Fire Rate On Semi-Autos Is Still Meaningless [Even In U10]

[Volt_Cruelerz]

The burston was a horrible example for this experiment, I'll quote myself from another thread:

 

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Burston's displayed fire rate is indeed mistaken.

I have taken data of my own and found out the following:

 

Recording with fraps at 60 fps, emptying the clip with perfect timing (macro assisted):

 

It takes ~6.8 seconds to completely empty the burston. That's 45 shots / 6.8 seconds = actual fire rate ~6.6

 

With a max fire rate mod:

It takes ~5.3 seconds to to completely empty the burston. That's 45 shots / 5.3 seconds = actual fire rate ~8.5

this isn't even a 60% fire rate increase like the mod claims to be, likely because of burst firing.

 

Out of curiosity, the braton is indeed roughly 11.3 shots per second, meaning burston falls extremely short in damage.

20*11.3 = 226 compared to 21*6.6 = 138.6

This means that burston would need to do about 34 damage per shot to be close to the braton. (62% damage increase or a 72% increase in fire rate.)

 

Additional data:

Burst delay is about 0.35 seconds, 0.25 seconds with max fire rate mod.

A burst takes 0.1 seconds to fire with and without max fire rate mod.

 

All these values were taken using sony vegas.

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It's not only about fps but about semi-autos in general.

In fact I have recently tried out akbolto and it doesn't even reach the advertized fire rate, however it does reach about 10 shots per second with max gunslinger.

Have you considered that the rate may actually be as listed but instead the rate you got was merely the rate on your computer?  I get what looks like 60 FPS as well but apparently the game needs more than that to fire semi-autos at full speed.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Azure_Kytia]

This is a problem that has been brought up before. Unfortunately, it is not so much an issue solely with Semi-Automatic Weaponry, but it's the way the entire game's physics and controls are detected and calculated. Warframe's system depends on the results of the previous frame to extrapolate and run their physics, key presses, and inputs. Because of this, the game suffers greatly from lapses in framerate, especially when you're getting below 25fps. The game simply cannot accurately detect "when" the player pressed the LMB, nor the last time the gun was fired, because it's assuming that the game must be running at 30fps or greater, in order for things to calculate smoothly.

 

It is pretty common practice in today's game development environment to base all physic and input detection off of a function that polls based on literal time, instead of the previous frame. Unfortunately, that doesn't yet seem to be the case with Warframe, and the longer it goes on like this, the less likely (and harder) it will be to correct.

 

To list a few blatant examples of symptoms of this issue: When lagging below 15 fps, you will never be able to easily run up stairs. This is because the game cannot accurately determine that there is a steady slope there, and instead determines that  there is an impassable wall when your velocity is fast enough and the framerate is low enough.

 

Input issues can also be noticed when trying to wallrun, if you hold space at a wall and try to climb it, you may notice your Frame may take a moment to grapple onto the wall and start running, as the game can't determine whether the spacebar is being held correctly.

 

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, firerate drops exponentially when below 25fps. Again, this is caused by the fact that the game only receives a "is button still held down" answer after each frame, instead of at each point in literal time.

 

I'd personally prefer DE to take a look back at their code and try and change detection to these elements to Time rather than last frame, but I understand that they're busy expanding the game. They don't have the time to radically change their physics and polling system. Especially what with E3 just a little way away.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Azure_Kyte

[LazyKnight]

Again could be wrong was a few years ago I really spent the time to understand this. In order for weapons to shoot at the listed speed it would need to have the games frame rate go to 120-200 for enough frames for the change in input to be register in the same frame the game received the click.

This is painfully obvious in off-line games that do not have capped frame rate.

Edited June 5, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Azure_Kytia]

Again could be wrong was a few years ago I really spent the time to understand this. In order for weapons to shoot at the listed speed it would need to have the games frame rate go to 120-200 for enough frames for the change in input to be register in the time the game received the click.

 

In the current system, the game needs a steady, constant framerate to maintain consistent firerate and physics calculations. So yes, you are correct, because this game uses Framerate to determine time, not a function that works off of time itself.

[SanguineXIII]

[sarcasm]

Well, clearly we were intended to use nothing but Despair as a secondary weapon, since it's fully automatic and deals more damage than any semi automatic secondary in the game.

 

There, problem solved![/sarcasm]

[fatpig84]

And I thought I was the only one with this problem.

Toning shadows from high to low significantly speeds up semi auto shooting.

Edited June 5, 2013 by fatpig84

[Argoms]

I wonder if I ever actually made a thread about this, or just considered making one then ended up forgetting about it.

 

Either way, this really needs looking at. I'm in favor of letting all "semi-automatic" guns fire fully auto with mouse held down, at least temporarily. The only difference (in a world where this issue didn't exist) would be feel, and anyone who wanted to keep the feel of a semi automatic could just do so instead of holding their mouse down. 

[LazyKnight]

The issue could be fixed on an Xbox or Playstion because they can programed for a fixed hardware and can maintain consistent within gameplay sessions. Most of PC games use a different method for latency compensating methods in client. Value games are very good example of this.

 

I hope they can fix this without making all weapons full auto fire, but It wouldn't be the end of the world if they did

Edited June 6, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Argoms]

The issue could be fixed on an Xbox or Playstion because they can lock the frame rate(by various means) for all users and maintain consistent within gameplay sessions

*sigh*

 

This is not how framerates work. You can cap your framerates to a certain number (generally 30 on consoles afaik), but you cannot make some kind of sacrifice to the system so that even when performance dips, your framerate is still that number.

[LazyKnight]

*sigh*

 

This is not how framerates work. You can cap your framerates to a certain number (generally 30 on consoles afaik), but you cannot make some kind of sacrifice to the system so that even when performance dips, your framerate is still that number.

I am referring to how the xbox has optimization coding for its, video card, cpu, and memory this minimizes it not removes it. Sarcasm is not needed or required unless you can come up with a reason on how you can  fix an issue when no two people even have the same PC setup or internet setup.

Edited June 6, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Argoms]

I am referring to how this game has variable performance issues and learn how an xbox works.

 

I am referring to the fact that you don't know how framerates work. At all, apparently. 

Edited June 6, 2013 by Argoms

[Iraetus]

Yes, apparently FPS affects semi-auto fire rate.

 

I slapped in +60% RoF mod for my Latron Prime and it fires like wow. Mean while my clan mate has the same gun and same +60% mod but with lower FPS but I fire faster.

[LazyKnight]

I am referring to the fact that you don't know how framerates work. At all, apparently. 

I understand whats wrong https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking how would you fix this

Edited June 6, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Argoms]

I understand whats wrong https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking how would you fix this

Fix what? You've shown me some information about how multiplayer is handled in the source engine.

 

You don't seem to understand what's wrong. The framerate complaints aren't just from the people who barely meet system requirements. They're also from people who can run AAA games on maxed quality settings without issue, yet their framerate drops in warframe. 

Edited June 6, 2013 by Argoms

[LazyKnight]

-_- I need coffee.....

 

If you can't look at the link I am not responding to you read it I am not retyping it. More links at the bottom of the page really I couldn't have given you a better link if you want to discover why other games work on your elite pc. Warframe doesn't function like most Triple AAA game it uses a different method than what value uses. They need to do something like what value does https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Latency_Compensating_Methods_in_Client/Server_In-game_Protocol_Design_and_Optimization

Edited June 6, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Fleischkloppa]

Your Latron is a slow weapon, if you tried that on Aklatos or Akboltos, then you would get less than satisfactory results.

 

Actually, I tried that.The fire rate increase also feels satisfactory on my akboltos.

 

When I click really fast with them they fire almost faster than the boltor :D

[Zyfe3rX]

And you do know that

 

"Using 3rd party software to gain additional advantage over other players is bannable offense" ?

 

(Your macro)

[Volt_Cruelerz]

And you do know that

 

"Using 3rd party software to gain additional advantage over other players is bannable offense" ?

 

(Your macro)

Except I don't use it in general practice (all these tests were done in empty rooms in solo mode on exterminate missions) and I really doubt they'd go after people with macros anyways.  What I did was test an issue with these programs and report the results.  What that rule is is a general "don't cheat" clause.  I'd hardly consider testing the capabilities of the game and then reporting them so that the developers can look into it cheating.

[LazyKnight]

Kind of sad if it was cheating for just firing a gun at listed speed.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Kind of sad if it was cheating for just firing a gun at listed speed.

Below listed speed actually :P

[UncommonUnicorn]

On your computer :P

 

There is a ton of variability from one computer to the next in performance of these weapons which should not be the case.

 

I'm talking lagless, high fps performance in a solo game.

The difference between lex with and without gunslinger is still pretty huge.

 

I agree that +RoF mods on weapons with more than 3-4 RoF is pretty useless though, unless they're automatic.

Last time i checked, Gunslinger is 72% speed. Take that with 1.1, you got around 1.9 fire rate.

Mine's only at +48% atm. So 1.6 is valid (1.628 technically).

Although I'll probably max it when I get around to it.

Your Latron is a slow weapon, if you tried that on Aklatos or Akboltos, then you would get less than satisfactory results.

Latron fires fast enough without mods, imo.

Because of this, the game suffers greatly from lapses in framerate, especially when you're getting below 25fps.

Afaik, pretty much any game suffers below 25fps.

This is painfully obvious in off-line games that do not have capped frame rate.

I've played a game without a framerate limiter once...

Got game over within 10 seconds.

You start with 3 lives.

Frogger. >_> (Original DOS version)

Either way, this really needs looking at. I'm in favor of letting all "semi-automatic" guns fire fully auto with mouse held down, at least temporarily. The only difference (in a world where this issue didn't exist) would be feel, and anyone who wanted to keep the feel of a semi automatic could just do so instead of holding their mouse down.

I disagree.

Or at least, I'd still be tapping the mousebutton instead.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I'm talking lagless, high fps performance in a solo game.

The difference between lex with and without gunslinger is still pretty huge.

 

As were my tests.  They were all done in the starting room of the Mercury exterminate mission (Tolstoj is it?) with the exception of one where it was performed in the room where the last enemy died.  I don't know how to find out what exactly my frame rate was, but it certainly didn't feel below 60 at the time of testing.

[LazyKnight]

If they used a method of client side prediction of weapon firing it would fix the problem. This is why Value games are so smooth.

Edited June 6, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Enlil]

so many words, and you are wrong. if there would be no fs on semi auto pistols / guns chimps like me would macro them to faster fire speeds than automatic guns.. making you complain, oh, so OP 

[Fire_Ashes]

Eh...

This is an issue but not for me leave it to the dev's to do their work...