De, Please Acknowledge The Bad Infestation Design.

[vats3]

 

 

You're looking at the short-term rewards, though. In the long run, income will be higher if they take the time to do what is best for the game. If they did what is best for an immediate profit, the game would suffer, and since the game would suffer, not as many people would play it. Since not as many people would play it, it would generate less income.

I like to look at things realistically and unbiased instead of the idealistic biases you have made. You cant just ignore the amount of work that it would require then complain when they dont do it, "the amount of work is irrelvent"? is it really? or is just the amount of work something that people dont like to think about when they suggest something. Shouldent you think about what others have to do to do what you are asking before you ask it? 

 

on to the next big thing, just saying "there needs to be change" or "it needs to be better" dosent help the devs to much, you say the changes are also irreverent, then what is now relevant? changes and work are no longer relevant now all thats left is an idealistic hope that you will make things better by crying out saying how they need to be better. Saying things need to be better dosent help a team of devs, any artist understands there art is never perfect but when they ask you what they could do to fix it "make it better" is not an answer 

 

the loss of income i was refering to is due to lack of progressive change, a large rework would take alot of there team, meaning that they would lose the abilty to add new content as often, and when they lose all this new content they lose income to. As well as the fact that infest generate no income while the dojo and update 8 in general generated alot of income due to its large plat base 

 

And lastly im looking as the path you are looking at the destination, it seems im just being pessimistic because im not looking at the destination but im not for a reason. I am trying to show you the path, you see the destination aswell as anyone else dose already, a better game (well in your opinion  that is) and there is nothing wrong with that aslong as you can think about the path that has to be taken. But aslong as you think "i like this so others must also like this" then you wont be able to see all of the path (im refering to how you say less would play it if they dont rework the infested but i personally believe working on a more deserving problem would instead incress the player base)

 

anyways, god I really get defensive and attacky for no reason ya know? I mean no offense, i like to show others "the other side"

[Grefter]

Could you stop jumping down the guy's throat about Infested not being scary or difficult to survive?  He is pretty clearly expressing that he enjoys them because they invoke a similar aesthetic to other games that are labelled Survival Horror.

 

They are  humans that have had their bodies twisted completely unnaturally and then proceed to mindlessly attack you.

 

Their levels are all far darker than the other two factions with low ambient lighting and your Frame's flashlight as your primary light source.

 

So even if they themselves don't fit a definition of Survival Horror (which if they don't you need to watch more Horror) that you are functioning off there is nothing in that which would get in the way of another player who enjoys that aesthetic from enjoying Infested Missions.  He didn't say he liked them because they are survival horror.  He said he likes them because he likes that kind of thing, which if you compare to the examples he uses of Resident Evil or Dead Space, is a pretty direct parallel to another visual design that appeals to him.  Your interpretation vs his of the genre completely aside.

 

So chill out with that line of argument because while I was feeling compelled to say this my friends just got Thunderbolt from Xini without me.  Dammit.

[RyojinOrion]

I like to look at things realistically and unbiased instead of the idealistic biases you have made. You cant just ignore the amount of work that it would require then complain when they dont do it, "the amount of work is irrelvent"? is it really? or is just the amount of work something that people dont like to think about when they suggest something. Shouldent you think about what others have to do to do what you are asking before you ask it? 

 

on to the next big thing, just saying "there needs to be change" or "it needs to be better" dosent help the devs to much, you say the changes are also irreverent, then what is now relevant? changes and work are no longer relevant now all thats left is an idealistic hope that you will make things better by crying out saying how they need to be better. Saying things need to be better dosent help a team of devs, any artist understands there art is never perfect but when they ask you what they could do to fix it "make it better" is not an answer

 

To be frank here, you're mixing two different points together in both those paragraphs.

 

First paragraph: The amount of work is irrelevant TO WHETHER OR NOT THE CHANGE WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE GAME OR WHETHER THE CHANGE SHOULD EVEN BE DISCUSSED. "It's too hard" is nothing more than whining, and we don't need any more whining around here than what we already have.

 

Second paragraph: The specific changes being made are irrelevant to the attempt to get across the point listed in the line above this one. I'll chalk this one up to a misunderstanding because I wasn't making myself as clear as I should have been.

 

 

 

 

a large rework would take alot of there team, meaning that they would lose the abilty to add new content as often,

 

This is the very thing that I am disagreeing with here. They don't have to devote ALL their resources to this change. They can still fairly easily push out new content as well as work on existing content. The Dojo example showed this perfectly: They worked on a huge update while still putting out new content. Really, what is so hard to understand about this?

 

 

 

And lastly im looking as the path you are looking at the destination, it seems im just being pessimistic because im not looking at the destination but im not for a reason. I am trying to show you the path, you see the destination aswell as anyone else dose already, a better game (well in your opinion  that is) and there is nothing wrong with that aslong as you can think about the path that has to be taken. But aslong as you think "i like this so others must also like this" then you wont be able to see all of the path (im refering to how you say less would play it if they dont rework the infested but i personally believe working on a more deserving problem would instead incress the player base)

 

You're mistaken if you think I can't see the path to the destination... I never said it would be easy or cheap. In fact, I will state here right now that it is neither. But that can't deter you from trying to make the best product you can. That is all I was trying to say.

 

 

 

anyways, god I really get defensive and attacky for no reason ya know? I mean no offense, i like to show others "the other side"

 

You have no idea how much I appreciate that line. I feel ya, man, I'm thinking the exact same thing on my end.

 

 

 

Could you stop jumping down the guy's throat about Infested not being scary or difficult to survive?  He is pretty clearly expressing that he enjoys them because they invoke a similar aesthetic to other games that are labelled Survival Horror.

Sorry, I intended it to be more an attack on how lightly things are labeled as Survival Horror than an attack on him thinking that the Infested invoke a similar aesthetic to games labeled that way. No offense intended.

Edited June 8, 2013 by RyojinOrion

[vats3]

(master response post gooooo) 

@Grefter

sorry i just get alittle annoyed at what now is survival horror, im afride of a classic survival horror that is so not my type of game and i will admit it. honestly the infected would fit in the current idea of survival horrors genre but that is no one fault but the survival horror genre itself.

 

@Ryojin 

I have lost the will to respond paragraph by paragraph anymore we are just now writing essays at each other and i just graduated highschool today imma save the essay writing for college in afew months. All I really have to say is find the roots of the problem and dig them out of the devs if you want them to fix it, we can talk about what we want all day but unless we start going out of our way to work for this then we really arent doing anything to help fix the problem. What I mean is start asking things like "why is the infested bad or problematic" then go farther and say "so this is why they are bad but why is it they are like this? could it be an intentional thing to make them be harder to fight or is it just a problem?" then think "how could this be fix, and dose this really need to be reworked?"

 

like for the ancients "why is it bad" well they strong, very tanky, take little damage and have very powerful abiltys "why is this bad" it makes them very hard to fight, and can kill some one who isent prepared to fight them that could kill a grineer heavy of the same lvl "is this intentional for difficulty?" yeah but maybe it gose to far and the problem isent them being hard to fight but being to hard to fight. And lastly "how can this be fix, can it be done without a rework?" well a rework could be done but changes in stats could help too, less damage reduction and low power and consistency of powers they have and they could become more manageable 

 

I hope that will help you look at things more constructively 

[RyojinOrion]

@Ryojin 

I have lost the will to respond paragraph by paragraph anymore we are just now writing essays at each other and i just graduated highschool today imma save the essay writing for college in afew months. All I really have to say is find the roots of the problem and dig them out of the devs if you want them to fix it, we can talk about what we want all day but unless we start going out of our way to work for this then we really arent doing anything to help fix the problem. What I mean is start asking things like "why is the infested bad or problematic" then go farther and say "so this is why they are bad but why is it they are like this? could it be an intentional thing to make them be harder to fight or is it just a problem?" then think "how could this be fix, and dose this really need to be reworked?"

 

Agreed. I just don't like it when "It's too much work" is used as an excuse, ya know? I may have overreacted to it, though. Whoops. -_-

[Nagisawa]

I like fighting infested.

 

I actually have to move during Infested levels.

Not when they swarm you, you can't move.  I've had so many cheap deaths that I couldn't avoid because I had no energy for any of my powers, or I can't jump over them because they keep knocking me down.

 

The Infested hit too hard, and have to much health.  DE, fix please.

[RyojinOrion]

Not when they swarm you, you can't move.  I've had so many cheap deaths that I couldn't avoid because I had no energy for any of my powers, or I can't jump over them because they keep knocking me down.

 

The Infested hit too hard, and have to much health.  DE, fix please.

 

The secret is to dodgeroll. Their stuns will miss and it will give you enough time to get away without getting stunlocked.

 

Honestly, I think their damage is just about right, and their health is a bit on the low side, but that's just my personal opinion. The thing that really needs changing is how easy it is for them to stunlock you, and how pretty much every single attack from every enemy either stuns you or knocks you on your &#!.

[vats3]

Agreed. I just don't like it when "It's too much work" is used as an excuse, ya know? I may have overreacted to it, though. Whoops. -_-

It was a lack of understanding between us, I was commenting on a single fix and you thought I was commenting on it as a whole, I am aginst the idea of a rework, hell if they are going to rework infested why not make a new variant infested as a new enemy type as people like myself do enjoy fighting them. But thats beside the point, I was just saying that the one method used in that post would have been alot of work, tons of new models to the point all current infested would almost need to all be scraped. And once more topic, just try and ask those questions to yourself post the answers and we can possibly work out a good solution alright? i don't find a problem with it so i cant really do this myself so its up to you.

 

Lets work together ^.^

[vats3]

Not when they swarm you, you can't move.  I've had so many cheap deaths that I couldn't avoid because I had no energy for any of my powers, or I can't jump over them because they keep knocking me down.

 

The Infested hit too hard, and have to much health.  DE, fix please.

the trick is slashing weapons 3x damage is amazing, something like the hate or the new pole arm with max range and charge damage is a for sure one shot no mater the lvl 

[Cleesus]

The infested still have many problems, they are annoying at best

[mmSNAKE]

High level infested are the only challenge this game has. Every other enemy type has extreme weak spots that are too easy to exploit. Ancients are the ONLY thing that give any resistance from being completely steamrolled.

 

Sure some ancient mechanics aren't perfect, but overall one thing infested do over other two factions is force you constantly move. None of pop from behind cover, fire few shots then back to cover.

 

Frost nullifies almost ANY threat that corpus or Grineer have. He only needs a good weapon and there is virtually nothing they can throw at you that you can't handle. They HAVE to come close to you, where they lose their advantage, this is especially true with corpus.

 

infested come to you, where they are strong, and there are very few things you can do to stop that. You have to deal with it, and that is a good thing.

[PaperAlien]

Infested is by far the most frustrating and least fun faction to fight. Their entire challenge resides in stuns and removing entire game mechanics (disruptors).

Overview of units:

Chargers- come in large numbers, each single attack can stagger a player midmelee, has a very vague headbox.

Runners- come in large numbers, and getting hit by one will quite inevitably lead to the entire pack surrounding you and detonating as you recover. I get the entire "punishing players for making mistakes" thing, but generally, you design these things to punish players for the initial mistake, you don't punish them for being punished for the initial mistake.

Leapers- Actually play fair in theory, big windup is a very obvious warning, but in practise is often unavoidable anyway when you're getting stunned by the others.

Crawlers- Don't do much, but are nice touches to surprise players

Ancients in general- Bullet sponges, staggering tentacle attacks are annoying, knockdown tentacle attacks are complete bs, often setting you up for chain knockdowns when multiple ancients are present (which they often are). Extra points if one of them is a disruptor.

Healers- Decently designed apart from the above flaws that ancients in general have.

Disruptors- Absolutely the worst thing in the game. 1 single attack from them will drain ALL your shields AND energy (or knock you down and THEN drain your energy/shields). It's complete overkill for such a small mistake, and especially unreasonable in higher difficulties where there's a lot of disruptors.

Toxics- Okay, I guess.

 

Now put this in a game alongside factions like the Corpus, and you can easily see why my Corpus kills is about twice as much as my infestation kills.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

 

Funny, I can roll-dodge their attacks just fine if I time it right.

 

 

Not surprised for generic preudo-pro to anwser like that.

[RyojinOrion]

Not surprised for generic preudo-pro to anwser like that.

 

All I was saying is that it IS possible to dodge while in range, contrary to what was said in the post I was quoting. It just takes good timing, that's all.

[evilkyle24]

Infested is by far the most frustrating and least fun faction to fight. Their entire challenge resides in stuns and removing entire game mechanics (disruptors).

Overview of units:

Chargers- come in large numbers, each single attack can stagger a player midmelee, has a very vague headbox.

Runners- come in large numbers, and getting hit by one will quite inevitably lead to the entire pack surrounding you and detonating as you recover. I get the entire "punishing players for making mistakes" thing, but generally, you design these things to punish players for the initial mistake, you don't punish them for being punished for the initial mistake.

Leapers- Actually play fair in theory, big windup is a very obvious warning, but in practise is often unavoidable anyway when you're getting stunned by the others.

Crawlers- Don't do much, but are nice touches to surprise players

Ancients in general- Bullet sponges, staggering tentacle attacks are annoying, knockdown tentacle attacks are complete bs, often setting you up for chain knockdowns when multiple ancients are present (which they often are). Extra points if one of them is a disruptor.

Healers- Decently designed apart from the above flaws that ancients in general have.

Disruptors- Absolutely the worst thing in the game. 1 single attack from them will drain ALL your shields AND energy (or knock you down and THEN drain your energy/shields). It's complete overkill for such a small mistake, and especially unreasonable in higher difficulties where there's a lot of disruptors.

Toxics- Okay, I guess.

 

Now put this in a game alongside factions like the Corpus, and you can easily see why my Corpus kills is about twice as much as my infestation kills.

I couldn't agree more, the disruptors are @(*()$ bullS#&$. One hit and your shields are gone? Overpowered. Every attack the infested do is a knockdown or a stagger, and you are quickly stunlocked by even a small number of them.

The toxics are somewhat OP because they hit your health directly, and when combined with their "Knock you on your &#!" moves, you can be killed in a single hit from one.

 

The infested are the only thing worse than the loot system.

[biggstobacco]

the infested ai is fking stupid, they can never make up their mind what to attack which is really frustrating.. plus the unavoidable knockbacks and energy sapp are so annoying considering how bs it is that u can dodge behind them and it convienently locks on to you

 

STOP RUNNING AROUND I AM TRYING TO KILL YOU! :)

[biggstobacco]

Not when they swarm you, you can't move.  I've had so many cheap deaths that I couldn't avoid because I had no energy for any of my powers, or I can't jump over them because they keep knocking me down.

 

The Infested hit too hard, and have to much health.  DE, fix please.

 

Sorry, but this is COMPLETELY a learn to play issue. Plenty of players deal with it just fine, therefore it is not bad design, but, rather, that you are not skilled enough (yet) to deal with it. Keep trying, practice makes perfect.

[Estred]

Infested only really become troublesome when Ancients start becoming walking billion-bullet sponges that you CANNOT allow to touch you. I don't see that as a fault on their design, though, but rather how the enemy leveling system works as things go from 50 and up.

Isn't that only on high-up Defense missions though? The game wasn't built for level 60+ the values for HP/Damage are probably hitting exponential curves thus getting very large.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Estred

[Grilleds]

I find Infested to be the easiest faction to fight by far, even when I'm poorly equipped to fight them.

[fatpig84]

I find Infested to be the easiest faction to fight by far, even when I'm poorly equipped to fight them.

 

All you need is a good slashing weapon, a little fire damage some common sense.

Ember doesn't even need those.

 

Ancients might be tough but  if you are smart about it, they aren't really a threat.

Anyhow I concede that slotting an enemy radar makes fighting Infested a cakewalk, I no longer get surprised.

 

Heck I even took it off for more OH SHI moments with an Ancient right behind myself.

Edited June 9, 2013 by fatpig84

[Raidyr]

I find Grineer more annoying than Infested.

 

Oh boy, roller stun into scorpion grab into shield knockdown into heavy gunner blast. Can I control my space ninja yet?

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

The infested's entire thing is that they're a mindless zerg of goobly spacemonsters. What more do you want?

[PaperAlien]

The infested's entire thing is that they're a mindless zerg of goobly spacemonsters. What more do you want?

I want a faction of mindless zerg of goobly spacemonsters that DON'T rely on stunlocks to kill players and aren't incredibly easy and boring to kill using a specific strategy and annoying as sh*t for any other strategy.

Edited June 9, 2013 by PaperAlien

[MalusCalibur]

The Infestation's only real problem is their over-abundance of stun/stagger - every single enemy has it in some form and can make fighting them incredibly frustrating and unfun. Ancients only compound this problem with their multitude of other tricks - sliding toward you in mid attack animation, being practically immune to cloaking, and the ability to hit you, guaranteed, if you're in range.

 

I'm all for a challenge, and certainly I wouldn't say they need 'nerfing' per se. All that's really needed is to tone done their ability to take control from you.

 

That said, the Grineer are *far* worse. Between Rollers and Scorpions (who really have not been fixed) it's difficult to bring myself to face Grineer at all these days.

Edited June 9, 2013 by MalusCalibur

[Scyyn]

Congrats you make no sense here either. What does endless defense have to do with survival horror ? or are you saying that the cartoony infested design actually scares you ?

You know it's not survival horror when you're not surviving but killing thousands of enemies right ?

How do you expect for people to take you seriously when you make posts like these ?

Can you chill?

You need to take yourself less seriously.