Datamined Mission Rewards Are Bad. If True, Please Change Them.

[[DE]Steve]

I have a question.

 

Why not have certain rare mods drop from ? Alerts too?

Yep, we're working on this and components from alerts. It still doesn't avoid the RNG complaint, however.

[[DE]Steve]

Because then they couldn't charge 100 dollars for thunderbolt in a mod pack with some plat.

 

"Some" Plat? If you recall before, you got NO mod for purchasing it? But I see what you did there. We r bad, must say bad things.

[ADDpillz]

+1 for more cosmetic items. 

 

I dont want to pay to play the game's content.

I want to pay to ALTER the content I am playing.

 

I would straight up pay $60 to have a map editor where I could build my own defense missions.

 

I would straight up pay  $60 to DESIGN my own skins for weapons.

 

+Crowdsourcing+

[[DE]Steve]

Reposting this.

 

(In reference to: just make it all cosmetic, done, success, company stability)

 

Yes, we hear this a lot. I'm not against adding more cosmetic items. Unless you're TF2 scale though, it doesn't work. I dunno, seems weird to point at Valve game that was 12 years in the making, had a full retail release, went free-to-play, as "oh yeah, do what they did, will totally work". [edit] I have talked to the smaller guys and they did not recommend this as being the basis of your business plan.

[winterau]

The issue is, people have pointed out time and time again that they'd be more inclined to buy plat if the prices for both plat and stuff in the shop weren't absolutely bat-S#&$ $&*&*#(%&. But DE refuses to listen and only wants to ride the coat tails of people willing to buy the grand master package. This is why their income is tanking, because instead of going after everyone, they're going after a few big spenders then trying to force everyone else to become a big spender.

 

I don't believe that this is why their income is tanking.

 

At some point, DE is going to reach the maximum number of players willing to provide a large initial spend (e.g. founders). Once those players have made that initial spend, they are unlikely to continue making large spends in the future so naturally over time the income will go down.

 

However DE have the same development team that they have had all along so their costs are not going down they are remaining static. 

 

Naturally you don't want to see your friends out of a job, so the inclination is to wring what you can out of your customers. The problem is that that only works in the short term. In the long term, if players get the feeling like they are being screwed (which is certainly the feeling that is developing in the player base) they will leave and everyone loses their job.

 

The issue for DE then is how do they balance income vs costs and not have the player base revolt against their tactics. So far they are failing because their tactics are pretty evil (basically gambling industry tactics).

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

"Some" Plat? If you recall before, you got NO mod for purchasing it? But I see what you did there. We r bad, must say bad things.

It just feels really off, given how rare the mods in particular are in-game. Then people see the mod pack and wonder if the drop rates aren't intentionally skewed. Especially given that one of the mods in particular is a weapon exclusive one, that only one weapon in the entire game can utilize. And another is a passive that shouldn't be a mod to begin with.

[[DE]Steve]

+1 for more cosmetic items. 

 

I dont want to pay to play the game's content.

I want to pay to ALTER the content I am playing.

 

I would straight up pay $60 to have a map editor where I could build my own defense missions.

 

I would straight up pay  $60 to DESIGN my own skins for weapons.

 

+Crowdsourcing+

 

Yep, though it depends on the person, right? We actually intend to give away a mission editor. As for altering the content... the content needs to be made as a basis of alteration first, etc... there is only so far color tints and rearrangement will take you (something we learned when we had only 1 tileset).

[[DE]Steve]

It just feels really off, given how rare the mods in particular are in-game. Then people see the mod pack and wonder if the drop rates aren't intentionally skewed. Especially given that one of the mods in particular is a weapon exclusive one, that only one weapon in the entire game can utilize. And another is a passive that shouldn't be a mod to begin with.

 

Intentionally skewed how? Like how they are in magic the gathering?

-Two bows can use it as well as future ones.

-Passives are all over the Mod system. There is no 'passive' system other than Mods that do things... passively.

[Urizjel]

by mission editor you mean steam workshop support ?

[[DE]Steve]

I don't believe that this is why their income is tanking.

 

At some point, DE is going to reach the maximum number of players willing to provide a large initial spend (e.g. founders). Once those players have made that initial spend, they are unlikely to continue making large spends in the future so naturally over time the income will go down.

 

However DE have the same development team that they have had all along so their costs are not going down they are remaining static. 

 

Naturally you don't want to see your friends out of a job, so the inclination is to wring what you can out of your customers. The problem is that that only works in the short term. In the long term, if players get the feeling like they are being screwed (which is certainly the feeling that is developing in the player base) they will leave and everyone loses their job.

 

The issue for DE then is how do they balance income vs costs and not have the player base revolt against their tactics. So far they are failing because their tactics are pretty evil (basically gambling industry tactics).

 

Well, incoming isn't tanking, not sure where you're getting that from. "Gambling industry tactics" sound really great and casts things in an evil light but I'm not sure its anything except: we have loot, some of it is rare, if you want to buy it you can.

 

Additionally, after I recover from the rebuke of our ethics, I will kindly remind you, that we're apt to change and listen to feedback and we've done this time and time again.

[MrTetsuo]

Above is the critical point (bolding is mine) that everyone seems to be missing.

 

DE don't have a way to extract money out of the player base except through manipulative, gambling industry techniques.

 

Update 8 appears to have shown their direction forward which is to provide a pay wall that gives a minuscule chance at getting the new content. This is not forcing you to pay once or twice, it is forcing you to pay hundreds of times in order to get anything. I can't see any universe in which I would be willing to pay on average $50-$100 for Latron Prime, yet that is roughly how much it would have cost when Update 8 went live.

There are ways to lure players into spending their hard earned platinum, one of which is the Tower keys/items approach. This approach works best for "whales" (ie, the top 2-5% of the player base responsible for most of the real cash spending into the a game) that are prone to doing whatever it takes for the shiny exclusive items (Frost/Latron Prime and Scythe).

Speaking from my personal experience: I spent zero platinum on tower keys and won't spend a single one, ever. However I did buy all the color packs (equivalent to 20 bucks to make my space barbie prettier), have 8 (mostly super-charged) Warframes and 25+ (mostly super charged) weapons (starting the play with Forma now, which i find a awesome platinum sink). The reason is simple: all this platinum has been spent on permanent improvements to my account (therefore my gameplay experience), even if they are purely cosmetic. The reason why I refuse to spent money on keys is that it boils down to gambling: you buy 5 chances to roll a dice for some specific items parts, until you manage to get all of them. In this sense I would happily buy DLC content that would allow me full access to a new area of the game (again, this would be a permanent improvement to my account therefore good "investment").

While I don't think there is anything nefarious about exploiting whales I do hope that this isn't the only way to keep the cash coming for DE. I do enjoy this game a lot and hope for it to be alive for many years to come.

[Sideway]

Steam workshop support

 

I love the sound of this so much.

[[DE]Steve]

by mission editor you mean steam workshop support ?

No, imagine Dojo building +++ More controlled and 'live' to the database.

[ADDpillz]

No, imagine Dojo building +++ More controlled and 'live' to the database.

Steve your making me hungry.

 

You cant just post things like this..Now this is all I'm going to think about.

[[DE]Steve]

There are ways to lure players into spending their hard earned platinum, one of which is the Tower keys/items approach. This approach works best for "whales" (ie, the top 2-5% of the player base responsible for most of the real cash spending into the a game) that are prone to doing whatever it takes for the shiny exclusive items (Frost/Latron Prime and Scythe).

Speaking from my personal experience: I spent zero platinum on tower keys and won't spend a single one, ever. However I did buy all the color packs (equivalent to 20 bucks to make my space barbie prettier), have 8 (mostly super-charged) Warframes and 25+ (mostly super charged) weapons (starting the play with Forma now, which i find a awesome platinum sink). The reason is simple: all this platinum has been spent on permanent improvements to my account (therefore my gameplay experience), even if they are purely cosmetic. The reason why I refuse to spent money on keys is that it boils down to gambling: you buy 5 chances to roll a dice for some specific items parts, until you manage to get all of them. In this sense I would happily buy DLC content that would allow me full access to a new area of the game (again, this would be a permanent improvement to my account therefore good "investment").

While I don't think there is anything nefarious about exploiting whales I do hope that this isn't the only way to keep the cash coming for DE. I do enjoy this game a lot and hope for it to be alive for many years to come.

 

I think your experience is a common one and I appreciate you sharing. I want to also add that if you *do* obtain or purchase a pack of keys, you can share it with your friends as I've seen in ROTmG and similar ticket systems.

[Urizjel]

No, imagine Dojo building +++ More controlled and 'live' to the database.

nice

[Skeloton]

(basically gambling industry tactics).

 

I swear someone sometime is going to make a complaint to some gambling regulator somewhere in the world against DE. Not that I think much would come from such action, just that it might happen.

 

Now don't look at me, my previous excitement of playing warframe has slowly turned to complete and utter apathy. Probably on my 80th run of Everest now and still no Trinity systems. I use to think when he dropped nothing 'damn nothing' then to 'argh nothing again' to 'sigh *hit abort and retry*, I also skip all the enemies prior to Hek something I didn't do much of before.

 

 

No, imagine Dojo building +++ More controlled and 'live' to the database.

When I first thought about custom missions this is how I imagined it lol.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Skeloton

[Excitonex]

Intentionally skewed how? Like how they are in magic the gathering?

-Two bows can use it as well as future ones.

-Passives are all over the Mod system. There is no 'passive' system other than Mods that do things... passively.

While it's true that you only get 1 rare per pack in MTG perhaps the problem with mod packs is people aren't getting enough commons to feel satisfied?

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Intentionally skewed how? Like how they are in magic the gathering?

-Two bows can use it as well as future ones.

-Passives are all over the Mod system. There is no 'passive' system other than Mods that do things... passively.

No, more that your thunderbolt and handspring drop rates are intentionally low so people will be more inclined to shell out for your thunderbolt, handspring and retribution packs.

 

As for passive mods: Yes but "getting up faster" is ridiculous to have as a mod.

[Nerokerubina]

I think your experience is a common one and I appreciate you sharing. I want to also add that if you *do* obtain or purchase a pack of keys, you can share it with your friends as I've seen in ROTmG and similar ticket systems.

 

Besides this wonderful game, what other Korean MMO do you enjoy and play?

[Excitonex]

No, more that your thunderbolt and handspring drop rates are intentionally low so people will be more inclined to shell out for your thunderbolt, handspring and retribution packs.

 

As for passive mods: Yes but "getting up faster" is ridiculous to have as a mod.

These mods are supposed to be rare and you know what you do with rares? Lower the drop rate.

[SymphNo9]

Craftable tokens?

 

Low level bosses (like Vor) & missions = 75% common token, 20% uncommon token, 5% rare token, as reward.

 

Mid level bosses & missions = 45% common token, 45% uncommon token, 10% rare token.

 

High level bosses & missions = 25% common token, 55% uncommon token, 20% rare token.

 

Percentages can be adjusted.

But then gather X tokens to craft a "basic pack", yielding one random mod of the specific token group.

Gather X2 tokens to craft a "lucky pack", allow you to choose a set of mods you would like among the pool, and yielding one mod from that set.

Gather X3 tokens to craft a "re-roll lucky pack", it is the same as X2, but allow you to reroll the result if the mod is not desirable.

[Daxien]

These mods are supposed to be rare and you know what you do with rares? Lower the drop rate.

Sir I have played this game for nigh on 300 hours, 200 of those hours have been since Thunderbolts release, I have not encountered Retribution, Handspring, nor Thunderbolt in 200 hours. this is no longer rare, this is stupid

[Excitonex]

Sir I have played this game for nigh on 300 hours, 200 of those hours have been since Thunderbolts release, I have not encountered Retribution, Handspring, nor Thunderbolt in 200 hours. this is no longer rare, this is stupid

Some people will be unlucky. I personally am only missing retribution, which my clanmate has found 3 of. 

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

These mods are supposed to be rare and you know what you do with rares? Lower the drop rate.

When drop rates for specific rares are so rare people can play for hundreds of hours and never even know it exists, it gets suspect.