Rank 30 Ash - my changelist

[t3st]

I love that teleport is 25 now. It fits his melee theme much better.

Compared to my other rank 30 frames, however, his skills are the least reliable.

Bladestorm

This skill often cancels out early, pulling back your FOV and leaving you unable to melee for the rest of the map.

Bladestorm is currently a total crapshoot, especially when soloing at high levels. The AI doesn't have any targetting time, so you'll see ancients landing impossible behind the back tentacle smashes while you teleport around. If there are Toxics out of your LOS, you can die when the autotargeting Bladestorm leaves you in poison clouds. Use it on Pluto, and half the time you'll have the entire cargo bay focusing shots on you, while you have absolutely no player control for the duration.

Fix:

-Ash is invincible during Bladestorm.

Shuriken

This skill is never used. It simply does too little and costs too much. Moreover, it isn't interesting and doesn't suit Ash's theme. At rank 30, I'd never use it even if it were free. Why would I lock myself in an animation, while having to adjust for travel time and an angled throw for paltry DPS, when I could simply shoot with any of my guns?

Some ideas of a rework:

-Change Shuriken into Harpoon. Ash throws a single-target harpoon that drags an enemy towards him into melee range. Unlike Mag's pull, this does damage, and travel time / throwing angle must be accounted for (like shuriken).

-Ash bomb. Ash throws a bomb that explodes and chokes victims, providing a short AOE stun. The ash cloud lingers, which breaks LOS, allowing players to move from cover to cover.

-Urn. Ash throws an urn which fragments on a single target, launching it into the air and suspending it for several seconds. Provides an extended melee opportunity, like Rhino's stomp, except single-target with longer airtime.

Altered movesets and unique frame properties

Ash is an evasive melee frame, so he handles a bit differently. His ninja flip/high jump takes off and lands faster, with the flip animation completing sooner. This gives him less airtime for aerial gunplay, but allows him to get over obstacles quickly, and lets him better jump over the heads of enemies in a melee battle.

Edited January 21, 2013 by t3st

[MJ12]

I don't know. Shuriken right now is okay, with 100/250/500 on-target damage that pierces enemies and ignores armor.

I think what it needs is to be easier to aim, rather than being replaced. Have it curve in towards the closest enemy to the reticle, for example. Maybe allow it to curve its flightpath slowly after that to hit multiple targets?

Edited January 21, 2013 by MJ12

[t3st]

500 damage is nothing when you have end-game guns and mods. A shuriken for 25 energy can't even oneshot a Blue MOA on Pluto. I can take out a room of them in the same time with my primary.

[MJ12]

500 damage is nothing when you have end-game guns and mods. A shuriken for 25 energy can't even oneshot a Blue MOA on Pluto. I can take out a room of them in the same time with my primary.

That's due to shields and Moa being health piles without armor.

Perhaps endgame mobs should have increased armor/damage resistance instead of just more health? Or perhaps powers should scale to enemy level to some extent? Because, as I understand, a similar problem exists with Slash Dash, as in without power +% mods it won't kill anything on Pluto, as well as Rhino Charge and other direct damage powers.

[t3st]

Or Shuriken's just worthless Charge and Slash Dash at least have plenty of utility for getting around, invincibility for escapes, and hit in a wide path.

The same problem with Shuriken existed at rank one, as it does at 30. It doesn't scale with the guns and mods you have access to. It's never worth using. If it took out a noticeable chunk of a boss' life on a headshot, maybe people would consider using it at 25 cost.

They gave Ash three interesting skills, and sort of tacked on this boring filler, which has absolutely no synergy with the character. I mean, I can already shoot - why would I want to throw pieces of origami? If it was a projectile that pulled enemies in close so you could hit them, at least that'd be fun to use.

[Takko]

Ash needs a skill similar to Excalibur's skill 1, he just doesnt have any good skills. Even his 4th skill is kinda useless (you even get poisoned if you attack a poison mob, you should be invulnerable while the skill is active, just like excalibur's 1st).

[Katakuna]

-Change Shuriken into Harpoon. Ash throws a single-target harpoon that drags an enemy towards him into melee range. Unlike Mag's pull, this does damage, and travel time / throwing angle must be accounted for (like shuriken).

GET OVER HERE!

But seriously, practically speaking, shuriken doesn't have a lot of usefulness as it is now. You can earn style points by pinning weak grunts to walls and ceilings, but other than that, it doesn't serve much purpose. Yeah, it ignores armor and all that, but that shining aspect in weighed down by, well, everything else about the shuriken.

[Psyclosarin]

The only thing I can think of that would suit this char is already taken up by Excalibur.

Though in saying that maybe a blink strike that teleports in and does an insanely fast 360 sweep around him. But even that is pretty similar to the other skills.

[V1RTU5]

heres some ideas i have with his abilitys cause atm they do sound prity usless and i realy dont see it as a "stealth" guy when loki can just run around invisible.

shuriken:lower its cost to 15 and make them silent this alows you to keep that stealth aspect and not feal like u waisted 25 energy.

Smoke screen: instead of a bomb have it come out of him so he stays invisi and give it a toxic efect simular to the anchants (make this 75)

teleport: make it where ever ur curser is pointing at you teleport to that location up to X distance (make this 25 energy)

blade storm: if this ability isnt silent then making it so is my only change

[MJ12]

GET OVER HERE!

But seriously, practically speaking, shuriken doesn't have a lot of usefulness as it is now. You can earn style points by pinning weak grunts to walls and ceilings, but other than that, it doesn't serve much purpose. Yeah, it ignores armor and all that, but that shining aspect in weighed down by, well, everything else about the shuriken.

I think I suggested in the last thread about Ash that Shuriken should either home in on targets or throw out multiple shuriken. Preferably both. It's a really cool skill that I like the concept of (ninja star someone to a wall!) but is kind of below par right now.

Somehow they need to make damage skills scale better for high-level content in general. Like t3st mentions, Slash Dash/Charge are mostly useful in Pluto for invincibility frames.

[Ronyn]

We could also give shuriken the ability pin enemies to walls for a short time whether they are dead or not.

Basically makes the skill a damaging stun.

[MJ12]

We could also give shuriken the ability pin enemies to walls for a short time whether they are dead or not.

Basically makes the skill a damaging stun.

Also cool. Although I think narrow-effect skills like shuriken or fireball should either be given AoEs (fireball should definitely get one) or tracking ability in addition to buffs like that so you can't miss with them.

I mean, isn't the point of powers to be different from just 'shoot guy in face'? So Ember gets a incendiary rocket launcher she can pull out of her parachute pants at any time, and Ash gets a precision guided missile made of knives. So much cooler than tiny fire puffs and regular ol' shuriken.

Edited January 21, 2013 by MJ12

[Ronyn]

Also cool. Although I think narrow-effect skills like shuriken or fireball should either be given AoEs (fireball should definitely get one) or tracking ability in addition to buffs like that so you can't miss with them.

I mean, isn't the point of powers to be different from just 'shoot guy in face'? So Ember gets a incendiary rocket launcher she can pull out of her parachute pants at any time, and Ash gets a precision guided missile made of knives. So much cooler than tiny fire puffs and regular ol' shuriken.

I very much agreee with this thought process

[GenocideWolf]

Notice how kunai are used in Shinobi, Ash's shuriken could be used in a similar fashion. A ranged stun that's quick, cheap, and let's you get in melee range without getting shot at. In Shinobi, the kunai can also be thrown as an AoE stun at the cost of 8(IIRC) shuriken while jumping. Maybe add a skill that supercharges his melee damage for a time and add an energy return for each enemy killed during the duration or something.

If playing Ash was similar to this I would have no complaints at all.

[Ronyn]

Ah yes I remeber shinobi. Lots of fun!

[MJ12]

Notice how kunai are used in Shinobi, Ash's shuriken could be used in a similar fashion. A ranged stun that's quick, cheap, and let's you get in melee range without getting shot at. In Shinobi, the kunai can also be thrown as an AoE stun at the cost of 8(IIRC) shuriken while jumping. Maybe add a skill that supercharges his melee damage for a time and add an energy return for each enemy killed during the duration or something.

If playing Ash was similar to this I would have no complaints at all.

Teleport should stun enemies near the exit point (at least for long enough to get a charge melee off). Upgrades to it should boost stun length and give bonus melee damage (+50% for first, +100% for second).

[Katakuna]

If playing Ash was similar to this I would have no complaints at all.

All the nostalgia.

[MupO6pe4eH]

Just get him yesterday. After day playing him, i agree that shuriken is useless. It costs too much, it's travels slow, and animation is killing me. Ok... 100/250/500 dmg if it hit's, casting time is simillar to 4-5 clear shots with my Hek that also stun enemies and pass through them and some walls... Didn't get smoke bomb yet... but is if it realy bomb, and not a smoke that coming from Ash's left arm so i'm dissapointing... and yes teleport should stun target for 1-2 seconds, for me now it's like: Teleport - get hit and recover from stager - charege kill <- not fun!

-Shuriken suggestions... long range AoE projectile. For taking out multiple enemies... sounds like a grenade...

If Ash is melee stealth fighter than it must be something else.

-Swap and change teleport and shuriken abilities. Firts one brings you to target stun it and deal some AoE dmg (slashing around isn't that bad), second... i love hook idea just let this pull target towards you and at least knocks it down.

-Smoke bomb. I even didn't see the animation yet. But it must be like Ash is summoning smoke from his left arm(why is steam around it anyway?) cover himself invisible, and distract enemies.

I want to see him as melee based frame, with abilites to get faster to close range and distract opponents with his smoke, with fast one target capture skill to stop enemies from triggering on alarm and little croud control.

I don't get bladestorm yet so can't say anything about it.

Sorry for my bad english.

Edited January 21, 2013 by MupO6pe4eH

[Ronyn]

Teleport should stun enemies near the exit point (at least for long enough to get a charge melee off). Upgrades to it should boost stun length and give bonus melee damage (+50% for first, +100% for second).

YES!

[PancakePie]

I just got Ash today.

I think he's pretty awesome, actually.

DEFINATELY needs some tweaking, but otherwise is a really solid stealth warframe.

Shuriken

Definately needs to be totally silent.

I've gotten a couple stealthy kills with it, but other times it has alerted enemies.

I think something most people don't realize is that you can headshot with the shuriken. It does double damage in most cases when you do.

Also, if you change the shoulder your camera looks over it becomes WAY easier to aim. (Camera is H by default I believe) You can also turn around to make the throw start closer to your crossair with the normal camera.

It could really use a projectile speed increase. (This would make it far easier to headshot with, making it instantly more useful)

Other than those points, I feel like it's actually pretty decent.

Teleport

Is it possible to just make it so it doesn't interupt your current animation?

This would allow you to teleport mid melee weapon charge and unleash it as you land.

Also do stuff like teleporting to an enemy mid roll or something so you could get to another location and roll out of the way at the same time.

Really simple fix that would make it a much more useful ability.

Smoke bomb

Fine as is.

It's pretty much a "get out of jail free" card for most situations.

AoE stun AND invisibility? Awesome.

I've noticed it lets me be more adventurous with how I play in dangerous situations, because I can just panic and fall back on it if something goes wrong.

Combined with teleport it gives you a few more tactical options than many other warframes have, although at the cost of being really expensive energy wise.

I can teleport into a group of enemies, smokebomb them, then go nuts with my melee weapon for a few seconds and come out pretty much unharmed.

Blade storm

Unfortunately I have yet to unlock this, so no feedback on that yet.

This warframe became MUCH more enjoyable after getting an energy regen artifact.

(3 abilities that cost 25-35 energy per use + energy regen make the abilities really spammable)

Edited January 21, 2013 by PancakePie

[MupO6pe4eH]

Maby shuriken upgrades should give more projectiles, for discent shotgun move to get rid of group of enemies in front of you. 2 and than 3 fast projectiles that pircies through. But they must be thrown on an instant with one move. Aiming is hard, no meter what, especially when you trying go pluto with lvl 9 frame :p, when you stop you'll die, maby add some aim assist, it's often just comes over target(i need more practice), or make it homing, or bouncing between enemies.

[Demographics]

I'm also a level 30 Ash, and I pretty much agree with all of this.

I would offer a different fix for Shuriken though, which would really redeem it as a skill. My favorite use for it is for killing or weakening Ancients and other large enemies once any shields they might have are stripped away, but it's a terribly unreliable skill. This is what needs to happen:

1. The Shuriken's hitbox needs to be much larger, especially wider. The hitbox should probably be at least as wide as 4-5 feet, or roughly two foes standing side-by-side.

2. It needs higher base damage. I don't think any "damage upgrades" in this game scale very well with how hard enemies end up becoming, and skills like Shuriken suffer too. Each upgrade should increase total damage significantly more than they do.

3. Trying to aim the thing is AWFUL. It should *immediately* be thrown exactly where your targeting reticule was the instant you use it, like a bullet from a gun, and not be at all influenced by how you are moving yourself or your camera. More reliable aiming would half-redeem the skill alone.

Without all three of these fixes, the shuriken's not a great skill. The best that can be said of it is that, once you have enough energy, it saves a lot of rifle ammo when whittling down the health of Ancients and Grineer heavies.

[Ronyn]

I also wouldnt mind iof shuriken disabled the sheilds of any enemy hit by it.

This would give it extra use in solo and in team fights

[Volume]

Shuriken should be like 5-10 energy and have little to no windup time (think of it like a fluid motion you can do it while running, sliding, crouching, jumping, etc, but not while sprinting or rolling.

Also maybe it could have one press to ready it, and then another press to throw it (say you want to hold it in your hand and zoom/r-click/ADS)

[Tetsmeha]

Smoke bomb should stay as is, but make it instantaneous, or have a cast speed as fast as his teleport. And yeah blade storm definately needs to make you invincible. It's super funny to see Ash laying on the floor while enemies infront of him get instagibbed.

Also, shuriken ha some aiming issues. When you aim at an enemy when they're up in your face, the shuriken is thrown to target them, rather than at the reticle, causing it to miss completely.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Tetsmeha