Rhino Changes Feedback [U18 Megathread]

[Ronyn]

Well from all those examples you mentioned you need more energy and if you will try to keep it up like that for whole mission at early content you will most likely start running short on it while IS only needs a press of a button to last whole mission at early content and if it gets destroyed you will probably have another 50 energy by then to just recast it. And yes i know his drop location also helps at that.

As for all frames being equal, well thats much easier to say than its done as you have probably noticed already.

Those examples I mention are things I've done myself. Generally speaking I'm able to gain the energy required to keep those things going near indefinitely by killing enemies. Yes, unmodded. End point being that rhino is not unique in being extra strong early game. Singling him out is folly.

And even if he was unique in that way a large part of the solution would be to change/tweek what aspects iron skin scaled on So whatever changes altered his early game domminance didn't limit his end game potential. That in mind if someone's looking to nerf iron skins base potential they had better offer solutions to its fully nodded potential to offset any long term loss of viability. If we want A frame to be right the frames maxed out potential is just as important as a frames base power.

As for equal balance being easier said than done....of course. That's always the case. I often talk about the difference between Intent and excecution. I brought up DE's design intent to make it clear what the goals here are. Some games are built with the idea that certain classes/characters are supposed to be better than others. In warframe the only way a frame should be better than another is if it's about primes verses the standard version.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Ronyn

[lookindown]

Still no buffs for rhino...

[NogginMasher]

Well whats making IS in particular not scale with enemy level, if thats what we are trying to achive here, is its base health. No matter how much armor you give rhino, how much armor multy has IS, how much base IS hp has and no matter if you bake ironclad in base ability, the IS wont scale with enemy level. The more effective base health it has the longer in early to mid content it will be godmode and the later it will start losing its viability but it wont scale with enemy level, because what you do with that is just move the viability bar for a few levels higher. If you want it to scale off enemies level then you need to put in an mechanic that convert the strengh of enemies into strengh of IS. Absorbtion state does exacly that, but problem is, with current stats, its not enough on its own and IS still has to rely on base health which will be less and less effective with higher enemy level. So buffing absorbtion stats will make it scale better, while increasing other stats will only make it fail a bit later. Also what helps in every case is recastability, because sooner or later, if it scales or not, you will have to recast it, and unless you find a spot where you can fall off the map, you will have to play this little game with your enemies which i like to call "damage me but not too much" and i think you know what it is about, which becomes tougher and tougher with higher enemy level untill you simply cant win at it anymore. While we do have an agument that alows us to recast IS i think we both know we would all want it as a part of base ability from obvious reasons. Now what can be a problem with all this is alowing you to survive anything at any level just by occasionally pressing a button and not thinking much, which arguably some frames do alow you that, but i dont think DE would want to do that to IS and i would agree in that case. A great way to solve that and many other problems would be cooldown but thats something this game does not have at abilities for some reason. So maybe something thats quite similar like not perfect recasting, meaning you dont instantly recast but go trough temporary phase of being more vulnerable than in IS but can also be less vulnerable than completly without IS which can be done by longer cast time, adding damage reduction or ignore chance during it or something similar. You could also try with something similar as defy and its increasing cost but apparently at defy it can be gone around if used correcly. But at the end its alwas up to DE.

You really don't like paragraphs, do you?

Buffing the absorption is a great idea, and what I was trying to convey with my previous lengthy post. Recasting could work, but adding a mechanic where number of stacks has some detriment on the ability (such as decreasing efficiency, movement penalty or diminishing returns) should be implemented

Edited January 12, 2016 by NogginMasher

[Ronyn]

Cult for space

To be clear: the right base stats along with the right multiplyer can be effective at making a power scale fairly well.

Not infinitely of course but we shouldn't be pushing for infinite. Just the relevant level ranges that the game is meant To take place in.

As an example look at chromas vex armor.

By taking a solid base armor value and multiplying it several times it ensures that it's not so uber strong unmodded that early levels are irelevant but becomes rather beastly fully modded so it does well end game.

Now imagine if chromas base armor was too low or if the multiplier was too low....

It could easy mess up the scaling (not to mention make chroma too squishy to take any hits between casts). This is why we need to pay attention to those things.

Iron skin is different than vex armor but the same logic of how to scale something (base stats & multiplier working together) should be PART of the solution.

Which is why I say that raising rhinos armor is a PART of how we fix him.

That in mind I am also a fan of better absorption mechanics and recastability.

I believe that the right solution will be multifaceted.

[Mr.Deadlus]

I had played Rhino since i actually started playing the game , and just now i got Rhino P . 

 

This buff did help , but Rhino as a frame doesnt make sense. 

 

As some people already mentioned , just looking at Rhino makes u think oh this guy can tank damage . Then you look at his armor value , and go take a look at other frames which dont have the armored look to them and surprise , have double to triple his armor value. 

 

But that is just visuals ... what is more bothersome is the actual gameplay part . 

 

He is far from the tank the game makes u think he is .. Useful tanking would be Frost for example , with his globe  , where one can absorb damage for the greater good of the team . Rhino just pops his Iron Skin , which is useless in higher levels , and that provides no gains to the team . 

 

Iron skin could use tweaking , since it is an ability with potential to provide high level tanking , to draw fire from teammates. (if anyone here plays Dota 2 , similar to Axe . Cast ability,  enemies focus you but you gain alot bonus armor , in warframes case could be shield and armor , or something else ) . BUT if you make it so it can resist high levels than it would be too much for the low levels . So i thought of a system that would detect the amount of damage that you are taking while in iron skin . For example , low level enemy hits you for a 100 damage . System detects this and applies an armor bonus of 10% to Iron Skin . So a small bonus for small damage . Now , if u go high levels and you get hit by an enemy for 1500 damage , you get a 150% bonus armor to Iron Skin . So more damage you take , the tankier you get . This could work as a part of Iron Skin , or even as a passive , not connected to any ability .

 

Roar is OK , but then again there are other frames which have more useful team buffs ( Ember , Equinox , Valkyr .. ) So it could use some work as well ... Maybe provide some kind of damage reduction .. 

 

Rhino charge is more of a quick dash , not a charge . Its useful for dashing thru enemies to revive a teammate , or to break up enemy groups ( infested ) , but besides that , its nothing special . Could use a armor / shield buff during the charge , but make it so that actually resembles a charge. ( something along the lines of a 2 second delay , then he starts sprinting , accelerating during the charge till u run out of energy , hit a wall or some obstacle , or u recast the ability ) 

 

Rhino Stomp is a useful CC ability , and i really dont know what could use tweaking here . I mean its not catered for high levels , but the ability to stop enemies in their tracks does ease killing them . Maybe higher damage , or some other bonuses for allies inside the ability range ?

 

Anyways , this is just a quick thought of this , please feel free to correct me if im wrong . Id like to see Rhino get fixed as much as the next guy ;)

[Nagisawa]

If 700 is too much, how about 600?  It's just 30 more than tripling his current armour value.

[Qynchou]

Bumping thread with the request of making roar and iron skin recastable without augments. Please DE.

[BlazePaladin]

DE please increase Rhino's armor to 450+ or closer to Valkyr's armor. You want him to be the tank guy but 275 armor on Prime is not enough lol while some frames are tankier than him. So far I'm ok with his skills

 

EDIT: Recastable Iron Skin without an augment will be a nice addition too

Edited January 14, 2016 by BlazePaladin

[Ronyn]

 So the question is which path should IS take? Base or scale? And from what you said i asume you would like a little bit of both, so like it is now but only better. 

Like I said, multifaceted. Not necessarily in all the same ways it is now, but relying on more than one mechanic.

I don't think the multifaceted approach is particularly harder or creates more complications than using any single mechanic that would accurately function for each level of the game.  Because often there are other variables such as energy pool or duration that factor in to the situation and make one style of scaling not work well for early game but work great at late game. That is where multifaceted approaches often show their worth.

 

Look if one aspect of a power is more instrumental to it's success early on where another aspect of a power is more instrumental to its success later on that is more than fine. As long as it doesn't hurt builds which it doesn't inherently have to. It is possible to have multiple mechanics work off of a proper synergy. 

 

A simple example of that just for illustration: Let's say, in addition to armor rating buffing iron skins HP total, lets say armor rating also defines what percentage of health iron skin gains from taking enemy hits. So a low armor rating means you only gain 50 percent of health from shots taken where a high armor rating means you gain 200 percent of health from shots taken. So mid game the useful boost you gain is from the armor stat itself while later on the useful part of the boost is from how the armor stat amplifies how much stronger iron skin gets from being hit. Same build, works well low and late game, because the mechanics interact with each other properly. Remember I'm just illustrating a principal of synergy between two mechanics...I'm not making a suggestion on how something should work or trying to use real numbers there. 

 

Alternatively, if you're trying to create some sort of power that functions wonderfully with very different types of builds...

Well some powers can be built for more range, more damage, or longer lasting...because they have multiple things to work with they can be modded in multiple ways. But that can be tricky with something like iron skin because it currently lacks other aspects to bolster beyond simply it's durability. Unless we are going to let duration change it's absorption window...or add some other aspect to it. Heck I'd be open to that kind of thinking too if it makes sense.

 

Of course, again, whatever we do with iron skin doesn't affect how sturdy rhino is when iron skin is not on or how well we works with the common rage mod tank meta. Which are good reasons to raise his by themselves! It's funny. Back when armor didn't effect iron skin people said "why raise his armor since he will have iron skin on" and then since armor does effect iron skin it's "he doesn't need more armor just make it scale some other way". Its like..why are folks against keeping rhino's armor on the lower end?

 

 And yes, screw paragraphs because its you whos maybe having harder time reading or coordinating, not me >:)

There lies some Irony...I didn't mention anything about paragraphs. That was someone else.

[Ronyn]

Oh so we should have base too just to make it easier for early content? Scale can work just as well at early content. Lower energy pool affects all abilities

-

I just dont think scale also needs base so it can work properly at early to mid content.

Remember that we aren't just talking about how rhino does when iron skin is active.We also have to consider how he does when it is not active. Making the base stats high enough for early content is pretty standard game design. An ability that scales can work great but only when that ability is actually active. As you said energy is a concern for everyone early on, that's why I believe that tanks should be built sturdy enough where early on they can remain in their intended role for a while even without an ability active. Iron skins scalibility, no matter what form it takes, does nothing for rhino when it isn't on. And that is an issue at every stage of the game.

Even if iron skin doesn't take armor into account into its scaling there are still reasons to raise it. And if we have reasons to raise it I'd say it makes sense to tie it into iron skins scaling.

Also worth noting that players don't get to late game until they have made it through early to mid game.

So despite the fact that we all spend more time in late game the road that got us there is just as important.

Have seperated mechanics, one instrumental for early content and one for later content. Yeah i dont see the point in that.

I said it was fine..... IF some mechanics were MORE instrumental at certain stages. Both mechanics would always be important, but there might be a curve in their importance...just as there is a curve in enemy damage output to damage they can take.

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And what you did with your "illustration" is just make these two mechanics having builds that go together, you just mention an example how modding problem can be avoided as i said. But you still have a mechanic that scales and one that does not and i already explained whats bothering me with that. And once you reach late content, in which you will spend most time playing i asume, the base is just there to be irrelevant then. I rather take away that base to make scale a little bit better in return.

That's an inaccurate way to look at what my illustration demonstrates for the issue overall.

When a stats base value is instrumental in altering the percentage gained from reactive scaling that base value remains inherently relevant even into infinite content. In other words: Transforming 200 percent of enemy damage taken into iron skin health is ALWAYS better than gaining 50 percent of enemy damage taken into iron skin health whether at level 1, 100 or 1000. That's the math at play there. So a person would always have a good reason to mod to raise that base stat. By definition if there is a reason then it is relevant.

Well I've said my piece and explained it in more detail. I see no point in repeating it indefinitely.

You don't agree then it is what it is. At some point a debate becomes circular and that is a waste of time right?

Yes i know that but most likely that someone else is reading our conversation and that was ment for him. :)

So no paragraph's no multi-quoting for specific people, and no simply stating who you are talking to by putting their name before the sentence....

okedokey.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Ronyn

[dodyouserious]

any words from DE? for rhino buff?

[NogginMasher]

any words from DE? for rhino buff?

Haven't seen squat. Sometimes, I feel we are just talking to ourselves here, and DE is lagging behind on community feedback.

[Ronyn]

Wait what? I think you missunderstood what i ment by "base". With that i ment you give IS certain amount of hp on cast which is determened by mods.  <cut for space>

It's not that I misunderstood you, it's that I am talking about the whole picture and how it ties together regardless of anyone else's desire to just talk about a single part of it. Why? Because if we only focus on how iron skin scales while active without considering how it all works together and how an iron skin build might affect rhino when it's not active....we are going to come to a short sighted and likely flawed solution. 

 

Here let me ask you this-

When you say "give IS certain amount of hp on cast which is determened by mods. " exactly what mods are you referring to? 

[Nulak]

I still think gives more armor to Rhino is just the lazy way to buff the actual frame instead of fix IS. I don't mind tweak my Frame with forma and /or good set of maxed mods (build) but its really sad to see IS just pop out after10 hits with 270+ power str in T4 void or sortie ... So yeah IF need a buff in some sort. 

 

To make it fair, why not do something like this:

 

- first IronSkin stack : basic buff (the one we have right now)

- Second stack: basic buff + 10 % on total armor but 5% less health (or something else like a big energy recast cost) idk)

- Third stack : another +10% (so 20% total armor but 10% less health (or something else)

 

ultimate stack : 30% total armor - you don't have shield anymore 5% less dmg 

 

That way the frame is not OP at earlier level for newbie. (without a solid energy pool its risky to use it)

 

Its just an idea.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Nulak

[Ronyn]

I still think gives more armor to Rhino is just the lazy way to buff the actual frame instead of fix IS. 

We need to both buff the actual frame and fix iron skin.

[Nulak]

Also since DE can't fix the host bug for now, Ironskin is often Rank 0 when you start the mission, make IronSkin even more useless.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Nulak

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Also since DE can't fix the host bug for now, Ironskin is often Rank 0 when you start the mission, make IronSkin even more useless.

This needs to be fixed asap, i dont even use rhino on sorties cuz of it

[Qynchou]

I still think gives more armor to Rhino is just the lazy way to buff the actual frame instead of fix IS. I don't mind tweak my Frame with forma and /or good set of maxed mods (build) but its really sad to see IS just pop out after10 hits with 270+ power str in T4 void or sortie ... So yeah IF need a buff in some sort. 

 

To make it fair, why not do something like this:

 

- first IronSkin stack : basic buff (the one we have right now)

- Second stack: basic buff + 10 % on total armor but 5% less health (or something else like a big energy recast cost) idk)

- Third stack : another +10% (so 20% total armor but 10% less health (or something else)

 

ultimate stack : 30% total armor - you don't have shield anymore 5% less dmg 

 

That way the frame is not OP at earlier level for newbie. (without a solid energy pool its risky to use it)

 

Its just an idea.

What about changing iron shrapnel augment to allow rhino to stack iron skin with x% efficiency and reduction to movespeed.

 

Change default IS to be recastable, then make augment have 10% movespeed reduction and 40% efficiency per cast (scales with power strength).

[Nulak]

What about changing iron shrapnel augment to allow rhino to stack iron skin with x% efficiency and reduction to movespeed.

 

Change default IS to be recastable, then make augment have 10% movespeed reduction and 40% efficiency per cast (scales with power strength).

 

Movement speed reduction make everything else (and i mean your skills) useless, you need mobility to buff your team, need it to CC where you teammate are  and if you can't move fast you get more hit, so i think its not a good solution. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Nulak

[(PSN)Daikon177]

What about changing iron shrapnel augment to allow rhino to stack iron skin with x% efficiency and reduction to movespeed.

 

Change default IS to be recastable, then make augment have 10% movespeed reduction and 40% efficiency per cast (scales with power strength).

If this were a normal mmo where theres and actual tank roll thats slow draws agro and cant do much damage and is just for taking a ton of damage then id agree but this game is way to fast pace for that

[Qynchou]

So stacking it 10 times would make you unable to move untill enemies destroy IS?

If youd need to stack IS 10 times I think you have to rethink your build.

 

Casting it once now is completely fine, allowing it to stack instantly at least doubles/triples IS effectiveness. Thats not even a 700 base armor change, thats like a 1200-1500 base armor for rhino is what youre saying.

 

What I proposed was a downside to stacking with eyeballed numbers. You cannot possibly expect the devs to buff rhino to godmode without any downsides.

[Nagisawa]

Aw, they unstickied this.  Meaning they consider this topic done.  No one is going to actually fix Rhino.

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Aw, they unstickied this.  Meaning they consider this topic done.  No one is going to actually fix Rhino.

Oh well at least hes better than he was. Maybe someday he'll get on valks level, guy can hope anyway.

[dodyouserious]

I just lost my hope my rhino

[(PSN)Daikon177]

Honestly if they gave him more armor and made IS recastable i think he'd be fine for now and then they could move on to the other frames that really need some love like oberon