Channeling, The Problems And The Solutions

[matrixEXO]

Well, it's high time for me to mention a much-'neglected' part of the melee system, the Channeling System. Currently, the Channeling System is a system that consumes 5 base energy per enemy hit to deal 50% additional damage. One can mod their weapon to add more effects like increased damage or reduced energy cost. So, what's the problem? The Channeling System is actually a load of problems in one.

 

First and most importantly is that there is no variation between base channeling effects with other weapons. They all act the same way. While increased 50% damage may be great on a high damage, low attack weapon it actually doesn't really help on a weapon with low damage, high attack. Instead, the energy cost which are also the same, makes it so that fast-hitting weapons lose out on benefits more than heavy-hitting weapons. Besides that, there are no other additional or different base modifiers that exists for all the currently existing weapons. This makes the base Channeling System a copy-paste on all weapons. I would expect that there to be a melee weapon made such that it's terrible unless it's being channeled but currently there isn't. Another, in my eyes, miss opportunity to expand the melee pool properly so not every one weapon seems to be just stat differentials from another.

 

Next is the mods. They consume the same slots as a regular non-channeling mod. What's the problem then? Because they do so, you would expect these mods to actually provide more incentive to actually use channeling but, apart from specific mods, they actually do not help at all in that regard and only take away from the reasons to mod those in. These mods are Quickening (+20% attack speed, -80% Channeling Efficiency), True Punishment (+40% Crit Chance, -60% Channeling Efficiency), Enduring Strike (+60% Status Chance, -40% Channeling Efficiency), Parry and, to a lesser degree, Corrupt Charge (+100% Channeling Damage, -40% Channeling Efficiency). Why are they bad? Quickening is basically a bad Fury, losing 10% attack speed for 80% worse energy efficiency and the same cost. True Punishment is in the same boat as well. Enduring Strike usually isn't used because there are more non-channel based status chance increasing mods to actually do a better job than it while Parry can actually be executed without the mod if it's timed well (basically just a mod that grants flexibility in exchange for a very precious mod slot). Corrupt Charge is arguably the only mod that seems decent but there's the base Killing Blow mod which actually works about the same (+0.1x more than Corrupt Charge) and does not have the negative effect. Basically, half the entire mod pool for the Channeling System is actually badly designed.

 

What about the other half? Of those, the two mods I find notable in propelling Channeling System forward are Life Strike (grants % damage dealt into HP heal) and Focused Defense (increased armor, can be used to move around without melee attacking to benefit from the % Armor increase).These two adds unique components not found in other weapons or non-channeling mods. Why are they actually really good? Life Strike basically grants the player potentially infinite health when they do their mods right while Focused Defense is an optional (though terrible when attacking in Channeling mode) mod for increased defense when moving around. And both of these actually have -140% Channeling Efficiency on them. Which actually is quite harsh as they add 7 additional energy per strike, totaling the base energy cost to 12 energy per strike (though sort of balanced out due to the way they provide unique effects).

 

Now, why would you mod specifically for channeling over normal all-round use? The answer is you can't and you don't. The mods all mostly provide such negative effects that a precious mod slot wasted for such mods are not really desired and one can get better or exactly the same effects by modding it for normal use versus specifically for channeling. The Channeling System itself doesn't provide more of an incentive other than when either of the said two mods above are equipped. One which is a staple for self-sustaining combat style that also includes Rage while the other is more optional for a run-and-gun form of combat that grants the player additional armor while moving and not using their weapons (and especially when not using channeling when melee-ing).

 

 

 

So, what could be done to make it better? Well, first and foremost is to have weapons each have some variance in base channeling effects. Maybe have daggers gain +Armor Penetration when channeling or a Scythe which gains +Range when channeling. Add effects that actually do shake things up and give players a reason to use Channeling more. Heck, why not have a weapon that is basically a Skana copy-paste when not channeled but gets super-buffed when in Channeling. This not only adds more options to weapon variety but also allows for more variations in terms of mod selection.

 

Another change is to actually remove or reduce most of the negative Channeling Efficiency effects off of the mentioned terrible mods or strengthen their effects. They would benefit more from not having them on in the first place and if they need to have them on for balance reasons, give them stronger than non-channeling mods of the similar effect. Let each mod that affect channeling be strong so each channeling mod equipped on a precious mod slot of 8 actually have some proper significance to both the Channeling System and the viability of using Channeling.

 

An additional benefit is to have more unique game-changing mods that actually shake the combat up. Why not have Rhythmic Slashes (+Damage when alternating attacks from channeling to normal, stacks up to X times and lasts X seconds) or Gun Hater (% chance to disarm enemy when attacking targets while Channeling) to spice Channeling System up. Heck, these mods would make the Channeling System more interesting.

 

Last thing, which is highly optional and would seem like a stop-gap measure than a proper directed change, is to actually implement mod slot/s that is/are dedicated to channeling mods. That would free some slots up for basic modding while having additional slots to allow players to make better use of Channeling when needed for the additional effects.

Edited February 6, 2016 by matrixEXO

[(PSN)DBR87]

People have been saying this for a long time. I have personally created a thread saying much of what you are saying and have responded to threads created saying all of this.

 

Channeling was supposed to replace charge attacks but it seems like they just put it in there haphazardly just so we can look cool holding a button.

 

Also base channeling drain is 7 energy per strike, not 5. It's 5 energy per strike with Focus Energy mod on.

 

But yeah... It's absurd how every weapon has the exact same channeling stats when there is so many possibilities to make weaker weapons stronger with channeling. Right now Broken War is on top of the long sword meta. But what if Heat Sword had the channeling ability to change it's damage bonus from the channeling's 1.5 multiplier into Heat damage, or turn all it's damage into pure Heat damage with a 100% proc? What if Dark Sword, when channeled, turned all it's damage into Radiation damage with a guaranteed proc? What if Fragor had a channeling cost of 1 energy per strike and a channeling multiplies of 2.5? Would it not compete with Jat Kittag?

 

I also completely agree with the channeling mods. If you are channeling energy in your weapon that means you not NOT using Energy for Quick Thinking or using your powers. So why is it that the channeling efficiency penalties are so harsh? Especially considering that channeling cost is on a per hit basses. If you have negative channeling efficiency to the point it is at 15, that means you lose 15 energy per enemy hit off one swing. What if you are using Atterax or Mios with Primed Reach? What if you just did a channeled spin attack into a group of 10 targets? You just lost 150 energy from one spin attack!

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't have a penalty but they shouldn't be in the order or -80% efficiency. Like -10% at the most. Honestly think that because you are using energy for melee instead of powers is enough of a penalty.

 

Either way, channeling needs buff and it's mods need a buff. A lot of people have been saying thing for a long time.

[matrixEXO]

People have been saying this for a long time. I have personally created a thread saying much of what you are saying and have responded to threads created saying all of this.

 

Channeling was supposed to replace charge attacks but it seems like they just put it in there haphazardly just so we can look cool holding a button.

 

Also base channeling drain is 7 energy per strike, not 5. It's 5 energy per strike with Focus Energy mod on.

 

But yeah... It's absurd how every weapon has the exact same channeling stats when there is so many possibilities to make weaker weapons stronger with channeling. Right now Broken War is on top of the long sword meta. But what if Heat Sword had the channeling ability to change it's damage bonus from the channeling's 1.5 multiplier into Heat damage, or turn all it's damage into pure Heat damage with a 100% proc? What if Dark Sword, when channeled, turned all it's damage into Radiation damage with a guaranteed proc? What if Fragor had a channeling cost of 1 energy per strike and a channeling multiplies of 2.5? Would it not compete with Jat Kittag?

 

I also completely agree with the channeling mods. If you are channeling energy in your weapon that means you not NOT using Energy for Quick Thinking or using your powers. So why is it that the channeling efficiency penalties are so harsh? Especially considering that channeling cost is on a per hit basses. If you have negative channeling efficiency to the point it is at 15, that means you lose 15 energy per enemy hit off one swing. What if you are using Atterax or Mios with Primed Reach? What if you just did a channeled spin attack into a group of 10 targets? You just lost 150 energy from one spin attack!

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't have a penalty but they shouldn't be in the order or -80% efficiency. Like -10% at the most. Honestly think that because you are using energy for melee instead of powers is enough of a penalty.

 

Either way, channeling needs buff and it's mods need a buff. A lot of people have been saying thing for a long time.

 

Getting this out of the way first, I confirmed it and it's definitely 5 energy per hit and not 7. Used Ninkondi to check on PC. I agree that the penalties are extremely harsh. On top of that, we don't have efficient energy regeneration outside of specific Warframes to efficiently multi-hit without going max positive Channeling Efficiency and no to minimal negative Channeling Efficiency.

 

As for weapons to gain bonus effects, I think we all can agree that it's what we actually want out of it. Well, on top of that, there are some things that I would like to see which are more cosmetic like Silva and Aegis not having those fiery effects unless you activate channeling or Jat Kittag has it's jet engine always active while on channeling.

 

Personally, I feel that they should just go away. Exception of really powerful mods aside (Life Strike) and additional QoL mod (Corrupt Charge), these mods should never actually have negative Channeling Efficiency. They are stat-ed weaker than their original counterparts to begin with. In fact, they actually also deserve a boost in stats, about twice as much as they currently have to compete for the mod slot placement as it can create diversity that way.

 

Glad to know that people are actually understanding the problems and potentials of the Channeling System and are also trying to get DE to be more aware of it.

[tnccs215]

Well said, all of you.

I suppose an additional channeling mod slot, a la exilus, would be convenient. Though I suppose every one would throw life strike on it.

Channeling needs a rework. Melee itself requires tweaking-- and its a shame, since I love Warframe's melee, that it is substantially worse than gunplay-- but I don't know if that means that melee is underpowered, or that both guns and enemy scaling are overpowered. But I digress. Channeling can offer tons of possibilities: A complete change if behavior would be great. Most weapons still have the "does X on charge attack" description (heritage from melee 1.0). Why not make it on channeling? And there could be created a weapon that completely changes itself upon channeling... Though I suppose that a bit too bloodborn-y.

[Oriviagene]

Imo the actual problem is the energy cost because the energy is far more useful to be used as warframe power which producing far more better result than channeling,my suggestion just make the energy cost is per second instead of per hit

[matrixEXO]

Well said, all of you.
I suppose an additional channeling mod slot, a la exilus, would be convenient. Though I suppose every one would throw life strike on it.
Channeling needs a rework. Melee itself requires tweaking-- and its a shame, since I love Warframe's melee, that it is substantially worse than gunplay-- but I don't know if that means that melee is underpowered, or that both guns and enemy scaling are overpowered. But I digress. Channeling can offer tons of possibilities: A complete change if behavior would be great. Most weapons still have the "does X on charge attack" description (heritage from melee 1.0). Why not make it on channeling? And there could be created a weapon that completely changes itself upon channeling... Though I suppose that a bit too bloodborn-y.

 

Exactly the problem right now. Channeling attacks aren't actually being used for more than just 'hit X enemy for life regen' in higher tier battles. I use it in lower tier battles because I know I can't die even without any energy so going for the additional damage is fine when leveling a fresh weapon.

 

Personally speaking, melee is in a middle where it's not overpowered yet also not underpowered. And to me, that's fine. But that's taking into account the fact that you get damage modifiers from invisibility effects and that some melee weapons can go supersonic speed with Berserker slapped on it. Without those, well... you either get slapped hard or you barely manage to get through the area unless you have other forms of crowd control (Excalibur's RB, Mirage's Prism, etc). Though since there are plenty of crowd-controlling warframes, that's less of an issue.

 

I personally like it if the weapon can change form when channeling. Except that we got a problem in the name of stance mods. Which has been my number one issue with melee since their introduction because stance mods actually do limit the design space of the melee weapons. We get the Mios which is a whip blade but we can't individually choose how to use each of them because they can't be designed separately due to inherent stance mod issues. They are forced to be used with stance mods. I hope I'm wrong on this and that DE can do it even without stance mods being equipped.

 

 

 

Imo the actual problem is the energy cost because the energy is far more useful to be used as warframe power which producing far more better result than channeling,my suggestion just make the energy cost is per second instead of per hit

 

Agreed. Energy cost is way more of the problem. But 5 energy per hit has always been decent until you slap on mods that actually just drain energy for no real reason. Energy per second feels a bit... wrong. If we were to follow the current formula, that would be -12 energy per second with just Life Strike active. In some cases it's good but in almost all other cases it's bad. Mainly, moving around with channeling still active (Focused Defense mod equipped) would get majorly affected. As for what it's good for, it's good when hitting many targets at once and/or if you are attacking faster than 1 attack per second. Which also means that if you are attacking a target at a speed of less than 1 attack per second, you are definitely negatively affected as well.

[Cyandana]

I still don't understand why Channeling Drain rate is a flat amount

Should scale with attack speed of weapon for attacking and some average beween clip size/RoF for blocking.

[matrixEXO]

I still don't understand why Channeling Drain rate is a flat amount

Should scale with attack speed of weapon for attacking and some average beween clip size/RoF for blocking.

 

That's because they are using a unified system. Which actually helps in reducing the amount of information clutter but currently doesn't help the game any more than it detriments it.

 

As for scaling with attack speed, that's just a terrible bandaid idea. Sure, it may solve the fact that some weapons drain more than others but it doesn't solve the fact that it's still a terribly one dimensional design to begin with. You just get a +50% damage increase and that's it. No additional effects or anything to spice the melee category up outside of mods that affect channeling and I already gave my thoughts on that in the opening post.

 

One other thing, there isn't any ammo for melee weapons so how does Clip Size/Rate of Fire work again?

Edited February 9, 2016 by matrixEXO

[(PSN)DBR87]

That's because they are using a unified system. Which actually helps in reducing the amount of information clutter but currently doesn't help the game any more than it detriments it.

 

As for scaling with attack speed, that's just a terrible bandaid idea. Sure, it may solve the fact that some weapons drain more than others but it doesn't solve the fact that it's still a terribly one dimensional design to begin with. You just get a +50% damage increase and that's it. No additional effects or anything to spice the melee category up outside of mods that affect channeling and I already gave my thoughts on that in the opening post.

 

One other thing, there isn't any ammo for melee weapons so how does Clip Size/Rate of Fire work again?

 

I think he meant that when blocking gun fire while channeling it should scale depending on what is shooting at you. I honestly am not sure on how energy drain is calculated while channel blocking a shot guns 8 pellets versus a auto rifles 6 rounds per second. I would imagine it's on a per bullet basis regardles but not sure if one shot gun blast counts for a flat amount of energy drain when blocked or each pellet in the blast accounts for it's own energy drain.

[tnccs215]

I think he meant that when blocking gun fire while channeling it should scale depending on what is shooting at you. I honestly am not sure on how energy drain is calculated while channel blocking a shot guns 8 pellets versus a auto rifles 6 rounds per second. I would imagine it's on a per bullet basis regardles but not sure if one shot gun blast counts for a flat amount of energy drain when blocked or each pellet in the blast accounts for it's own energy drain.

Gotta test that.

Also, someone mentioned rate of for and ammo. Well... Channeling would increase its usefulness if a new resource was installed. That way, our Energy could be reserved for abilities.

Though simply making it more cheap would also be viable.

[ZakosDryiakk]

I think he meant that when blocking gun fire while channeling it should scale depending on what is shooting at you. I honestly am not sure on how energy drain is calculated while channel blocking a shot guns 8 pellets versus a auto rifles 6 rounds per second. I would imagine it's on a per bullet basis regardles but not sure if one shot gun blast counts for a flat amount of energy drain when blocked or each pellet in the blast accounts for it's own energy drain.

After a bit of testing, the energy cost that I got was... Well, I couldn't find a pattern yet. While level 10 ballistas, which did 148 damage to my chroma, made it cost 14 energy, level 20 did 249 damage and jumped the cost to 31 energy, while at level 30, they did 435 dmg while the energy cost was just at 39. And even considering the weapon blocking reduction, which was silva and aegis (thus, 85%), that wouldn't make much sense... At least, not linearly.

Anyways, unhappily it's pretty much an unusable mechanic, since the energy cost is absurdly high for any weapon after level 15~20, and the fact that shields and daggers both get 100% reduction, AND they also cost the same amount of energy doesn't make much sense (if they don't cost the same, the amount was extremely close, as what I've seen). Shields should have a lesser cost to channeled block, considering that... They're shields, and stuff.

It's like they put it out for parrying, but... parrying is bit hard to pull off consistently (you might eat up 100~150 energy trying to parry one enemy alone), so, majorly not worth it...

So, another thing to check on the channeling subject.