I Really, Really Love Valkyr, but... (I don't love being permanently invincible)

[Specific.Zod]

On 5/3/2016 at 4:36 PM, KaneAshe said:

On the other hand, there really isn't much reason to NOT use Hysteria.

There's a lot of people saying something to the effect of "Don't like Hysteria? Just don't use it!".

That's not a solution guys. If a problem exists it should be fixed, not ignored.

Fixing Hysteria will hopefully open Valk up to get improvements in other areas to make her less of a one-trick pony. (...Or maybe it'll be like Valsako said and she'll end up like Mesa with a lackluster kit and mediocre 4th. I'd be willing to take that risk though, I still like Mesa.)

There is many reason to not use Hysteria:

- No guns restriction

- Killing potentail

- No revive machine.

etc...

People are right and you are wrong OP.

Fixing Hysteria (remove Invicibility) help nothing for valkyr.

Want super resistance? Chroma, trinity. NO WEAPONS RESTRICTION.

Want super cc? Nova, vauban, etc... NO WEAPONS RESTRICTION

Team buff? Nova, saryn, banshee (armour buff is really much useless) NO WEAPONS RESTRICTION.

You are willing to take that risk, but we are not.

You said want to change valkyr, but you only focus on Hysteria Invicibility and seem to have no concern about her sub-par kit.

Her kit is no diffirent than Mesa. And you know what happened to Mesa.

Invicibility and one target killing is her unique.

Remove invicibility, put in sub-par damage resistance and "MELEE restriction"; you better delete her from the game.

It do not need rocket scientist to realize what you want to do is just "ma frame has no invicibility, nerf valkyr".

[D0DECA]

2 hours ago, tripletriple said:

So you want to completely destroy hysteria?

Yes, please destroy that ability. Annihilate that broken concept of an invincible melee-frame. This is beyond any issue there ever was with any supposedly overpowered Frame and their disproportional powernerf. This is about a practically indefinite God Mode wich has no reason to exist in a role based, teamplay oriented multiplayer game. This ability is not only counterintuitive to the basic concept of this game, it is destructive for the groth of every new player and the quality of this community.

There is nothing in this game you can't do without it and I'll bet on 1000P, if you're any good and inclined to play cooperatively you won't even miss it.

Edited March 8, 2016 by DNG0

[KaneAshe]

1 hour ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

I agree that a lot of Frames that offer Damage resistance do so in the wrong way, be it either offering to much or exploitable. And your augments are at the least something that would make her kit on par with the earlier said. They do however still have the side effect of not offering anything without a sacrifice.

You need to spend mod slots to make her kit on par with other frames with the augments and her armor buff would still only benefit her and a few other frames at best and although you added it is recast-able it still cost to much to work as a reliable CC compare to the other options (I do have to state that about 80% of all Crowd control skills are to strong in this game so if anything the way Valkyres Hysteria would work should be the example that the other should be toned down to or around.)

But in the current state you can't change her without doing a complete rework of either her skills or with most other game designs. Your ideas are not bad, but at best she would become a weaker hybrid that can do a lot of things but at the same time being terrible at everything of it compared to the other choices.

I agree with your assessment of the Augment situation. Needing 3 Augments to have 3 decent skills is a bad thing. So my proposal still needs some work in that regard.

As for the damage resistance, with +100% Armor from Warcry and 50% Damage Reduction from Hysteria, Valk will reach 93% damage resistance with only Steel Fiber. All you have to do is tweak one number or the other to give her toughness on par with Chroma, plus she already has her built-in lifesteal so it may not even be needed. (Another interesting alternative is to remove the lifesteal, and give her a set amount of health per kill which can "Overheal". That would be a lot more fun and interesting than lifesteal or generic damage resistance.)

The more important issue is whether or not she is bringing enough damage to the table since she is obviously not meant to be a utility character. Which is why I came up with a unique way of fixing her "short-range woes". With my proposal she would gain a tool to do a huge amount of AoE damage by stacking up kills in Hysteria and converting the stacking damage bonus into AoE splash damage. The only question is whether or not +5% per kill is enough.

I have no doubt whatsoever that it would be borderline OP to be able to continually gain damage as you kill enemies, so with the appropriate number values she would become completely unrivaled in melee mass-destruction, and that would be her compensation for losing the Invulnerability.

So I think that rather being a "weaker hybrid", I think my proposal would turn her into the ultimate melee-specialist who is not very good at anything except murdering things very quickly with melee attacks. Which imo, is exactly what she should be.

The difficult part is just balancing her other skills so that they all feel worthwhile to use both in and out of Hysteria.

Edited March 9, 2016 by KaneAshe

[evilfluffy]

If you don't like using a hysteria build don't use it I use a build that rarely needs it even in sorties so hysteria is not the only thing that makes her viable.  I am saying this because Valkyr is one of my mains.  That being said most hysteria Valkyrs seem to die instantly outside of it.

Its like I don't like being invincible but I'm going to spec for a power that makes me invincible then wonder why I'm unhappy(bored) with this frame.

Edited March 8, 2016 by evilfluffy

[Specific.Zod]

15 minutes ago, KaneAshe said:

I agree with your assessment of the Augment situation. Needing 3 Augments to have 3 decent skills is a bad thing. So my proposal still needs some work in that regard.

As for the damage resistance, with +100% Armor from Warcry and 50% Damage Reduction from Hysteria, Valk will reach 93% damage resistance with only Steel Fiber. All you have to do is tweak one number or the other to give her toughness on par with Chroma, plus she already has her built-in lifesteal so it may not even be needed.

The more important issue is whether or not she is bringing enough damage to the table since she is obviously not meant to be a utility character. Which is why I came up with a unique way of fixing her "short-range woes". With my proposal she would gain a tool to do a huge amount of AoE damage by stacking up kills in Hysteria and converting the stacking damage bonus into AoE splash damage. The only question is whether or not +5% per kill is enough.

I have no doubt whatsoever that it would be borderline OP to be able to continually gain damage as you kill enemies, so with the appropriate number values she would become completely unrivaled in melee mass-destruction, and that would be her compensation for losing the Invulnerability.

So I think that rather being a "weaker hybrid", I think my proposal would turn her into the ultimate melee-specialist who is not very good at anything except murdering things very quickly with melee attacks. Which imo, is exactly what she should be.

The difficult part is just balancing her other skills so that they all feel worthwhile to use both in and out of Hysteria.

1. Chroma toughness come with weapon damage bonus, and 99.66% resistance.

2. Wow, a chroma with melee.

3. Encouraging people stay in hysteria all game for pity damage bonus. Sound familiar?

4. no she does not. a single target killing is the weakest type of killing in this game. She won't ever be on pair with other damage frame like Exalted excal. And she is already much weaker than Excal in melee mass-destruction with current hysteria.

5. Is she not now? Except for melee-specialist, she is "one target" specialist. It does not change the fact that her killing speed is slow compare to excal.

6. Do you even read your changes? Look at number 3, and energy cost in your new hysteria.

Excalibur can go EB build w/o even consider other 3 skills, is that bad?

Using a skill outside of Hysteria is for player to decide. If they do not use it, it's their lost.

Don't force it on player just like new saryn.

Valkyr IS NOT ABOUT MELEE KILLING, she is about Melee survival. Other frame is already excel her at what she can do, except for melee survival.

 

[KaneAshe]

2 minutes ago, evilfluffy said:

If you don't like using a hysteria build don't use it I use a build that rarely needs it even in sorties so hysteria is not the only thing that makes her viable.  I am saying this because Valkyr is one of my mains.  That being said most hysteria Valkyrs seem to die instantly outside of it.

I've already said elsewhere in the thread that I can't really agree with that perspective since I can't just ignore the problem... However, players like you prove that she doesn't actually need her invulnerability to be usable, which is an important fact. Taking it away just gives us a chance to add to her capabilities in much more unique and interesting ways.

[Specific.Zod]

7 hours ago, evilfluffy said:

If you don't like using a hysteria build don't use it I use a build that rarely needs it even in sorties so hysteria is not the only thing that makes her viable.  I am saying this because Valkyr is one of my mains.  That being said most hysteria Valkyrs seem to die instantly outside of it.

Its like I don't like being invincible but I'm going to spec for a power that makes me invincible then wonder why I'm unhappy(bored) with this frame.

She is boring. i know. because valkyr don't have mass-destruction ability like other frame. Valkyr is one of my main too.

Hysteria is not only thing make her viable, but it is what make her unkillable, which is pretty much what she can do now.

Viable =/= Useful. Just like how Mesa is viable as damage frame and paper tank, but her useful is one of lowests.

7 hours ago, KaneAshe said:

I've already said elsewhere in the thread that I can't really agree with that perspective since I can't just ignore the problem... However, players like you prove that she doesn't actually need her invulnerability to be usable, which is an important fact. Taking it away just gives us a chance to add to her capabilities in much more unique and interesting ways.

You are not ignore the problem, you are trying to force your opinion on others.

Mesa is useable w/o her peacemaker, is that what make her viable? No. it does not.

Taking away what make one frame useable w/o considering it's intended role is just like fix a tube to become a bowl. When remake a frame, you need to consider what it has to make it standout and could be considering to be picked. Not make it into another copycat.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Specific.Zod
Fix You are.

[evilfluffy]

2 hours ago, KaneAshe said:

I've already said elsewhere in the thread that I can't really agree with that perspective since I can't just ignore the problem... However, players like you prove that she doesn't actually need her invulnerability to be usable, which is an important fact. Taking it away just gives us a chance to add to her capabilities in much more unique and interesting ways.

True however I have yet to see a single idea that doesn't butcher hysteria (nor think of one myself).

Edited March 9, 2016 by evilfluffy

[crashapple12]

On 3/2/2016 at 9:32 AM, Gurpgork said:

I had been thinking of making a Valkyr thread similar to this, only with a lot of proposed changes alongside it, but ultimately decided against it. So thank you for making it. This is pretty much exactly what I've been thinking as someone who mained Valkyr until 17.5 came out.

That being said, talking about a problem and not offering solutions isn't productive. In the spirit of that notion, here are my proposed solutions for making Valkyr the demonic flurry of claws/personification of rage that she is supposed to be.

 

Hidden Content

 

the only thing i can realy add to this is say...

hold ripline to "mark" multiple targets aka quiver

have warcry's slow work in much the same way as equinox's "aura's" ( this is of course a personal preference it does get around the whole requiring to recast it which costs energy)

paralisis should also stun through ancient healers because for crying out loud blind, miasma, and accelerant do why not paralisis

and hysteria damage mitigation since mitigation is always better than armor since armor is still subject to the damage bonus from damage types

Edit:
there is a reason people like the invincibility i can understand this though permanent invincibility isn't exactly a great answer for that possibly make hysteria give temporary invincibility apon initiating it and whenever she does a finisher giving more reason to use paralisis adding a bit more skill to the invincibility


 

Edited March 9, 2016 by crashapple12

[(PSN)Crimson_Judgment]

Oh Yeah not sure if anyone else has noticed She has a charge attack in Hysteria now that uses finisher attacks

I Just noticed this Probably not the first but just in case anybody here didn't already know

[Specific.Zod]

43 minutes ago, Nox-Lamina said:

So one enemy type in one faction stops the fact that having a permanently immortal warframe is a problem. I know some warframe players hate the idea of balance, but is it REALLY at this point?

Shock Eximus, Leech Eximus, Scrambus, Comba, Nulifier say hello. Seem like a party to me. And what wrong with permanently immortal warframe is a problem? What about having a frame that use sword 40m away not a problem? A frame slow entire map not problem? A frame pretty much a moving battery not a problem?

[Nox-Lamina]

49 minutes ago, Specific.Zod said:

Shock Eximus, Leech Eximus, Scrambus, Comba, Nulifier say hello. Seem like a party to me. And what wrong with permanently immortal warframe is a problem? What about having a frame that use sword 40m away not a problem? A frame slow entire map not problem? A frame pretty much a moving battery not a problem?

Eximii aren't exactly flooding maps and the last 3 are corpus enemies only. Having an I-win button in a game is not good for balance, temporary invincibility (I'm not talking one minute plus) is fine.

Stop trying to derail the conversation, this is about immortality being a problem in game because it nullifies the death as a potential inconvenience to the player. Games are about solving problems, like the problem of staying alive while maintaining proper oxygen in survival, permanent immortality reduces it to maintaining oxygen. Sure the odd ability stopping enemy momentarily brings death back onto the table, but death shouldn't be a button press away from no longer being a concern.

[ScoutElite]

Dont press 4

[Epsik-kun]

How to remove Hysteria invulnerability without removing Hysteria invulnerability.

[AegisFury]

why the hell people have always have problem with any type of good stuff for example 'X' frame or weapon is good to use in the game and than player will call it OP they will do demand for a nerf for it, if 'Y' frame or weapon is weak in the game they will demand to make it good after some time of period when it receives a good stats after using it or got bored from it than they will say that 'Y' frame or weapon is OP , please give it a nerf. I mean seriously folks, what is your problem with the good stuff of the game , if you think that 'X' frame or weapon proving itself OP for you and making you bored, it is not necessary that other player is also experienced the same thing it can be possible the other player like the working mechanics of the 'X' frame or weapons. 

I saw many players that they give always a stupid reason that they want a balance frame or weapon, tell me what is the meaning of balance, dumb? 

 

[(XBOX)CitrusTheNile]

If Valkyr is so overpowered why did it take me 30 minutes to kill one juggernaut with augmented armor at level 80 in the sortie the other day? Yes I am aware that we should have stopped killing things, and I did, but that doesn't mean the people I was paired up with did. All I did was take the damage while the other guy who stuck around did 88% of the damage. During that long fight I had to use 4 large team energy restores because I kept running out of energy. If I wouldn't have had those energy restores my squad would have been screwed. So in the end, since there are things such as level 80 armor augmented juggernauts, there needs to be an "overpowered" frame such as Valkyr to take the damage so others can deal the damage. I could understand the reason for a change if Valkyr was far and above any enemy in the game. However, that is not the case. 

I also play many other frames based on the activity, so I don't understand how the OP gets away with playing Valkyr in EVERY situation. 

[D0DECA]

4 hours ago, Specific.Zod said:

Shock Eximus, Leech Eximus, Scrambus, Comba, Nulifier say hello. Seem like a party to me.

I'm very glad that those kinds of adversaries exist, because their appearance tend to show the inability of most Valkyr-players to play without Hysteria. Basically that is what's enraging me; this Frame is a tool for dweebs. If you (not you specifically, but anyone feeling addressed) enjoy beeing unkillable and having no reason to support your squad - in a cooperative multiplayer game I remind you - that's fine by me; just play solo then. Since man is man and they simply won't do that, the only solutions i see is to block her from public gameplay or take away the exploitable factor; invurnerability. If there was no invurnerability she'd still be good, her concept wouldn't change and with some of the ideas showcased in this thread she'd still be pretty tanky. She would just stop to be a no-brainer.

4 hours ago, Specific.Zod said:

What about having a frame that use sword 40m away not a problem? A frame slow entire map not problem? A frame pretty much a moving battery not a problem?

Again, this is not about assessing and comparing possibly broken concepts. These are topics for another discussion, but if you really wanna go there: The Frames having these abilities are pretty strong but do not isolate you from the squad. Hysteria does. The plain difference is; Those Frames make the mission easier for the whole squad, Valkyr makes it easier for only herself.

4 hours ago, Nox-Lamina said:

Stop trying to derail the conversation, this is about immortality being a problem in game because it nullifies the death as a potential inconvenience to the player. Games are about solving problems, like the problem of staying alive while maintaining proper oxygen in survival, permanent immortality reduces it to maintaining oxygen. Sure the odd ability stopping enemy momentarily brings death back onto the table, but death shouldn't be a button press away from no longer being a concern.

Thank you.

Edited March 9, 2016 by DNG0
minor

[Meice]

On 3/2/2016 at 0:59 AM, Gurpgork said:

I don't know about that... I've always thought Rip Line should be more of a mobility skill than anything else. 

Maybe it could be an augment? Something that made it pull a bunch of targets, but it loses the mobility aspect? Although that would be effectively a worse version of Mag's pull.

I just want the stupid slow-down when you're running and activating the skill gone.

[Gurpgork]

21 minutes ago, Meice said:

I just want the stupid slow-down when you're running and activating the skill gone.

I could seriously get behind that. Valkyr really wants to be extremely mobile, but she's riddled with bad cast times that leave her immobile. I guess it's okay for Warcry, since she only needs to cast it once, but with Rip Line and Paralysis, too? That's just an unnecessary restriction.

[crashapple12]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I could seriously get behind that. Valkyr really wants to be extremely mobile, but she's riddled with bad cast times that leave her immobile. I guess it's okay for Warcry, since she only needs to cast it once, but with Rip Line and Paralysis, too? That's just an unnecessary restriction.

if only paralisis was anywhere near as good as inaros' dessication

[BroQui]

I'm not sure if you all are tracking, but it seems as though Hysteria received a nerf. Some of you are happy that it did, but I'm very sad. 

Eximus now effects Hysteria with energy drain. 

Im not sure of numbers, but it seems as though the more damage Valk takes the more energy gets drained. 

I use to be able to run Hysteria for a whole survival. Now, when things get hairy, I have to drop cakes, unhysteria, block (or kill), then get back into Hysteria. 

So, in short, all you nerf criers got your way. Congrats. 

[crashapple12]

the problem with hysteria's invincibility comes down to the fact that with invincibility comes the crippling of other part's of her kit.

she has very limited range... because she has invincibility, paralisis has incredibly limited range and unreliable cc.... because she has invincibility, warcry's slow doesnt continuously apply to all enemies in its range while its active... because she has invincibility, ripcord flings enemies so hard and randomly.... because for 5 minutes mag's pull was broken

invincibility isn't something to take lightly even if you do enjoy it with true power comes sacrifice... otherwise something truly does become broken

[crashapple12]

3 minutes ago, BroQui said:

I'm not sure if you all are tracking, but it seems as though Hysteria received a nerf. Some of you are happy that it did, but I'm very sad. 

Eximus now effects Hysteria with energy drain. 

Im not sure of numbers, but it seems as though the more damage Valk takes the more energy gets drained. 

I use to be able to run Hysteria for a whole survival. Now, when things get hairy, I have to drop cakes, unhysteria, block (or kill), then get back into Hysteria. 

So, in short, all you nerf criers got your way. Congrats. 

that is mostly a problem with absurdly unfair the design of the energy leech eximus drain actually is, one can say its stopping ability spam... however it does not for people who don't rely on toggles can easily pop a pizza and flatten the map along with the eximus units on it

on a large mob of enemies it is incredibly hard to find exactly which is draining you and on top of that there is probably just another one spawned somewhere out of your line of sight you have to go hunting for. they didn't just nerf valkyr they nerfed all toggles mesa the hardest since her "toggle" is allready ridiculously friggen high since it never got rebalanced from hitting everything around her to a cone
 

and as for whether removing permanent invincibility nerfs valkyr or not it will be about what they do to the REST of her kit and not hysteria even if hysteria had 75% damage mitigation+ strength capping at 95%  that is still a massive amount of damage she is not taking add on top of that high lifesteal. also one realy should not forget the diference between armor damage mitigation and raw damage mitigation since each is in its own way defensive resource and raw mitigation is FAR more powerful than armor mitigation

also i feel i should point out the "damage" meter that calculates damage valkyr has been incredibly pointless since it was made a toggle anyone who has even the slightest idea of what it does can so easily avoid taking the said damage, when there was a duration you had to play around the fact that hysteria can and probably would end next to an enemy because you just wanted to sit in its face and do what valkyr is supposed to do... which is tear people into atoms which

[crashapple12]

12 minutes ago, Ellthan said:

A.) Trinity can use weapons, make the whole team invincible, can heal the entire team and has a faster casting animation.

B.) Loki. That's all.

C.) Try fighting 90 nullifiers at once with valkyr. I dare you.

and this is why the invincibility is bad because solely relying on a single power to survive is terrible design

also trinity does not make things invincible she only gives incredibly high damage mitigation and lets not talk of the state trinity is here since WoL and EV are either pointless (WoL) or are so inconsistant in builds (EV)mostly because of that whole -duration thing is frankly dumb and should never have been allowed to stay as long as it has)

Edit: on the loki statement, loki is a fairly high skill frame where if you screw up you are probably going to die, even if one can just bash away at a null sheild with an orthos p with reach or primed reach

Edited March 9, 2016 by crashapple12

[Foefaller]

Funny thing is, there is suppose to be a risk factor for Hysteria, where you take damage based on the damage inflicted by any still surviving enemies when the skill ends. If you never noticed this, it's probably because one or more of the following:

• Hysteria can easily be extended to effectively last forever, making killing everything before the power ends a trival matter for most missions, even soloing on higher level missions when you're fighting damage sponges that take several hits to kill (bosses with hard-to-melee weak points and energy leechers are the only times where this has ever been an issue for me.)
• The damage is always Impact damage, regardless of the actual damage inflicted. Not very intimidating on the 'frame with the lowest base shields and highest base armor.
• Actual damage is 25% of 30% of the damage actually inflicted... yeah (though it's the raw damage, not what she would have taken had she not been Hysteria'ing)
• It only uses the damage of enemies that are near Valkyr when the power ends (that aura that shows up as you run up to your target). Not only can you run away to wipe the aura and reset the damage, the range the aura is applied is effected by Power Range, meaning that Narrow Minded you slapped on your Valkyr so Hysteria lasts forever is also helping to reduce the number of potential damage sources that you have to worry about should there somehow still be survivors when it ends.

Anyway, I guess now's the point where I express my off-the-cuff, with little thought ideas for changes to Hysteria? Okay, here goes.

• Have Hysteria store all damage inflicted during it's duration, not just a % of damage from the still-living enemies closest to you when the power ends.
• When Hysteria ends, game takes the health gained from the lifesteal (which would no longer be applied immediately) and the damage dealt to you (might make this a % depending on factors) and subtracts the damage dealt from the lifesteal. If the number is positive, you gain health! If it's negative, you take damage.
• Hysteria now forces all nearby enemies to attack Valkyr; Have the option to distract enemies from defensive targets, at the risk of taking more damage than you ever hope to overcome from clawing off faces. Might be better to make this an augment mod (either for Hysteria, or another power like Warcry) rather than a base change
• Finally, some boost or multiplier effect to damage and/or lifesteal to make up for the fact you're also going to have to heal through all the damage you take, not just the damage you had when you first procced the skill. Extra damage would also make it scale better as a damage-dealing power, instead of just a means to survive everything.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Hysteria return to having a base duration, rather than be an energy drain (mainly so it can't be extended to infinitude with both Power Duration and Power Efficiency, would also free up energy to use other Valkyr powers without the specter of reducing the time you have Hysteria'ing over its heads) Possible change might be you can end it early for an energy refund based on the % of time left if your worried about engaging more enemies with only a couple seconds left.