New Quest: The Second Dream [U18 Megathread/spoilers]

[johar759]

two hours and cant get past stalker  what gives   what can I do or use   stuck with slow rhino n no energy  am getting way to frustrated with it

[BornWithTeeth]

Click to fire void BEAMZ, use them to shoot down the Stalker's hadouken.

 

 

I know. I know. It's @(*()$ ridiculous that they didn't tell you that was a possibility. I know. Yes, it was stupid as hell. Yes, it is frustrating. Yeah, it's probably the single most badly designed bit of the quest.

[TheBrightKing]

With my dissenting opinion well established and supported, I present the following:

 

 Based on all of the details, some directly stated and some the result of my best attempts to make conflicting story elements comport, I have currently arrived at the following conclusion:

 

1.) Tenno and Warframes are two distinct beings. The Tenno is the "void baby", but the Warframe is a separate Being as well. The relationship is no "pilot and drone", but rather, a symbiotic relationship.  

 

I know that others have posted this theory, but I will attempt to RATIONALIZE the theory with evidence.

 

- Alad V NEVER said the Warframes were "empty shells"-- as so many claim---  Alad V has said that he could not find the source of the Warframe's powers... meaning that he couldn't find the Tenno (the source of power).

 

- Lephantis sees the Warframe as one of its own, which means the Warframes must be made with infested material. 

- Mesa and Chroma are listed as Infested, meaning that a Warframe is a form of infested when it is default (without a Tenno).

- The bodies inside the pods are therefore assumed to be individuals infested with Technocyte who are scheduled to be fused with armor parts and turned into Warframes ? (This is very unclear, but is the only rational theory at present. It also explains how you can build a new warframe.) 

- The Warframe moved on its own during the cinematic, which is also echoed in Rhino Prime's CODEX (although, as stated, Rhino Prime's CODEX proves nothing definitively). This further evidences that Warframes are some measure independent from Tenno.

eeem not echoed in rhino prime codex, if you read it again you could notice that, when Davis shows rhino the content of the room, the childs from the zariman, he starts looking at his hands just like stalker did in the second dream when he discovered who the tenno are, so, the thing that was echoed was the reveal of the second dream, thing that proves that your "they changed the lore to see more profit" argument is invalid, or at least you dont have enough evidence.

 

warframes, i guess are not fully made of infested, they have metallic materials like ferrite, alloy plates and morphics, morphics are a strange material, probably orokin made, that i guess, was used in the creation of the sentients, so the conclusion is that warframes are not nly made of infested, but made of infested components, metallic, and even they could have sentient material (wich would explain the consciousness at the end of the story and the quote "who would chisel weapons from our bones" of hunhow, knowing there arent sentient weapons in the game but war, and war is not made by the tenno.)

 

Also due to th things you proved in this posts, the story is not weak, i think is deeper and LESS generic than the: we are in the suits, an we have exoarmors with powers... maybe you find it generic and weak because, as you have proven in the forums, you search for adult content, and you are dissappointed because you think this reveal is oriented to the youngest people (seriously, what kind of problem do you have with children or young adults, 90% of people who complains about this storyline complains more about the young guy that is the operator than the story itself), so you wanted to be in the warframe, and not to be a young adult in a pod, why? because you in your mind, want to have adult content: a veteran war hero inside a suit killing people is more "adult oriented" than a young guy in a pod remotelly controlling a armor, thats why you are complaining, if not, your idea of "more demographical oriented" would not exist, because with that you mean is oriented to a younger public. 

 

In conclusion, you should be more tollerant, an adult oriented history is not always better than a young oriented one.

Edited January 7, 2016 by mstriker

[enris85]

I'm calling it now...warframes are just just infected creatures cased in a suit controlled by tenno children...for now...U 19 we will see the warframe creatures begin to develop consciousness and able to control themselves.

 

I share in everything you have said and I think the same thing! Maybe not in U19...maybe in U20 or U21!!

[enris85]

I really appreciate Delta Pangaea's and Nujintuai's posts.

Yeah, It's better fight as a ninka warrior rather then a "child on a chair". 
Imho, the fact approaches Bran's situation in Ice and Fire. 

But there's the science-fiction style in this! 
Let's go guys, what is the theme? robot against human (or post human race). 

Sentients against Orokin. 

 

So, We use a lot of machine in our history time: we use car, we use pc, we use radio, etc etc etc. 

Really do you think Warframes without Operator are just a broken car, or a turned off pc? :D 

The last scene of  "the second dream" offering answers, makes questions. The Warframe broke the sword! 
This is the key. 

The Warframes know that, at the moment, they can live only with Operator, symbiotically.
The operator was going to die, muredered buy the Stalker. Warframe did the one thing he/she can do: broken the sword! 

 

Warframes have a basic instinct: they want to survive!

This is the break!

In the science fiction, when machines arrived at this point, start to being more then consciousness, start to be living! More: start to be indipendent! 

How about the next quests? Stalker again? Sentients? 

No, I'm talking about Warframes vs "Super Child on chair". 

I'm talking about Warframes that want to be Tenno! 

 

 

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

I really appreciate Delta Pangaea's and Nujintuai's posts.

Yeah, It's better fight as a ninka warrior rather then a "child on a chair". 

Imho, the fact approaches Bran's situation in Ice and Fire. 

But there's the science-fiction style in this! 

Let's go guys, what is the theme? robot against human (or post human race). 

Sentients against Orokin. 

 

So, We use a lot of machine in our history time: we use car, we use pc, we use radio, etc etc etc. 

Really do you think Warframes without Operator are just a broken car, or a turned off pc? :D 

The last scene of  "the second dream" offering answers, makes questions. The Warframe broke the sword! 

This is the key. 

The Warframes know that, at the moment, they can live only with Operator, symbiotically.

The operator was going to die, muredered buy the Stalker. Warframe did the one thing he/she can do: broken the sword! 

 

Warframes have a basic instinct: they want to survive!

This is the break!

In the science fiction, when machines arrived at this point, start to being more then consciousness, start to be living! More: start to be indipendent! 

How about the next quests? Stalker again? Sentients? 

No, I'm talking about Warframes vs "Super Child on chair". 

I'm talking about Warframes that want to be Tenno! 

 

 

[enris85]

 

 

I think though, one of the most compelling parts-- and crucial to what I believe to be a proper understanding of this dynamic-- is  a bit of audio which no one quoted this entire time-- and that was when the voice-over audio directly mentions the Warframes as being a Bio-Weapons project which had been rejected, but that they could possibly be used for the Transference project for the Void Babies.  This single line of audio is surprisingly important (and actually provides a ridiculous amount of structure to the lore) and is surprisingly easy to miss (Good thing I finally played through on the PS4 version, lol) .

 

Also, the Tenno pops up on the screen and talks to the Warframe-- and it is a  I-talk-to-You statement, not a "I-talk-to-myself" like so many have suggested.  The Tenno is not thinking out loud to themselves.  No, the Tenno is talking directly to the Warframe. This is further proof of the "horse and rider"  symbolism...  

 

Thus, rather than "pilot and drone" it is more "Tactician and Field Operative"  or "Horse and Rider".. 

 

 

Totally agree with you! 

Tenno are not mechanic but biological weapon and the "Child called Tenno" talk to us everytime. 

At the end, we are the Warframes in the game! 

Edited January 8, 2016 by enris85

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

Totally agree with you! 

Tenno are not mechanic but biological weapon and the "Child called Tenno" talk to us everytime. 

At the end, we are the Warframes in the game! 

Honestly, I find more immersive to be the Tenno; I know many think the opposite, but I just can't imagine to be the one controlled in a videogame.

 

When Ordis speaks with me he calls me the "Operator" and that's who I am in the game; sure, Warframes are probably not entirely lifeless as a result of the virus, but still, they're just suits to me!

[enris85]

"the one controlled"... not so long! :D 

[(XBOX)SylvEmily]

Tenno, the time has come to learn your secret. Journey and fight with the Lotus to discover what lies behind.

The Second Dream is now available to all players who have completed the Quest: Natah.

Please respect those who have yet to finish the Quest by keeping all discoveries and feedback to this thread. Thank you.

Holy Hell that ending though, the operator was on the moon the entire time...

Poor Ordis mistakes the Frame as the Operator...

Tenno, the time has come to learn your secret. Journey and fight with the Lotus to discover what lies behind.

The Second Dream is now available to all players who have completed the Quest: Natah.

Please respect those who have yet to finish the Quest by keeping all discoveries and feedback to this thread. Thank you.

Holy Hell that ending though, the operator was on the moon the entire time...

Poor Ordis mistakes the Frame as the Operator...

Tenno, the time has come to learn your secret. Journey and fight with the Lotus to discover what lies behind.

The Second Dream is now available to all players who have completed the Quest: Natah.

Please respect those who have yet to finish the Quest by keeping all discoveries and feedback to this thread. Thank you.

Holy Hell that ending though, the operator was on the moon the entire time...

Poor Ordis mistakes the Frame as the Operator...

[Elkyx]

if we were to kill our operator, would our transference lock us into the warframe state?

if so . . .

DE please let us kill the children as an option.

 

 

eeem not echoed in rhino prime codex, if you read it again you could notice that, when Davis shows rhino the content of the room, the childs from the zariman, he starts looking at his hands just like stalker did in the second dream when he discovered who the tenno are, so, the thing that was echoed was the reveal of the second dream, thing that proves that your "they changed the lore to see more profit" argument is invalid, or at least you dont have enough evidence.

 

warframes, i guess are not fully made of infested, they have metallic materials like ferrite, alloy plates and morphics, morphics are a strange material, probably orokin made, that i guess, was used in the creation of the sentients, so the conclusion is that warframes are not nly made of infested, but made of infested components, metallic, and even they could have sentient material (wich would explain the consciousness at the end of the story and the quote "who would chisel weapons from our bones" of hunhow, knowing there arent sentient weapons in the game but war, and war is not made by the tenno.)

 

Also due to th things you proved in this posts, the story is not weak, i think is deeper and LESS generic than the: we are in the suits, an we have exoarmors with powers... maybe you find it generic and weak because, as you have proven in the forums, you search for adult content, and you are dissappointed because you think this reveal is oriented to the youngest people (seriously, what kind of problem do you have with children or young adults, 90% of people who complains about this storyline complains more about the young guy that is the operator than the story itself), so you wanted to be in the warframe, and not to be a young adult in a pod, why? because you in your mind, want to have adult content: a veteran war hero inside a suit killing people is more "adult oriented" than a young guy in a pod remotelly controlling a armor, thats why you are complaining, if not, your idea of "more demographical oriented" would not exist, because with that you mean is oriented to a younger public. 

 

In conclusion, you should be more tollerant, an adult oriented history is not always better than a young oriented one.

I think it has something to do with a disconnect in who you are trying to be in game. up to this point we were allowed to let our minds wander and fret over who we were inside or outside the suit. but now we have to be a child, a barely (age wise) customizable child. i at least want the option to look in the upper bounds of minority, 17 would be fine. but even then it still isn't quite what some want.

some people like that self insert in an mmo, a character that, to the best of the games abilities is them. when the main demo of the game is 16-30 it might be strange to do that as a hardly pubescent teen.

and then their are people who dislike it because of the disconnect that you now develop with your warframe, we have still yet to see what it means for the warframe to die explicitly. there is nothing stating that an awakened tenno (like ours) couldnt just disconnect from the link and let the frame die, and continue with their day. but the frames are still alive, and it brings up another question, are we playing as the warframe or the tenno, and can they be separable entities?

anyway, just some thoughts

Edited January 19, 2016 by Elkyx

[BornWithTeeth]

if we were to kill our operator, would our transference lock us into the warframe state?

if so . . .

DE please let us kill the children as an option.

 

 

I'd be cool with players having the option to do that.....if it resulted in them being locked into one Warframe, permanently, with no access to the Focus system. You know. Like the Stalker.

[Elkyx]

I'd be cool with players having the option to do that.....if it resulted in them being locked into one Warframe, permanently, with no access to the Focus system. You know. Like the Stalker.

maybe some sort of slight buff or something, for not having access to focus? or some type of special "lens alternate" with different effects.

sadly i havent played the game in a while (linux) but i still keep up with the story and visit wiki to absorb info on what is one of my top 10 games.

imho options and tradeoffs are the base of character immersion.

[BornWithTeeth]

To be honest, I'm still quite creeped out by people posting about how they want to murder their Operator. It reeks of unhealthy attitudes.

 

 

 

Besides.......it wouldn't be the Warframe killing the Operator to supplant them and take their place. It would literally just be the Operator committing suicide because they couldn't handle the truth.

[Elkyx]

To be honest, I'm still quite creeped out by people posting about how they want to murder their Operator. It reeks of unhealthy attitudes.

 

 

 

Besides.......it wouldn't be the Warframe killing the Operator to supplant them and take their place. It would literally just be the Operator committing suicide because they couldn't handle the truth.

or. or.

listen here.

maybe, just maybe.

some people want to be the warframe they've been for the entire game and not a kid.

and maybe i want my character who found his tenno form weak and unhelpful, and wanted to fully transfer to the biomech that is his warframe.

or a character that couldn't handle the truth.

[BornWithTeeth]

You might not have seen the people posting actual, genuinely creepy as all hell murder fantasies during December. The kind of thing which, if a person said it in the flesh while standing next to you, would make you want to quietly just leave the room.

[Elkyx]

You might not have seen the people posting actual, genuinely creepy as all hell murder fantasies during December. The kind of thing which, if a person said it in the flesh while standing next to you, would make you want to quietly just leave the room.

meh, i have a strong stomach. but it is hard to talk about killing a kid in general without sounding evil.

but their is one problem about my idea. and that is it would require you to make lotus do something she wouldn't want to do, teach you how to safely kill yourself so you can live on as a frame. im sure she wouldnt want that for her kids. but i must ask. when som link is in effect, does the warframe feel the operator? like if i were to punch myself in the face while som linked to a frame, would i feel it at all. just wondering, because, that seems to be what stalker is, so i guess it doesnt kill you as long as you do it right or whatever.

[BornWithTeeth]

Oh. Yeah, it's pretty unambiguous on that score. The Operator feels the Warframe, feels it in every respect as though it were his or her own body. When the Warframe is injured, the Operator feels pain.

[Elkyx]

thank goodness we werent linked when we took a war to the chest

[BornWithTeeth]

That would have sucked. 

 

 

Then again, some folks are of the opinion that we were linked, and that the Operator managed to break War at a slight distance. I dunno about that one.

[Elkyx]

that little kid was in good condition for being stabbed through the chest via mind link.

im pretty sure the frames still have some type of ability to move without a tenno, just very difficult

probably like the kill bill scene 

"wiggle your big toe"

"then, break this sword"

"move, move, move"

anyway, even though i didnt entirely like the reveal, more options and lore reveals will eventually make it fun and acceptable even to those that miss the game before u18. hopefully.

[BornWithTeeth]

that little kid was in good condition for being stabbed through the chest via mind link.

im pretty sure the frames still have some type of ability to move without a tenno, just very difficult

probably like the kill bill scene 

"wiggle your big toe"

"then, break this sword"

"move, move, move"

anyway, even though i didnt entirely like the reveal, more options and lore reveals will eventually make it fun and acceptable even to those that miss the game before u18. hopefully.

 

 

Here's the thing. I'm pretty damned sure that the Warframes do have some kind of sentience in there. It's just that when you combine lore and gameplay, that results in some very problematic implications, such as the fact that we can build and discard Warframes at will.

[Elkyx]

i assume they are viewed as merely tools. sort of like how you get rid of a hammer or screw driver for a more useful one

I think the implications are intentional at this point, since lore and gameplay are starting to merge in a fare deal of aspects

[(XBOX)TheFancyJedi]

Ok, little things that I believe are true, through subtle or hard hints throughout the quest:

1 stalker is, was a Tenno.

Reason: at the end in the orbiter hunhow says that the stalker is disgusted by the tenno, by himself.

He became mad after he saw the pods in the moon. What I believe implies that he got his frame there and saw his actual self and couldn't handle it. Driving him mad. What happend after wasn't truly revealed but I strongly believe that the stalker isn't a mindless frame controlled by a tenno, yet a grown up tenno inside a suit where infested flesh should be(2).

2. Warframes are technocyte creations.

Reason: rhino P codex implies that the first rhino was a hulking mass of flesh. In the cutscene where stalker stabbed your warframe you see flesh and blood. I believe that the orokin used technocyte to create a dormant shell of flesh with a frame around it for the tenno to control. The technocyte was inert though so that it couldn't spread. That would also give reason why we choke without life support. The warframe still needs to breathe. And why warframes were kept in cryostasis.

If anyone could respond with different facts/supported insights to proof otherwise would be greatly appreciated, though I am truly convinced that this is right.

I don't think the stalker is a Tenno because the calls the Tenno high guards and said he was a low guard. He also sounded jealous of the Tenno.

Also, when the Tenno betrayed and attacked the Orokin leaders, the stalker tried to defend the Orokin leaders but was defeated.

I think the reason why he's upset when he sees the pods is that it reminds him of his jealousy and of the Tenno betraying his masters.

[(XBOX)TheFancyJedi]

Here's the thing. I'm pretty damned sure that the Warframes do have some kind of sentience in there. It's just that when you combine lore and gameplay, that results in some very problematic implications, such as the fact that we can build and discard Warframes at will.

The codecies imply that the warframes are basically psychotic feral beasts.

Although I think the players Tenno was able to achieve some level of transference and was able to control the warframe and pull out the sword.