Humble Suggestions: Rules Of Thumb For Rebalancing Weapons

[JackBeloved]

Preface:

I'm a long-time player (since U9, woot!) who truly loves Warframe. I love the game, I love the lore, I love the community. I've watched all the devstreams, and I love that the dev team is so cooperative, appreciative, and stylish (pink shorts, fancy socks, hockey jerseys, afro's...). I have never had the pleasure of personally meeting any of the dev team, but I feel like I know them a little, having been given these little windows into their world.

 

So I am sure that people at DE love what they do, and try to do the best that they can. I in no way wish for anyone to think that I'm belittling, criticizing, or patronizing the professionals at DE. I'm not a professional game designer, and I have no idea how to do all the thousands of things they do to make a game as great as Warframe.

 

So please read the following with this in mind. /preface

 

TL;DR

Weapon effectiveness should be a reflection of build cost and mastery rank requirements, all types of play styles ought to be available with none superior to the others, and other stuff.

 

With The Great Balancing forthcoming from the hands of DEScott himself, wielding the great and mighty Galatine of Buffening and the dread and sometimes necessary Fragor of Nerfing, I imagine that every aspect of every weapon will be open to review and adjustment, maybe even major, fundamental changes. I hope I haven't misunderstood this to be implied by Scott's responses in recent devstreams and the NYC panel's Q&A session to questions about crit percentage and 'required mods' like damage and multi-shot.

 

As a player and as an observer of this community, I here humbly offer some general rules of thumb for how to navigate the dark waters of weapon overhaul. These are at least what I myself feel, at best what they community as a whole is looking for, and at worst a waste of all our time.

 

UPDATE: Apparently, there is some disagreement about this first point. Some people seem to be of the opinion that all weapons should be of the same tier across the entire game. The rest of my points seemed to be echoed, however- especially build costs and variety in play styles.

 

1) There should be a general gradation in overall weapon effectiveness that matches build cost and mastery rank requirements (tiers).

I believe this is something that players expect.

 

Some weapons are not as effective overall* as other weapons, and are therefore easier to acquire and cheaper to make. For example, weapons whose blueprints are available in the market and whose crafting costs are comparatively basic (credits, nano spores, ferrite, rubedo, the one rare resource like gallium or morphics) should be lower tier, because they are the first things available to new players who are facing lower-level content.

 

Weapons that require clan research, require other weapons as part of the crafting cost, require large sums of rare resources, or are 'special edition' (primes, wraiths, vandals, etc.) are harder to acquire and/or build, and thus players expect the weapon to perform better overall.

 

I would suggest that:

i. 'Special edition' weapons are always superior overall to the normal version, even if they change the weapon's main focus. For example, build the Latron Wraith for crit and the Latron prime for damage, but they're both superior overall to the Latron.

 

ii. Weapons which require other weapons as part of the crafting cost are always somewhat superior overall in stats to the weapon(s) they are made from, even if any one particular stat is the same. Why would we destroy one weapon and spend additional resources to craft a less-effective weapon, besides mastery rank? It doesn't feel fair, it doesn't make sense (from the player's perspective or from a lore perspective), and it's disappointing.

 

iii. Weapons from clan research or with comparatively high crafting costs be more effective overall than introductory and lower-tier weapons.

 

iv. The higher the effectiveness of the weapon, the higher the cost and mastery rank requirement.

 

*For the sake of this point, all the finer points of what makes a weapon "effective"- damage amount and type, short reload, high fire rate, crit, status, etc.- are all taken together (I'll discuss them at greater depth in the sections below) and weighed against the weapon's limitations- long reload, magazine size, range, projectile flight speed, low accuracy, etc. So, for example, a high-damage sniper rifle with a slow fire rate may be just as effective overall as a high-fire-rate dual machine pistol with a low crit chance and accuracy and a moderate amount of damage. In other words, at a given level, one weapon can kill just as many enemies in the same amount of time as the other, regardless of differences in individual stats. A weapon is considered more effective to the degree that its benefits outweigh its limitations, and there are no overly constraining factors on play (such as "this weapon is unstoppable for about 10 enemies, and then I run out of ammo in my very small ammo pool" cough wraith twin vipers...)

 

2) There should be an overall variety of damage types available (IPS/elemental).

Part of the genius of Warframe is the emphasis on customizing and tailoring your loadout to suit your play style and/or the enemies you face. This is fun. This drives players to play more, to spend more, and to try new things. We want to use this to our advantage, and not let it provide room to disappoint. Between impact, puncture, slash, heat, toxin, cold, electric, corrosive, blast, viral, magnetic, gas, and radiation, we have a full 13 types of damage at our disposal, all with their own unique benefits and drawbacks.

 

Most of the following is more or less already happening in game, but I'll go ahead and spell it out for the record.

 

I suggest that:

i. We should make an effort to provide each damage type in all weapon type (melee, shotgun, rifle, pistol, etc.). I can already see that this sort of thing is being pursued, but perhaps with the rebalance we could take special attention to provide for this. Since elemental damage can be added by modding, this mostly applies for IPS damage.

 

ii. Perhaps elemental weapons could be more or less tied to factions? Infested weapons favor toxin/viral/gas, Grineer weapons favor heat/blast/corrosive, Corpus weapons favor electric/magnetic/radiation. Again, this is more or less already being followed, and again, take this chance to really solidify the trend into lore, so that players know what to expect (with a few special surprises thrown in - "what's this, a heat-based infested sword? Cool!")

 

iii. Lasers (corpus weapons) seem like they should do heat/radiation/electric/magnetic(plasma) damage. Why do some do slash damage? I'm cool with the Dera doing puncture, but shouldn't those little plasma bolts do a ton of heat damage once they get into the Grineer's armor?

 

3) There should be equality and variety among weapon mechanics (raw damage/crit/status/fire rate/etc.).

This is, I believe, there the most work is needed when it comes to weapon balance (well, maybe tied with weapon performance vs. cost).

 

There are a lot of ways weapons can kill. High raw damage. High crit chance and damage. High fire rate (and correspondingly high ammo pool/pick ups). High status chance and helpful status effect.

 

As it stands now, there doesn't seem to be a cohesive balance across all these methods of killing our enemies. Status builds seem like they're mostly for cc fun (except corrosive and viral), and the fire rate/ammo ratio renders high-fire-rate game play nonviable. Among raw damage and crit builds, there are some individual stars (Boltor P, Soma, Dual Ichors), but the game play mechanics themselves aren't really setting these apart- it's the stat number itself being as high as it is. If viral procs instantly killed enemies regardless of level, then high-status viral weapons would outclass all others.

 

So, I suggest:

i. We should make an effort to provide each weapon mechanic in all weapon types (melee, shotgun, rifle, pistol, etc.). Like shotguns and crit? Rifles and damage? Pistols and fire rate? Or any other combination? There ought to be a weapon for you, and most importantly, your combination shouldn't be any better or worse overall than another combination that isn't fun for you. So...

 

ii. The effectiveness of each mechanic needs to be assessed, and then all the mechanics need to be leveled evenly so that none has a clear advantage in most cases over the rest. It should fall to a question of preference, not necessity. In general, within a given tier, people should be free to play in the style that they find fun without fearing that they're being outclassed by a different mechanic that they don't enjoy.

 

4) Unique mechanics are welcome, but need to be balanced.

Rockets. Tentacles. Grenades. Frisbees of death. Freeze rays. Cubes of death. Homing bullets. Warframe is awesome.

 

Some of these unique weapon mechanics suffer a little, though. Travel time. Self damage. Ammo consumption. Accuracy. In some cases, these drawbacks are effectively weighted by the weapon's performance (Tonkor master race), but in some they aren't (Buzzl- no, Pantera).

 

So, after all the previous is weighed and considered, I suggest that:

i. Unique weapon mechanics seriously consider the drawbacks to the mechanics and overall effectiveness is adjusted accordingly within the tier. For example, given the build costs, more people ought to be playing the Paracyst. And they would, if the burst-fire and weird alt-fire were offset by enough damage (raw/crit/status/whatever) to make up for them. What if the alt-fire tentacle reduced armor by an appreciable amount, or stole life, or just did some straight damage? As it is now, a single-enemy knockdown with a slow animation, it's seen as more of a hindrance than a help.

 

5) Mods. The ultimate question: should a weapon's 'play style' (damage type, mechanics, unique systems) be 'baked in' to each weapon, and mods merely increase the stats thereof, or should we be able to adjust a weapon's entire 'play style' through the use of mods?

The former gives a much much higher number of possible weapons before things start repeating themselves: (13 damage types) x (16 weapon types*) x (however many tiers - 3? 4?) = over 624 weapons with no overlap.

 

The latter gives players more control over their whole Warframe experience. You like the way the Paracyst looks, but want a high-fire-rate slash/heat weapon? There are mods for that. Feel more like high-damage sniping? There are mods for that, too. Prefer a crit build? Mod for it.

 

In this paradigm, any weapon could be used in any play style by adding or removing mods. To some extent, we already do this (with elemental mods), but if this is embraced, we'd need to redo a great many mods from the ground up. Probably, corrupted-style mods would be the way to do it best- lose some of one stat to gain more in another. Less fire rate but more damage per shot, etc. Maybe even pure mechanical mods- "makes the weapon semi-automatic," etc.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure what the answer is, or even if there is one. But this is an important question to ask while re-examining weapon balance and mods. Probably, the best is somewhere in the middle, like how we have some stats built in to weapons but mods can alter things like elemental damage- just how far do we want to go with that, and in what direction? Mods that let us transfer IPS damage from one type to another? Trade crit for fire rate or raw damage?

 

By looking at this concept, we can help weapon balance and push variety to its ultimate range.

 

All that said, I am extremely glad that weapon/mod balance is being looked at, and I am supremely grateful for a game like Warframe and dev's like DE. Keep up the good work!

Edited October 26, 2015 by JackBeloved

[7grims]

So you are the kind of ppl that as long as a variant exists, it should just be a direct superior to the regular.

And you talk about balance, when from the start, this believe as already been compromised, there is no "balance everything",and "make everything worth" proposition, if you set the regular weapons to be dead in the water, and they will be inferior to all variants.

 

The regular gear is only 90% of everything that does exist.

The game wont be balanced if the few variants (prime, wraith, vandal, prisma, etc), are the few that are better and superior.

No, it would only make ppl only use those variants, leaving the majority of all weapons (the regulars) as inferior and unused.

 

ridiculous.

-1

Edited October 25, 2015 by 7grims

[JackBeloved]

there is no "balance everything",and "make everything worth" proposition

 

Well, yeah, if you read the part about having tiers of weapons... I would guess, then, that you are the kind of person who thinks that all weapons should be just as viable as any other weapon, meaning that there are no tiers and that the weapons a new player has access to will be on the exact same level as the weapons that veteran players have devoted lots of time and energy into acquiring?

 

See, in a game with progression, then there must be some level of, well, progression. If enemies get harder as you go farther, then your equipment must get better, too. This doesn't mean that there are "worthless" weapons- every weapon has worth for the level at which it's first accessible. Just because a weapon that's available to players in Mercury or Venus isn't as good as something that takes a while to get and craft doesn't mean it's worthless. It's very worthwhile while you're putting in the time to get and craft the upgrade.

 

But I think it's silly to look at a game like Warframe and expect that the Mk-1 Braton be just as good as a Braton Prime. Then why spend any time getting the Braton Prime? Your concept of "all weapons being equal" fits in other types of games with less crafting/rpg elements, maybe a good casual arena shooter where players just pick a pre-made character and run around fighting other pre-made characters all the time. Or a FPS like Halo where enemies are more or less the same throughout the whole game.

 

But that's not Warframe. Or any game with character leveling and progression.

[KalastRaven]

So you are the kind of ppl that as long as a variant exists, it should just be a direct superior to the regular.

And you talk about balance, when from the start, this believe as already been compromised, there is no "balance everything",and "make everything worth" proposition, if you set the regular weapons to be dead in the water, and they will be inferior to all variants.

 

The regular gear is only 90% of everything that does exist.

The game wont be balanced if the few variants (prime, wraith, vandal, prisma, etc), are the few that are better and superior.

No, it would only make ppl only use those variants, leaving the majority of all weapons (the regulars) as inferior and unused.

 

ridiculous.

-1

 

Prisma, Wraith, Prime, and Vandal should be better than vanilla.  

 

Vanilla should be better than Mk 1.

 

What's the point of having variant weapons if they are all equal.   Why not just call it the "Prime Skin" then?

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

Something need change in warframe , maybe with more intelligent master rank balance , or introducing , min - max conclave in all maps to avoid high lvls killing all and babies crying for nerf in forum, or decrease xp gained in low lvl maps for high lvls conclave or mr , i really dont know , but this actually model is totally unbalanced only prejudicing who invest more time in char or weapons 

I dont agree with prime weapons have same mr lvl than normals versions too. Is perfect normal in all games high lvls be strong then lows is a natural order of nature , this s a incentive for play, but this actual format s frustrate , you spend lot time in char or weapons , spend catalysts and reactors , lot formas... And lot noobs invade forum crying for nerf and DE do for "balance".

[7grims]

Well, yeah, if you read the part about having tiers of weapons... I would guess, then, that you are the kind of person who thinks that all weapons should be just as viable as any other weapon, meaning that there are no tiers and that the weapons a new player has access to will be on the exact same level as the weapons that veteran players have devoted lots of time and energy into acquiring?

 

See, in a game with progression, then there must be some level of, well, progression. If enemies get harder as you go farther, then your equipment must get better, too. This doesn't mean that there are "worthless" weapons- every weapon has worth for the level at which it's first accessible. Just because a weapon that's available to players in Mercury or Venus isn't as good as something that takes a while to get and craft doesn't mean it's worthless. It's very worthwhile while you're putting in the time to get and craft the upgrade.

 

But I think it's silly to look at a game like Warframe and expect that the Mk-1 Braton be just as good as a Braton Prime. Then why spend any time getting the Braton Prime? Your concept of "all weapons being equal" fits in other types of games with less crafting/rpg elements, maybe a good casual arena shooter where players just pick a pre-made character and run around fighting other pre-made characters all the time. Or a FPS like Halo where enemies are more or less the same throughout the whole game.

 

But that's not Warframe. Or any game with character leveling and progression.

 

Prisma, Wraith, Prime, and Vandal should be better than vanilla.  

 

Vanilla should be better than Mk 1.

 

What's the point of having variant weapons if they are all equal.   Why not just call it the "Prime Skin" then?

 

All these weapons exist so players can build their arsenal and create their unique sets, and gear combinations for players choice.

The point of so many weapons is diversity, like the devs said in the past, they think of warframe as a sandbox were each selects their path and tools.

Just like the mandatory mod issue, that prevented other mods to compete with damage mods, is being solved, and is similar to the issue of that mandatory weapon to achieve meta goals.

Just like some frames were/are overly powerful and OP, they needed a balance, or they become abused toos like greedy-mag and mesa were, these superior weapons share the same issue.

 

Mastery and progression aren't the issue.

To obtain primes, you just have to grind the void, very few things are limited by mastery.

You can even obtain the prime variant of most frames and weapons, before doing the regular gear, there is no progression path in that.

To obtain event weapons you just have to do the event.

These variants are easily acquirable, and in no such time they represent progress, they only make past invested gear obsolete, in comparison to the new variant.

 

If the goal is progress, and to only invest and show interest in variants, then DE should develop only the variants first, and then after that, the regulars could come out, at least we wouldn't fall in those investment traps, and everyone can prance around in gold, cause no one would ever play with regular frames and weapons.

 

 

And KalastRaven, yes, why not just call it Prime skins?

Abilities are copy-pasted, the majority of the frame/weapon model is copy-pasted, then decorated in fine digital gold ornaments, stats are tweeked only for primes (and soon umbras).

You should really ask yourself what is the point of primes, and even whats the point of regulars.

 

The point is:

- fake content, taking players to grind for unneeded stuff

- making investment traps so that players waste money (buying forma, catalyst/reactor, etc) and waste time (re-leveling the same gear several times, creating again fake content) on gear that will be obsolete in the future, and so they can restart their investment again when the variant arrives

- making "90%" of items in the game, simple mastery fodder trash

Edited October 25, 2015 by 7grims

[KalastRaven]

The point of regular weapons is for new players because getting primes usually requires 

 

A) a long grind and high level of advancement through the game

B) a long grind and getting carried

C) friends who will give you stuff

D) platinum

 

I didn't get my first prime for quite some time because I didn't buy it, nor would I allow people to carry me.

 

 

Later, when I bought Prisma Shade, I sold normal Shade because I now had an upgraded version.  Did I care that my old shade had a potato in it?  No.

 

The game has progression.  Not everything you upgrade is equal.  

 

What I, and I believe the OP don't want, is for some weapons of SIMILAR requirement to access, to be vastly superior to other weapons of that same class.  For one prime weapon to be very much above (or very much below) the other primes, or for one basic weapon to be similarly out of line with other basic weapons represents a flaw in balance to me.  Same can be said for clantech weapons, and for some of the more build requirement heavy weaponry, or higher MR weapons.

 

I am reasonably happy with the current direction of Warframe with the exception that sometimes a weapon is randomly far worse than it should be, or crazy good, and feel that outliers should be brought into line.

 

What I believe you want is for all weapons in the game to be equal, so that there is no progression, no increase in power ever.   Sorry, that I can't support.

[BluelitHalo]

They need to put more emphasis on improving the truth of #1 in the game. As it is now, there's zero correlation between the expended effort to obtain a weapon, and the power of it. I can't believe that DE would mess up on this basic element of MMO progression.

[7grims]

-snip-

 

Take a moment and reflect

 

You are in a "please balance weapons" tread, yet you say it is important for some to be better then others.

Well that what you have now, some weapons are good and some are bad, lack of balance.

Yet, it is ok for weapons to be bad or inferior, as long as they aren't variants, or primes.

No much sense here.

 

Why not start being honest and direct:

You want balance, as long as it is in the weapons you like.

As long as it is on primes and variants.

F**k everything else, cause no one cares, and it doesn't matter.

 

You dont want balance, you want buffs on the weapons you own and like, truth be said.

 

 

And why is the boltor and soma behind a mastery lock?

It is for progression yes, but why specifically the boltor and soma?

Because they are unbalanced, they are far superior to other weapons, such as they lock them.

But if we are talking about real balance, the hind or grakatta (2 infamous weapons, cause they are bad), should be as worth and valuable as the boltor and soma, that is the balance we are talking about.

And if there is balanced there is no reason for those to be mastery locked, hence that fake progression path is unveiled.

Much less variants, which the only thing you need to do is get in the void (and fight against the fake difficulty barrier called RNG), or get in a event, and win a superior weapon that comes with a potatoe, and both do not require no progression rank from you to access such places.

 

 

 

And as for:

"A) a long grind and high level of advancement through the game"

Not much grind, when you are new, all prime pieces that drop around are sweet sweet candies, when you have few primes left to acquire that is when its a hard nightmare, that's only cause DE makes any new primes extremely hard to get, few months later, these primes become easy on the RNG tables.

And also, were is the progression on acquiring a prime? Did you do the regular weapon first? Did you have to own it to get the prime? No, there is no progression, cause you can jump those steps.

"B) a long grind and getting carried"

Getting carried, speaking like a true warrior, you did not progress enough to get those weapons, yet somehow you bend the rules, and got carried, progression would have said, you should have earned your prime, you did not, you were carried. Once again you jump the non existing progression path.

"C) friends who will give you stuff"

Progression? Nop. wow, that is a skill I have not unlocked yet, I must be very low on the progression tree, cause I never heard of such progression perks.

"D) platinum"

Progression? Nop. Just pay2win. As long as you pay you get the best gear, and jump the progression path.

 

 

Again, the vast arsenal of weapons exists for players choice, and to create their own unique sets of play style choices.

Edited October 26, 2015 by 7grims

[RealPandemonium]

IMO everything should be more of a sidegrade to everything else.  Warframe should be about flavors, niches, and aesthetics.  It should not be about "OP gear of the week," "efficient farming meta, or "infinite scaling."

[JackBeloved]

IMO everything should be more of a sidegrade to everything else.  Warframe should be about flavors, niches, and aesthetics.  It should not be about "OP gear of the week," "efficient farming meta, or "infinite scaling."

 

I agree with what I assume is behind your comment- that the primary goal of Warframe should be to be fun and appeal to as wide a player-base as possible ("flavors, niches, and aesthetics"). However, if that's the case, you'll also need to appeal to the min/maxers, farmers, and OP gear junkies. Again, this shouldn't be first priority, but in a F2P game that still needs to make money to function, there are certain mechanics that have to be there- player progression (which includes progression in weapon acquisition), farming, regular releases of new content (which usually include weapons, being far easier to create than quests or major updates to core game structures).

[RealPandemonium]

I agree with what I assume is behind your comment- that the primary goal of Warframe should be to be fun and appeal to as wide a player-base as possible ("flavors, niches, and aesthetics"). However, if that's the case, you'll also need to appeal to the min/maxers, farmers, and OP gear junkies. Again, this shouldn't be first priority, but in a F2P game that still needs to make money to function, there are certain mechanics that have to be there- player progression (which includes progression in weapon acquisition), farming, regular releases of new content (which usually include weapons, being far easier to create than quests or major updates to core game structures).

Progression in this game happens when you get mods.  Once the mods are obtained and maxed, you can take any frame/weapon to any content and do fine.  As the system stands now the super OP options are just there for epeen boosting and balance distortion.  

[JackBeloved]

You are in a "please balance weapons" tread, yet you say it is important for some to be better then others.

 

...

 

Yet, it is ok for weapons to be bad or inferior, as long as they aren't variants, or primes.

 

...

 

Why not start being honest and direct:

You want balance, as long as it is in the weapons you like.

As long as it is on primes and variants.

 

...

 

But if we are talking about real balance, the hind or grakatta (2 infamous weapons, cause they are bad), should be as worth and valuable as the boltor and soma, that is the balance we are talking about.

 

...

 

Again, the vast arsenal of weapons exists for players choice, and to create their own unique sets of play style choices.

 

1) "Balance" apparently means different things to different people, so let me clarify. When I say "weapon balance," I don't mean that every weapon is exactly the same. I also don't mean that every weapon is equally effective. I mean that there is wide variety in play style among all the weapons within the same tier, but that they all have more or less comparable effectiveness. Then, the same is true for the next tier, which is overall slightly better but slightly harder to get, and so on. There is no reason to require that the first weapon you get in game is as effective as the hardest weapon to get. In fact, that is the quickest way to frustrate and alienate your player base. If you want new players to be really happy for a few weeks, and then feel that their efforts and time invested are pointless, then your "every weapon must be equal" concept fits. But if you don't want a huge turn-over in players, and you don't want players to lose interest after a few months, you have to reward their time spent by giving them something better than they had before. And they have to work for it to get it. That's the whole point here- effort is rewarded in a fair and balanced way.

 

2) No one is saying it's OK for weapons to be bad. I am also not saying that it's OK for one starter weapon to be inferior to another starter weapon, or for one prime to be inferior to another. I AM saying that it's OK for a vanilla weapons to be somewhat inferior to its prime counterpart that takes a lot more time and effort to acquire. See above.

 

3) I don't believe that you have the capacity to know that anyone on this forum is being dishonest, and I also don't believe that you have understood me correctly if this is your response. But I do believe that you are coming at this discussion with some clearly preconceived feelings, and that they are causing you to make assumptions and jump to conclusions about what others are trying to say.

 

In all actuality, I don't like primes more than regular weapons. I don't care for the gold, or the overly-ornate look. I'm a fan of a few prime warframes over the originals, but most of the time I prefer the simpler, more minimalist look of the vanilla. I don't think that primes deserve to be better than the originals just because "they're primes, and I got them, and you don't, so I'm better!" No, my very rational, on-topic, and non-hostile argument is (and has been) that the extra amount of time and effort that is required to get variant weapons ought to be worthwhile in some way.

 

If you feel like the alternate look is worthwhile enough, then I'm glad. I believe, then, you should be crusading in some other thread to convert primes and variants into simple skins for the vanilla weapons, and not entirely new weapons. However, that's not part of the discussion here. The discussion here is this: things being as they are, where primes are entirely new weapons with upgraded stats and additional polarities, is there balance among the weapons within each tier, and is there balance among the effort/reward spectrum that's in place.

 

4) I'll challenge you on this one- the grakatta is not considered to be bad. It's considered to be the lower-tier version of the soma. new players can easily and quickly acquire a grakatta, and then use it if they like the crit-based play style. After a while, once they've got the mastery rank for it, they can upgrade to a soma, which is a more effective version of the same play style. And further still, after even longer they can finally build a soma prime. This is called progression. It takes more time and effort to get better weapons. Of course, once you're above the mastery rank requirement and you've got the keys and resources to build the prime, you likely won't use the starter any more. But is that bad? You've gone from early to mid to late game content and been able to get mastery rank for three whole weapons, instead of sticking to only one through the whole way. Unfortunately, some veteran players might look back at the grakatta and compare it to where they are now and say "it's bad." But actually, for the time that they used it, it was a decent weapon. Just because there is a next step doesn't make the first step "bad."

 

All that said, yes, the mastery rank requirements of some weapons need to be looked at, given their effectiveness. Also, the overall effectiveness of weapons like the hind needs to be looked at, given the limitations of the bust-fire mechanic and build costs, etc. These things needs to be re-balanced. But it's an oversimplification to say "the soma prime is better than the hind, so there's no balance." They are not equally easy to get, equally cheap to make, or equal in play style and mechanics. So it would be unbalanced to make them equal in effectiveness.

 

5) Here we agree, as I've already said. The issue seems to be this: Is this true within weapon tiers? Or should it be true globally? I am of the opinion that the nature of the game and the need for a sustainable business model would dictate that tiers are necessary.

[JackBeloved]

Progression in this game happens when you get mods.  Once the mods are obtained and maxed, you can take any frame/weapon to any content and do fine.  As the system stands now the super OP options are just there for epeen boosting and balance distortion.  

 

This is true to a point, but I think this is part of the problem that is being addressed. If progression is totally up to mods, then you're stuck with the "mandatory mods" problem. What it sounds like the dev's are aiming for from the devstreams is that mods WON'T be dictation progression, but instead be customizing and altering play style.

 

As it stands now, there's some progression in mods and some in new weapons and variants, as well as some play style customization in mods and some in new weapons and variants. It's kind of hit-or-miss across the board, and I'm advocating a systemic restructuring that fills in the gaps and levels out the peaks.

 

For example: Boltor Prime (progression weapon) with heavy caliber, serration, and split chamber (progression mods) vs. Ignis (playstyle weapon) with fast hands, ammo drum, and hush (playstyle mods). You cannot take the latter to any content and do fine. Should you be able to? That's the question here.

Edited October 26, 2015 by JackBeloved

[Tigercloud]

Well, yeah, if you read the part about having tiers of weapons... I would guess, then, that you are the kind of person who thinks that all weapons should be just as viable as any other weapon, meaning that there are no tiers and that the weapons a new player has access to will be on the exact same level as the weapons that veteran players have devoted lots of time and energy into acquiring?

 

See, in a game with progression, then there must be some level of, well, progression. If enemies get harder as you go farther, then your equipment must get better, too. This doesn't mean that there are "worthless" weapons- every weapon has worth for the level at which it's first accessible. Just because a weapon that's available to players in Mercury or Venus isn't as good as something that takes a while to get and craft doesn't mean it's worthless. It's very worthwhile while you're putting in the time to get and craft the upgrade.

 

But I think it's silly to look at a game like Warframe and expect that the Mk-1 Braton be just as good as a Braton Prime. Then why spend any time getting the Braton Prime? Your concept of "all weapons being equal" fits in other types of games with less crafting/rpg elements, maybe a good casual arena shooter where players just pick a pre-made character and run around fighting other pre-made characters all the time. Or a FPS like Halo where enemies are more or less the same throughout the whole game.

 

But that's not Warframe. Or any game with character leveling and progression.

 

But Warframe is one of the few games where weapon feel and aesthetics are important. I mean, let's face it, to a certain extent all Warframe is about is customizing how we look while killing Grineer, Corpus and Infested. I think that's what 7grims, and I, and some sizable percentage of the Warframe population want, is for weapons we are attached to to be valuable throughout the game, rather than have a tiered system that will eventually produce a pile of garbage for veteran players, and only a narrow top-tier of weapons that are viable for end-game content.

 

I'm certain there's a way to handle that. It's called the Focus system.

 

Mastery is basically a progression system that rewards you for using as many weapons as possible. If you made it so Focus rewarded you for using specific weapons extensively, then we could have the best of both worlds. Tiers *could* be made, but with the Focus system, I could use that MK-1 Braton in T4 Survival if I really wanted to, with enough time and effort.

 

This is what I want, so bad. It would basically give both sides what they want; progression for those who want to move from weapon to weapon, and allowing those who want to use weapons that would otherwise be outdated in a tier system to be competitive. The only people who would lose out are those who hate the thought of people using older weapons, and those who think those who gravitate to the top tier weapons are elitist snobs. But who cares about them ;)

[JackBeloved]

I'm certain there's a way to handle that. It's called the Focus system...

It would basically give both sides what they want; progression for those who want to move from weapon to weapon, and allowing those who want to use weapons that would otherwise be outdated in a tier system to be competitive.

You, sir, have won the internet.

This is brilliant. And intelligent. And sensible. And perfect. And brilliant.

[Enno69]

 

I'm certain there's a way to handle that. It's called the Focus system.

 

 It would basically give both sides what they want; progression for those who want to move from weapon to weapon, and allowing those who want to use weapons that would otherwise be outdated in a tier system to be competitive. The only people who would lose out are those who hate the thought of people using older weapons, and those who think those who gravitate to the top tier weapons are elitist snobs. But who cares about them ;)

This is certainly the best idea 've read so far on this subject. Well done. This would be great, as players could either craft outright better weapons as they move on, or keep using their old ones beyond level 30, which would slowly, but gradually boost their stats until they are T4 viable, at least, when modded... MK1 should be excluded from it but everything else could so just fine. Brilliant.

 

Also, "Progression in this game happens when you get mods.  Once the mods are obtained and maxed, you can take any frame/weapon to any content and do fine.  As the system stands now the super OP options are just there for epeen boosting and balance distortion. " No, that's certainly not true, or you haven't played any of the hard content. Right now mods will only get you so far. What you call "balance distortion" is just a way to handle the stuff that goes beyond level 30... Endless and raids.

[Tigercloud]

You, sir, have won the internet.

This is brilliant. And intelligent. And sensible. And perfect. And brilliant.

 

My question then is what has to be done to get this on DE's desk... and implemented.