's say Saryn... or anything + Nova (which should be normal to make a optimal 4 frame combo for a mission) there is just too many enemies to kill with this combo, so that doesn't matter. People just want to make every frame look and act the same, let's have some diversity. If you don't want Bless/EV trin in your group, then just DON'T add them (like there are so many trin players out there...), that's why you have clans and alliances... (._.)

I think for any nerfs a criteria should be in place. "End game" is currently set by players. DE hasn't really stated what they consider endgame to be as far as I know. I do know you can only simulate up to lvl 100s in the simulator. Also that seems to be where raid enemy levels are at. 

 

All I'm saying is if making the entire game trivial is considered OP then trinity is OP. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by Kolos1001

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I main self harm trinity and i agree, she is maybe too strong compared to other frames, but if you want to nerf/rework her, then you should start by reworking enemies first. 

 

Ideally, enemy scaling should be reworked before we do any serious re-balancing with any frame or weapon. We have to know what level we're balancing for before we can balance something effectively. The changes I proposed earlier are more to just remove the cheese factor than to seriously look at the frame's power. U18 promises a rework to enemy scaling, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

When DE nerfs things they overdo it, I'd rather have an OP frame than a worthless one. There are so many OP things in the game, what difference does it make. How would anyone make it past the raid?

 

A worthless frame reduces player choice by 1 frame. An OP frame reduces player choice by (total number of frames)-1 frames. It's pretty clear to see which one is worse for the game as a whole.

 

Enemy scaling and game difficulty need to be deeply revisited, so once U18 happens, we should have a much clearer idea of what is and isn't balanced.

Edited October 11, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[Eipsonz]

Then let's just wait for enemy rework, then we can revisit trin nerfs/rework. It's just amazing, before trinity prime there were like no mentions of her, like she didn't existed, now people have woken up. There is so small number of players who plays trinity becouse they ENJOY playing a support frame and not becouse people WANT EV/Bless trin. Why do you want to take away that from us? Some people want to support the team, to keep them alive and not deal top dmg. We need more real viable support frames, not nerfing ones that exist and BARELY anyone plays them, becouse they WISH to and not that THEY HAVE to, becouse it's needed.

[(XBOX)Exon Reflex]

WoL and Ev doesnt kill anything... -_- 

[TheBrsrkr]

WoL and Ev doesnt kill anything... -_-

In can kill literally anything in the game, it's just time consuming and really boring.

[Eipsonz]

WoL and Ev doesnt kill anything... -_- 

 

XD, it kills everything, but you have to know how to use it.

 

And that's the problem, people who have NO knowledge speak on nerf/buff thread.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Eipsonz

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Then let's just wait for enemy rework, then we can revisit trin nerfs/rework. It's just amazing, before trinity prime there were like no mentions of her, like she didn't existed, now people have woken up. There is so small number of players who plays trinity becouse they ENJOY playing a support frame and not becouse people WANT EV/Bless trin. Why do you want to take away that from us? Some people want to support the team, to keep them alive and not deal top dmg. We need more real viable support frames, not nerfing ones that exist and BARELY anyone plays them, becouse they WISH to and not that THEY HAVE to, becouse it's needed.

 

If you want to support your team, more power to you. If you want to completely defeat the purpose of even playing this game at all, that's where you run into issues.

 

Why do you even play a shooty game then nothing could possibly threaten you or create the possibility of failure? As I've said about Hysteria, you might as well just change the ability so that when you press 4, you automatically get a mission complete screen.

 

Here are my suggested cheese-removal changes. They are designed to keep Trinity relevant and powerful while not being game-breaking, at least until U18 gives us a better point to balance off of.

 

My suggestions:

-EV 's energy cost is now based on how much it replenishes, always costing X% more energy to cast than the total amount of energy it restores. The value of X can be decreased with efficiency mods, but it's never self-sustaining.

-EITHER Blessing's damage resistance capped at 95% like all other frames OR Blessing will no longer base it's damage resistance off of players who are at 2 health with Quick Thinking. No more infinite god mode CheeseFrame.

Edited October 11, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[TheBrsrkr]

Here are my suggested cheese-removal changes. They are designed to keep Trinity relevant and powerful while not being game-breaking, at least until U18 gives us a better point to balance off of.

My suggestion would be an aura that ticks energy up constantly like Energy Siphon but much faster. The speed would be affected by power strength and the total energy amount by duration. Also raise the cost to 75.

As for blessing, capping DR at 90-95% seems fair enough.

[Cleesus]

Some of you are getting a bit too emotional over this, op is free to voice his opinion on the balance of gear/frames in the game. There are plenty of Valkyr nerf threads on the forums and I dont personally like them nor do I personally feel the need to aggressively react to them.

 

Lets all chill out

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

My suggestion would be an aura that ticks energy up constantly like Energy Siphon but much faster. The speed would be affected by power strength and the total energy amount by duration. Also raise the cost to 75.

 

Interesting. Would this be a toggled ability that replenishes energy of teammates in range at the cost of your own? As long as you couldn't receive energy from any source while the ability was active, I could see this being very viable.

[Eipsonz]

Can someone tell me, WHY are you bothered with bless trin? you don't have to play with one, there's not much trinities anyway, yet you beg for nerfs for a frame, that you barely see or play with. Like i said, if trinity is to be touched, it has to be AFTER enemy rework, or implementaton of a NEW SUPPORT frames, not before (atleast that's my biased opinion). I know 99% blesses are gamebreaking, but how often do you see them in your void runs? Don't be bitter players that have nothing to offer to your team, don't blame trin in CURRENT state of a game, but the state of every other frame. This game's balance is a mess, but do we really should start by trin?

[TheBrsrkr]

Interesting. Would this be a toggled ability that replenishes energy of teammates in range at the cost of your own? As long as you couldn't receive energy from any source while the ability was active, I could see this being very viable.

Hm, I hadn't thought of that. I was planning on keeping it as it is, with casting on enemies and, such, but this is much more interesting.It would need a good conversion rate though.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Can someone tell me, WHY are you bothered with bless trin? you don't have to play with one, there's not much trinities anyway, yet you beg for nerfs for a frame, that you barely see or play with. Like i said, if trinity is to be touched, it has to be AFTER enemy rework, or implementaton of a NEW SUPPORT frames, not before (atleast that's my biased opinion). I know 99% blesses are gamebreaking, but how often do you see them in your void runs? Don't be bitter players that have nothing to offer to your team, don't blame trin in CURRENT state of a game, but the state of every other frame. This game's balance is a mess, but do we really should start by trin?

 

If you yourself admit that it's game-breaking, why don't you want it fixed? Do you support Warframe being broken?

 

Hm, I hadn't thought of that. I was planning on keeping it as it is, with casting on enemies and, such, but this is much more interesting.It would need a good conversion rate though.

 

An issue I was considering is that it would also make EV useless in solo play. To counter this, perhaps it could also have a minor additional effect, such as giving a small reduction to speed and damage of enemies in range.

Edited October 11, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[bakaxy]

Bait threads should get locked immediately... 

 

As others pointed out, you can't instakill + do good blessings/stay alive pretty well. 

Also that instakill you seem to hate so much... It's one enemy of a brigade rolling towards you, when you play higher content. Any weapon is more efficient than trinity killing one with 1-2.

And even with negative duration it takes time to pull off. 

 

Trinity is actually one of the well balanced frames, except for the 99% dmg reduction, which should be capped at 95% like other stuff. 

 

And now go back to your troll cave... 

[Eipsonz]

 

If you yourself admit that it's game-breaking, why don't you want it fixed? Do you support Warframe being broken?

 

 

Like i said, first we have to fix enemy scaling, then we can change 99% dmg reduction trinity builds. For me, she is perfect (ofc i am biased), i have self harm build to keep my party immortal all the time, i have the EV build to feed them more energy than they can spend, and i have my solo melee channeling build with abating link. For me she is so versitile, that nerfing her would be a shame. I REALLY don't mind reworking her (not nerfing in the current state of a game) but first let's fix the game and the enemies, THEN we can GUT the remainders of SUPPORT frames.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Eipsonz

[DelialFallen]

 

If you yourself admit that it's game-breaking, why don't you want it fixed? Do you support Warframe being broken?

 

 

An issue I was considering is that it would also make EV useless in solo play. To counter this, perhaps it could also have a minor additional effect, such as giving a small reduction to speed and damage of enemies in range.

 

 

So it's very powerful.  Okay.

 

Strawman about supporting broken Warframe, check.

 

My suggestion is to leave Trinity as is as her toolkit is 'balanced' around providing group support with heals and energy replenishment. 

 

Making EV an aura would be less active and incredibly boring to 'play'.  Should we not favor activity over passive playstyles?  I mean, Mesa recently got a change for that very reason -- a change I'm sure we can agree makes her a more active Warframe to play.

 

I find your proposed solutions to go against the betterment of the game and perhaps a tiny bit hypocritical.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Like i said, first we have to fix enemy scaling, then we can change 99% dmg reduction trinity builds. For me, she is perfect (ofc i am biased), i have self harm build to keep my party immortal all the time, i have the EV build to feed them more energy than they can spend, and i have my solo channeling build with abating link. For me she is so versitile, that nerfing her would be a shame. I REALLY don't mine reworking her (not nerfing in the current state of a game) but first let's fix the game and the enemies, THEN we can GUT the remainders or SUPPORT frames.

 

Hmm...

 

I guess I can support waiting until enemy scaling is reworked to change Blessing, as I feel much the same way about Zephyr's Turbulence. I think Turbulence is a bit too strong as it is, and I have a balance change in mind for it, but I'm worried about how mandatory Turbulence's current level of protection is for endgame content. Infinite god mode isn't okay, but I'm willing to wait until we know what defines "okay" before we change it.

 

My suggestion is to leave Trinity as is as her toolkit is 'balanced' around providing group support with heals and energy replenishment. 

 

Trinity's toolkit seems to be based around completely defeating the purpose of even playing the game. I'm willing to wait until the enemy scaling rework before we do any serious balance changes, but to say that infinite god mode is okay is just downright absurd. Acquiring infinite god mode is the kind of thing hackers do.

 

Put this situation in the perspective of any other game. What if there was an item in TF2 that gave you an infinite ubercharge when used? What about a class in any MMO of your choosing that got infinite health and could give infinite mana to them and their entire party?

 

Making EV an aura would be less active and incredibly boring to 'play'.  Should we not favor activity over passive playstyles?  I mean, Mesa recently got a change for that very reason -- a change I'm sure we can agree makes her a more active Warframe to play.

 

This is fair enough. I can see how making EV an aura would lead to inactivity. Good point.

 

This doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. Once again, infinite energy for your entire team is the kind of thing I've seen hackers do.

 

I find your proposed solutions to go against the betterment of the game and perhaps a tiny bit hypocritical.

 

How would you go about solving the problem of Trinity making game mechanics redundant and completely defeating the purpose of playing the game?

[TheBrsrkr]

An issue I was considering is that it would also make EV useless in solo play. To counter this, perhaps it could also have a minor additional effect, such as giving a small reduction to speed and damage of enemies in range.

It does make sense, since we are supposed to be leeching from enemies, but even more damage reduction? How will it stack with Link?

[Kolos1001]

Some post have been deleted. 

 

I hope DE going to block his troll.

Only moderators have ability to delete posts. If your post got deleted it probably was either against the rules or provided nothing to the discussion.

 

Hmm...

 

I guess I can support waiting until enemy scaling is reworked to change Blessing, as I feel much the same way about Zephyr's Turbulence. I think Turbulence is a bit too strong as it is, and I have a balance change in mind for it, but I'm worried about how mandatory Turbulence's current level of protection is for endgame content. Infinite god mode isn't okay, but I'm willing to wait until we know what defines "okay" before we change it.

 

 

Trinity's toolkit seems to be based around completely defeating the purpose of even playing the game. I'm willing to wait until the enemy scaling rework before we do any serious balance changes, but to say that infinite god mode is okay is just downright absurd. Acquiring infinite god mode is the kind of thing hackers do.

 

Put this situation in the perspective of any other game. What if there was an item in TF2 that gave you an infinite ubercharge when used? What about a class in any MMO of your choosing that got infinite health and could give infinite mana to them and their entire party?

 

 

This is fair enough. I can see how making EV an aura would lead to inactivity. Good point.

 

This doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. Once again, infinite energy for your entire team is the kind of thing I've seen hackers do.

 

 

How would you go about solving the problem of Trinity making game mechanics redundant and completely defeating the purpose of playing the game?

Holding off "nerf talk" Until U18 dust settles sounds good. 

 

I don't think you can compare these things to PvP games. Priorities in PvP are much different than a co-op game. 

[VampirePirate]

There was plenty of explanations and solutions are something to be discussed. If you have one please share. 

 

Here's a few.

 

Remove EVs damage. Make the amount of energy returned a flat amount not affected by mods. 

Remove the conditional part of blessing and making it a flat amount of damage reduction. Like heal team+80% damage reduction

That is exactly what she was in the first place.  People complained.  Devs changed her.   Where have you been?

[DelialFallen]

Hmm...

 

I guess I can support waiting until enemy scaling is reworked to change Blessing, as I feel much the same way about Zephyr's Turbulence. I think Turbulence is a bit too strong as it is, and I have a balance change in mind for it, but I'm worried about how mandatory Turbulence's current level of protection is for endgame content. Infinite god mode isn't okay, but I'm willing to wait until we know what defines "okay" before we change it.

 

 

Trinity's toolkit seems to be based around completely defeating the purpose of even playing the game. I'm willing to wait until the enemy scaling rework before we do any serious balance changes, but to say that infinite god mode is okay is just downright absurd. Acquiring infinite god mode is the kind of thing hackers do.

 

Put this situation in the perspective of any other game. What if there was an item in TF2 that gave you an infinite ubercharge when used? What about a class in any MMO of your choosing that got infinite health and could give infinite mana to them and their entire party?

 

 

This is fair enough. I can see how making EV an aura would lead to inactivity. Good point.

 

This doesn't mean it shouldn't be changed though. Once again, infinite energy for your entire team is the kind of thing I've seen hackers do.

 

 

How would you go about solving the problem of Trinity making game mechanics redundant and completely defeating the purpose of playing the game?

 

Firstly, I would begin by formulating questions in a way containing less logical fallacies.   Secondly, I would propose there is in fact nothing to solve on this issue as the game is clearly still played with purpose, goals and aims regardless of opinions about abilities.  Thirdly, I would demonstrate the fact by logging into the game, playing the game, having a good time, and use that as evidence to counter.

[izzatuw]

That duration build that gives you massive DR? Good luck killing enemies with the 1+2 combo, it's take 30+ seconds to kill a single enemy.

That negative duration build that insta-kills lvl100 enemies? Good luck staying alive out in the open with a stagnant animation cast.

Can't have both at the same time, I call it balance.

^

This

Also you're not giving the full story OP.

Her 1st is a single target use and is okay at best.

Her 2nd is nice but with a Blessing+Link build your range will be terrible.

Link is great granted you're near an enemy

Blessing's DR is based on how much health you lost. If you really wanted 99% DR you or a teammates health has to be at 1.

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

Firstly, I would begin by formulating questions in a way containing less logical fallacies.   Secondly, I would propose there is in fact nothing to solve on this issue as the game is clearly still played with purpose, goals and aims regardless of opinions about abilities.  Thirdly, I would demonstrate the fact by logging into the game, playing the game, having a good time, and use that as evidence to counter.

 

So by that logic, is it okay for me to pop into a dark sector defense with a god mode and infinite energy hack and go to wave 1000? Since infinite god mode and infinite energy are obviously acceptable things, hacking totally fine as long as I'm still having fun, right?

[TheBrsrkr]

Firstly, I would begin by formulating questions in a way containing less logical fallacies. Secondly, I would propose there is in fact nothing to solve on this issue as the game is clearly still played with purpose, goals and aims regardless of opinions about abilities. Thirdly, I would demonstrate the fact by logging into the game, playing the game, having a good time, and use that as evidence to counter.

Using these metrics, an ability could do literally anything and still be balanced.