To nerf or not to nerf

[Bobthehobbe]

So I've been searching the forums for a while today and all i see is nerf him/her and buff him/her.

First, I agree that Ex's 1st is better than almost anyone elses, but Volt's 4th is better. But should you actually nerf them?

I dont think so. I say everything should be brought up to their level of killing power.

But heres the problem, the "More experienced" players want more of a challenge. Yet that will make it harder for the newer players or ppl that arent as good at the game. So the question is whos side do you take?

If you nerf it then you attractless players because its to hard for first timers, but you will keep the hardcore players and they will spend more money then a new guy that rarely plays. But it will probably kill half the community like Mass Effect did with its constant nerfing.

Or

If you buff all the abilities you will make it easier, and more than likely, you'll lose the hardcore gamers because no challenge=no fun.

So who should you pick? Why not both? I say buff everything (make them balanced with each other first), Just make the current mode Bronze(Easy) and make 2-4 more harder modes and offer increase drop rates and increased credit for higher modes.

[ttv_Typical_Tilly]

Personally right now I would rather them develop the game than balance the frames. being that its not PVP.

[warpkon]

The real problem(in any game) are people crying about class X because the one skill is more useful than a skill of class Y which they are playing as main character.

Otherwise I could argue against that as well.

It's just common human behavior.

[Bobthehobbe]

I agree, development over balance, but If they listen to some people like Mass Effect did, it will be terrible, they will nerf everything into the ground. And then only siper hardcore player will play and the game will fail which is what I want to prevent.

I just want to be able to get friends to play and them not hate it cause its way to hard on the first level.

[direcyphre]

The real problem(in any game) are people crying about class X because the one skill is more useful than a skill of class Y which they are playing as main character.

Otherwise I could argue against that as well.

It's just common human behavior.

That's about the gist of it!

Although once there are some real stealth mechanics in play, there won't be as much complaining about Ash and Loki.

[Bobthehobbe]

Loki seems to be the most annoying Warframe, 90% of ppl that use him take me out of combat so they can get in or ill run around and down an elevator and they switch with me. So annoying when he does that, Otherwise i got no problem with him. Just when ppl troll, then i hate him. XD

[EclecticDragon]

Loki seems to be the most annoying Warframe, 90% of ppl that use him take me out of combat so they can get in or ill run around and down an elevator and they switch with me. So annoying when he does that, Otherwise i got no problem with him. Just when ppl troll, then i hate him. XD

Personally I've never had a Loki switch me, the only one to ever had switch teleport used on me was due to the Grineer comanders being $&*^s.

[kaizoku222]

There needs to be challenge content and standard content to fix the potential problems that would happen if frames powers were normalized around the stronger end. I agree that buffing up is the better way to go, and to prevent content from being trivialized two things needs to happen.

One is scaling, but because of the kind of game it is this needs to be handled in a specific way. Just buffing HP of mobs across the board will have a lot of bad effects, and the engine can't handle 4x the mobs. So the solution would be to double the mobs at max, and only buff the HP/damage of mini-bosses and bosses while also buffing drop rates. This would make it to where all the frames actually need that kind of power, while having a reason to actually use it. The game is more fun when you have more situations to use abilities in to better effect, nerfing would reduce skill use across the board.

The second is challenge content. Right now alerts are the only challenge content aside from pluto, I would propose that a version of alerts be always availible as a hard mode for some maps. Higher hp on minis/bosses, more mobs, more mob types, anything to stay away from artificial difficulty. These hard modes would have higher drop rates and better drops along with more credits/exp but would be very tough to solo at the equivalent level giving a reward to people who have built really strong frames and know how to use them.

[Bobthehobbe]

I must have real bad luck. XD Loki's always switch me. Stupid trolls.

[Bobthehobbe]

There needs to be challenge content and standard content to fix the potential problems that would happen if frames powers were normalized around the stronger end. I agree that buffing up is the better way to go, and to prevent content from being trivialized two things needs to happen.

One is scaling, but because of the kind of game it is this needs to be handled in a specific way. Just buffing HP of mobs across the board will have a lot of bad effects, and the engine can't handle 4x the mobs. So the solution would be to double the mobs at max, and only buff the HP/damage of mini-bosses and bosses while also buffing drop rates. This would make it to where all the frames actually need that kind of power, while having a reason to actually use it. The game is more fun when you have more situations to use abilities in to better effect, nerfing would reduce skill use across the board.

The second is challenge content. Right now alerts are the only challenge content aside from pluto, I would propose that a version of alerts be always availible as a hard mode for some maps. Higher hp on minis/bosses, more mobs, more mob types, anything to stay away from artificial difficulty. These hard modes would have higher drop rates and better drops along with more credits/exp but would be very tough to solo at the equivalent level giving a reward to people who have built really strong frames and know how to use them.

Obviously this guy knows whats up.

I agree with you completely.

[cypherhalo]

Personally right now I would rather them develop the game than balance the frames. being that its not PVP.

I have to agree with this sentiment. Also, being that it is PvE I see little reason why the devs couldn't eventually create "Nightmare" modes or other extreme difficulty settings for the "hardcore" gamers. Those guys would, I hope, be patient with the fact that this game is still in closed beta. A less experienced player probably won't be so patient if everything is nerfed to the point you need mad skill to use it. Overall, the "normal" mode should be balanced towards the newbies IMO. If you get 10,000 people who each pay $5, that is a lot more then 100 people who each spend $500. To me, that is how an F2P game should work.

Also, I definitely favor buffs over nerfs.

Edited January 22, 2013 by cypherhalo

[Zakalwe]

I say everything should be brought up to their level of killing power.

Power creep. This is a bad thing.

THey need to meet in the middle somewhere, imo.

[Bobthehobbe]

Either way no one will be happy, you buff people will complain, neff and they'll complain.

But id rather them buff(if they add a hard mode) and game be easy then to hard to play for new people.

[Malkav]

If you buff al the abilities and make them OP in general the game will become harder to balance. Why do you think that MMOs tend to nerf and not to buff their games. The only solution is to make a balanced game is making everything equal and that is exponentially harder to do if you have more than one factor contributing to a skills effectiveness.

[Sev7n]

I think no one should honestly say if one class is overpowered and another is underpowered yet untill new tile sets are released. Right now all we have is the cronus ship which of course volt is going to have the advantage in since he does electrical damage, and the corpus ship, is full of electrical things that like to blow up xD. In future tile sets there will be different environments which may prove to make a different frame like loki or ember seem "OP". Before people push for "balance" in the classes let the dev's build the rest of the game first so we can compare them on more than one tile set map.

[UkyoSonoda]

Excessive power creep hurts just as much as excessive nerfing. Though I feel alot of the inbalance currently is a result of a lack of environments, enemies, and challenges, coupled with limited player options.

[Asagiri]

I feel that nerfing things in PvE games should absolutely never be anything but a last resort. It's understandable in PvP, but AI don't get to whine about how things are imbalanced. Better to buff things up, so that they're used alongside the "OP" things, than nerf the "OP" things and have everyone feeling iffy on using them now that "they suck".

[SweetBread]

I just start to play, and actually dont care about my skills, because sometimes i just dont have energy for it. This is co-op game and i play with my friend, sometimes just funnier to do some supression fire neither 1 boring skill that can deal tons of damage, of some good old fashioned berserker melee rush.So, for me it depends on your play style, probably when you start some serious theory crafting you just loose fun part

[neKroMancer]

Nerfing things that is already bought is certainly going to &!$$ players.

In most setting, buffing everything to balance one or two OP weapons/frames will create a power creep cycle which absolutely ruin the game. Nerfing a few powers/weapons to bring them down to others' level of efficiency is easier from developer's point of view. However, new content should fill a new niche that existing content fail to fill, not overwriting the existing content with an upgrade which render older contents obsolete.

A bad example of creating a new content which render older content obsolete or creating a content that 'has everything' is ME3MP. Every player who frequent the forum would be familiar with infiltrator/Krysae nerf war. Infiltrator can do everything ranging from extreme utility to extreme DPS thus a bad design from the start. Krysae was an abomination rocket launcher/sniper hybrid. Bioware devs certainly forgot to test their content before release since combo of these two turned into an epidemic. This particularly bad example ended when bioware decided to nerf Krysae into state of uselessness. Infiltrator was heavily nerfed but turned to be on par with other classes.

Nerfing has its own use in PvE setting. All contents should have an equal opportunity to reach endgame. It should not be restricted to a few über contents. Both buffing and nerfing should be implemented in moderacy to minimize impact to players. Some players will inevitably pay for contents and nerfing things that they bought is bad business.

Creating a nightmare mode will resulted in a new endgame content which does not solve anything.

[Zakalwe]

Nerfing things that is already bought is certainly going to &!$$ players.

See: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/28-closed-beta-agreement-read-me/#entry117

Specifically:

e. The Closed Beta will change often and possibly without notice. Weapons, Warframes, and every feature of the game may change as often as every day. We will keep you synced to these changes with patching, at which time our computers will be connected. By agreeing to these terms, you express consent for patching.

-

The rest of your post I agree with.

[Leha_Meloman]

First, I agree that Ex's 1st is better than almost anyone elses, but Volt's 4th is better. But should you actually nerf them?

Volt's.

Ex need find a good position for strike multiple targets. It's not easy, because enemies on the move. Volt need only "peow". When Ex find position for attack all enemies will be dead. Guess who will kill them before?

[Lers]

Volt's.

Ex need find a good position for strike multiple targets. It's not easy, because enemies on the move. Volt need only "peow". When Ex find position for attack all enemies will be dead. Guess who will kill them before?

Only depends on the situation. Volt's costs a base 100 nrg and elites laugh at it. Ex's costs 25 and has quite a punch behind it even on elites. Both very powerful abilities.

Middle ground is the way to go, slightly nerfing overly useful abilities and buffing weak / useless ones. Ex's and Volt's skill excel at genocide... and since we really dont need anything else at the moment to complete missions other abilities feel useless.

[Bobthehobbe]

Well one way you could go is shorten Ex's dash length.

And for Volt's make it to where it does double current damage to robotics like Jackal. But halves damage to organics. (So basically half damage to soldiers but double to robots and some boss.) Only problem is this might make it underpower due to the fact that only half the units in 1 of 3 factions are robotic and he is left very open during the ability

[Neverus]

There always will be people that will find something too strong or too weak and making them all happy is impossible...I dont think that its bad that Excaliburs skill is most damaging one, from what i played this frame and its image itself says, its damage dealer, every frame should have his specalities something that makes it different and fun. For Excalibur its dmg, as this isnt realy pvp oriented (for now anyway) game and its this way someone says i dont have enough chalenge becouse i kill everything with one skill? use different frame, someone has problem to kill anything? take frame thats simpler to play and has high dmg skills >_> ...

If we start to nerf and buff rather them make every frame playable, special in some way then we will get traditional mmorpg were u will have to have full party with warrior with litle HP so he needs wizard thats has crowd control but no dmg or hp and tank that has hp and some crowd control but no dmg... cause by themselfs, they cant do a thing... is what i think.

Oh this ended up somehow long so sry if there are some typos, english isnt my mother language. ^^

[aheed]

I would not nerf Excalibur or Volt, i think the other frames need some buffs they are not bad just need a little extra. Or their survivability abilities should stand out more.