Is there Counter-Play to Shock Eximus?

[sekushiiandee]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

No, it doesn't.  This comment negates all further discourse I was going to have with you.

Diversity NEVER hurts a game.  You can balance melee and gunplay to have both be viable, which they've(DE) done remarkably well up to this point.  

^ sorry have to agree with this statement

the very basis of having multiple frames and weapons was to create gameplay diversity....

i would also like to note that it is true that it is possible to balance both melee and gunplay.....but from what a lot of the arguments here talk about is more than just that.....enemy balance restricts more than just melee combat....in conflicts with survivability of a lot of frames and viability of frames in different scenarios

Edited March 8, 2016 by sekushiiandee

[J1ffyLub3]

Just now, sekushiiandee said:

^ maybe they shouldve have made valkyr so melee focused for her abilities.....or saryn.....

Valkyr isn't going to be viable across all content, i'm sorry. Other frames face similar issues. The game isn't designed around being able to use one thing. Some frames/strategies/weapons are simply bad in some content...and there is nothing wrong with that.

[45neo]

On 3/6/2016 at 5:22 PM, SYL3NZR said:

the problem isnt just losing energy, you lose all shields, all energy, get scrambled vision

BUT most importantly you cant get energy for several seconds, thats equal to an instant death for any squishy frame, and any frame 60 mins in

easy play valkyr hysteria. If your not scrubish then just tough it up.

[sekushiiandee]

12 minutes ago, J1ffyLub3 said:

Valkyr isn't going to be viable across all content, i'm sorry. Other frames face similar issues. The game isn't designed around being able to use one thing. Some frames/strategies/weapons are simply bad in some content...and there is nothing wrong with that.

^ just an example. there are plenty of other examples in this entire thread but thanks for picking one small thing

its obvious that not all frames are viable for all content..........situational missions are different than enemies that go across all mission types

your argument does not work very well because now we have an enemy that can destroy frames that excel in missions that others do not

please keep in mind that shock eximi can be in any type of mission......not the same as warframe strengths and weaknesses in specific mission types

Edited March 8, 2016 by sekushiiandee
corrected to reflect all mission types

[J1ffyLub3]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

No, it doesn't.  This comment negates all further discourse I was going to have with you.

Diversity NEVER hurts a game.  You can balance melee and gunplay to have both be viable, which they've(DE) done remarkably well up to this point.  

You are being so ignorant. If DE wants melee only to work they need to reconsider tileset design and what enemies they can introduce are extremely limited. Melee has just happened to work up until recently. Now that the game is becoming bigger its simply becoming apparent that melee only isn't DE's goal

[Inmemoratus]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

No, it doesn't.  This comment negates all further discourse I was going to have with you.

Diversity NEVER hurts a game.  You can balance melee and gunplay to have both be viable, which they've(DE) done remarkably well up to this point.  

Wow you've just declared that you're done with 2 people over the course of a single page of a thread. Maybe you should just leave. You obviously can't handle discussions.

[J1ffyLub3]

1 minute ago, sekushiiandee said:

^ just an example. there are plenty of other examples in this entire thread but thanks for picking one small thing

its obvious that not all frames are viable for all content..........situational missions are different than enemies that go across all missions

your argument does not work very well because now we have an enemy that can destroy frames that excel in missions that others do not

please keep in mind that shock eximi can be in any type of mission......not the same as warframe strengths and weaknesses in specific mission types

Shock eximus' aren't found across all missions, nice try though. You won't find them in grineer or infested missions. You are only punished by them if you decide to play solo without any guns equipped...which is entirely your choice. Simply because you want to do something doesn't mean the game has to support that desire. The only place where you are forced to encounter eximus' without guns are sortie's..and as ive said before you can simply skip those days if it bothers you that much

[sekushiiandee]

Just now, J1ffyLub3 said:

You are being so ignorant. If DE wants melee only to work they need to reconsider tileset design and what enemies they can introduce are extremely limited. Melee has just happened to work up until recently. Now that the game is becoming bigger its simply becoming apparent that melee only isn't DE's goal

^but that should have been obvious already as with the enemies and units that come about....not to mention the progression of the game itself

it is rare to find a frame that can truly utilize melee without putting itself in harms way......ranged weapons are what keep you alive and away from danger

with the exception of saryn, inaros, and valkyr (and maybe some others).....not many others can truly utilize melee at a scale-able level

but i do feel the grief that melee only players have....and you cant and should not put them down because they like to play in a specific way....thats a bit unfair and unreasonable

[sekushiiandee]

5 minutes ago, J1ffyLub3 said:

Shock eximus' aren't found across all missions, nice try though. You won't find them in grineer or infested missions. You are only punished by them if you decide to play solo without any guns equipped...which is entirely your choice. Simply because you want to do something doesn't mean the game has to support that desire. The only place where you are forced to encounter eximus' without guns are sortie's..and as ive said before you can simply skip those days if it bothers you that much

^ i meant all mission types...i did not mean to say all missions

Edited March 8, 2016 by sekushiiandee

[J1ffyLub3]

Just now, sekushiiandee said:

but i do feel the grief that melee only players have....and you cant and should not put them down because they like to play in a specific way....thats a bit unfair and unreasonable

it's not unreasonable when this isn't a melee only game. Melee-only people are simply pushing their expectations onto DE. It gets to the point where melee-only people think Warframe is a game that it truly isn't.

[(PSN)horridhal]

6 minutes ago, J1ffyLub3 said:

You are being so ignorant. If DE wants melee only to work they need to reconsider tileset design and what enemies they can introduce are extremely limited. Melee has just happened to work up until recently. Now that the game is becoming bigger its simply becoming apparent that melee only isn't DE's goal

No, I'm not ignorant.  I'm not the one actively campaigning that 33% of weaponry options should no longer be viable against Corpus and Corrupted enemies and saying that the people who disagree with my stance need to "git gud."  That'd be you and the other people in this thread saying the mechanic should remain as is.

Melee only already works in every tile set we have.  You are a Ninja with massive movement capabilities, your inability to melee your target stems from your inability to maneuver your frame properly, nothing more.  Allowing for melee also would not limit enemy diversity.

Except the game hasn't really gotten "bigger."  They've added different mission types, etc, but aside from things like Archwing, the base game hasn't changed.  You still have a Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapon along with Frame abilities.  Please enlighten everyone what, exactly, has changed the game so much that, in your opinion, melee should no longer be viable?

 

You are also ignoring the blatantly obvious.  This is a Shock Eximus, not a Magnetic one, and the proc is wrong solely from that standpoint.  Then you add into that every other Eximus, aside from Venomous, has to actually hit you in order to affect you.  This singular unit being different makes no sense.

Edited March 8, 2016 by (PS4)horridhal

[Flirk2]

1 minute ago, Inmemoratus said:

If you're ok with playing a melee centric frame to make pure melee viable, play Inaros. Then it literally does not matter if you get hit by a shock aura.

But if you want to be able to bring ANY frame to that melee only corpus sortie? Sorry, your choice of frame and weapon matter.

When I saw the eximus aura in action I made a joke that Inaros never came to save Baro's mother because he ran into a shock eximus nullifier. Did you really just suggest Inaros, who's survivability depends on power use, as a suitable frame to counter a power scrambler? Really?

1 minute ago, J1ffyLub3 said:

1) I never said Frost couldn't do other mission types, I simply said he is stronger than most for defensive ones and doesn't shine as much as frames in everything else

2) It was an example. Do you want other ones? I can think of plenty

3) You can avoid sorties, and all other content where melee-only kills you. The game isn't designed around melee-only, its designed around using both gunplay and swordplay

You did it again. He shines. In any mission. MD, D, Hijack (with those shields and the ability to freeze the opposition), Interception, Even spying - put a snow globe and hack safely.

Your choice of examples is too telling as it is.

Oh. So we are at that stage now. I already avoid them. But really. Did you see the achievement "Sword Alone"? Problem is there is nothing but Naramon's shadow step that give you a melee-only option with those things. Nothing. No frame, no build. And even with guns. You see nullifier. How do people that defended those suggested to deal with them? Get in the bubble and shoot him in the face or melee him. And that's an awesome tactic. That you employ only to realize at the last second that the nullifier is actuallly of a shock eximus type.

[Inmemoratus]

3 minutes ago, sekushiiandee said:

^but that should have been obvious already as with the enemies and units that come about....not to mention the progression of the game itself

it is rare to find a frame that can truly utilize melee without putting itself in harms way......ranged weapons are what keep you alive and away from danger

with the exception of saryn, inaros, and valkyr (and maybe some others).....not many others can truly utilize melee at a scale-able level

but i do feel the grief that melee only players have....and you cant and should not put them down because they like to play in a specific way....thats a bit unfair and unreasonable

It's not putting them down. It's just explaining the reality that this game is designed such that you need guns unless you want to make it really hard for yourself.

"Melee players" shouldn't be a classification we use to describe people because this isn't a melee game. This is a game that requires you to use a variety of tools in order too be successful.

[IceColdHawk]

People still defending the shock eximus? Damn, seems like manipulation is playing a role in here. Or people didn't encounter enough shock eximi.

Shock eximus render primed flow and quick thinking useless. So, bye bye caster frames. That's one thing.

Another thing is, we already got an energy leech eximus. He's pretty balanced though. Shock eximus is exactly the same, only in overpowered version. Also, Shock Eximus, not magnetic eximus.

This thing, must get abandoned!

[J1ffyLub3]

Just now, (PS4)horridhal said:

No, I'm not ignorant.  I'm not the one actively campaigning that 33% of weaponry options should no longer be viable against Corpus and Corrupted enemies and saying that the people who disagree with my stance need to "git gud."  That's be you and the other people in this thread saying the mechanic should remain as is.

Melee only already works in every tile set we have.  You are a Ninja with massive movement capabilities, your inability to melee your target stems from your inability to maneuver your frame properly, nothing more.  Allowing for melee also would not limit enemy diversity.

Except the game hasn't really gotten "bigger."  They've added different mission types, etc, but aside from things like Archwing, the base game hasn't changed.  You still have a Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapon along with Frame abilities.  Please enlighten everyone what, exactly, has changed the game so much that, in your opinion, melee should no longer be viable?

 

You are also ignoring the blatantly obvious.  This is a Shock Eximus, not a Magnetic one, and the proc is wrong solely from that standpoint.  Then you add into that every other Eximus, aside from Venomous, has to actually hit you in order to affect you.  This singular unit being different makes no sense.

Ah, so you aren't done discoursing? good to hear.

When I talk about new content, I am giving room for the future as well. While it may seem small, parkour 2.0 and loss of stamina affect general movement to where coptering isn't relevant and you can now get to all parts of a tileset. Shock eximus being reintroduced is a very clear example of restriction of enemy design.

[ScorpDK]

"Sword Alone" - Melee 2.0 - DE presented that concept and told us it was now possible to run a mission without any ranged weapon. But that's not the point, really.

Shock Eximus units, as mentioned above, are both mislabeled (they're not shocking you, they're using a magnetic proc, not an electric one), and have an aura that needs a rework.

The easiest solution I see is making it an effect similar to the Arson Eximus, where they create a slowly expanding field that saps your energy when the ring touches you, and can be avoid by rolling/sliding behind cover. In fact, the same could be said about the other AoE effects that Eximus units use, such as the Venomous one. Do not simply have it proc for being near, have them actually WORK towards their ability doing their effect. Venomous Gas expands slowly, you see it coming, run out of it before you get affected. THAT promotes skillful movement in and out, and makes the enemy still perform their intended role.

My Opinion.

[J1ffyLub3]

4 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

When I saw the eximus aura in action I made a joke that Inaros never came to save Baro's mother because he ran into a shock eximus nullifier. Did you really just suggest Inaros, who's survivability depends on power use, as a suitable frame to counter a power scrambler? Really?

You did it again. He shines. In any mission. MD, D, Hijack (with those shields and the ability to freeze the opposition), Interception, Even spying - put a snow globe and hack safely.

Your choice of examples is too telling as it is.

Oh. So we are at that stage now. I already avoid them. But really. Did you see the achievement "Sword Alone"? Problem is there is nothing but Naramon's shadow step that give you a melee-only option with those things. Nothing. No frame, no build. And even with guns. You see nullifier. How do people that defended those suggested to deal with them? Get in the bubble and shoot him in the face or melee him. And that's an awesome tactic. That you employ only to realize at the last second that the nullifier is actuallly of a shock eximus type.

I never said Frost doesn't shine. I said he doesn't shine as bright as others and that is expected

[sekushiiandee]

3 minutes ago, J1ffyLub3 said:

it's not unreasonable when this isn't a melee only game. Melee-only people are simply pushing their expectations onto DE. It gets to the point where melee-only people think Warframe is a game that it truly isn't.

^complaining about imbalance and asking for a reasonable solution is not necessarily pushing expectations.  there is a viable amount of the community that likes to use melee-only.....if DE did not have the intention to make game play varied...they would not have reworked melee as well as introduce stances and create even more melee weapons

your argument could be reversed as well you know....in favor of melee vs guns only....DE and no one else has said that the game is guns only......what of people who only use their warframes only and never really use weapons? (i.e. valkyr, excal)....this argument does not hold viable across the board.....and in most cases i do see melee only individuals with guns

why fight against someone's reason to have fun in the game?

i understand your view of trying to have balance within the game...but that does not necessarily mean there shouldnt be options....melee-only is a totally viable option at this point in the game...and has been constantly push over and over again.....way before you even started playing and i have watched it grow....hell i remember one of the people who fought against melee only....but now thats not the case anymore because theres actually decent melee weapons, stances, and frames to match them

[(PSN)horridhal]

Just now, J1ffyLub3 said:

Ah, so you aren't done discoursing? good to hear.

When I talk about new content, I am giving room for the future as well. While it may seem small, parkour 2.0 and loss of stamina affect general movement to where coptering isn't relevant and you can now get to all parts of a tileset. Shock eximus being reintroduced is a very clear example of restriction of enemy design.

Oh, amazing.  I'm shocked by your response.  /s

So, basically, when you say the game has evolved, you mean it will evolve in the future.  You really need to make up your mind so you stop contradicting yourself so much.

Coptering is not the mechanic being discussed at the moment and it still exists, to a point.

Again :

7 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Except the game hasn't really gotten "bigger."  They've added different mission types, etc, but aside from things like Archwing, the base game hasn't changed.  You still have a Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapon along with Frame abilities.  Please enlighten everyone what, exactly, has changed the game so much that, in your opinion, melee should no longer be viable?

You are also ignoring the blatantly obvious.  This is a Shock Eximus, not a Magnetic one, and the proc is wrong solely from that standpoint.  Then you add into that every other Eximus, aside from Venomous, has to actually hit you in order to affect you.  This singular unit being different makes no sense.

Quoted and Bolded for emphasis. 

[Inmemoratus]

5 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Oh. So we are at that stage now. I already avoid them. But really. Did you see the achievement "Sword Alone"? Problem is there is nothing but Naramon's shadow step that give you a melee-only option with those things. Nothing. No frame, no build. And even with guns. You see nullifier. How do people that defended those suggested to deal with them? Get in the bubble and shoot him in the face or melee him. And that's an awesome tactic. That you employ only to realize at the last second that the nullifier is actuallly of a shock eximus type.

Acheivos are just arbitrary "challenges" that probably didn't have much thought put into them. The developer is pressured to add them. I mean they're actually required by sony/MS on console releases, did you know that?

Anyway, I usually just shoot down nullifier bubbles from range because they are usually accompanied by a bunch of enemies so diving in there is risky.

[J1ffyLub3]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Except the game hasn't really gotten "bigger."  They've added different mission types, etc, but aside from things like Archwing, the base game hasn't changed.  You still have a Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapon along with Frame abilities.  Please enlighten everyone what, exactly, has changed the game so much that, in your opinion, melee should no longer be viable?

You are also ignoring the blatantly obvious.  This is a Shock Eximus, not a Magnetic one, and the proc is wrong solely from that standpoint.  Then you add into that every other Eximus, aside from Venomous, has to actually hit you in order to affect you.  This singular unit being different makes no sense.

I could care less about the semantics of the unit. You want a shock eximus? fine, change the unit back to what it was. But then we came across this same issue if we want to implement a magnetic eximus. The name of the enemy doesn't have any relationship to the actual problem. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by J1ffyLub3

[(PSN)horridhal]

Just now, J1ffyLub3 said:

I could care less about the semantics of the unit. You want a shock eximus? fine, change the unit back to what it was. But then we came across this same issue if we want to implement a magnetic eximus. The name of the enemy doesn't have any relationship to the actual problem. 

And, once again, you avoided the rest.  Let's try again :

11 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

Except the game hasn't really gotten "bigger."  They've added different mission types, etc, but aside from things like Archwing, the base game hasn't changed.  You still have a Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapon along with Frame abilities.  Please enlighten everyone what, exactly, has changed the game so much that, in your opinion, melee should no longer be viable?

Bolded for emphasis, again.

[Inmemoratus]

6 minutes ago, ScorpDK said:

"Sword Alone" - Melee 2.0 - DE presented that concept and told us it was now possible to run a mission without any ranged weapon. But that's not the point, really.

Shock Eximus units, as mentioned above, are both mislabeled (they're not shocking you, they're using a magnetic proc, not an electric one), and have an aura that needs a rework.

The easiest solution I see is making it an effect similar to the Arson Eximus, where they create a slowly expanding field that saps your energy when the ring touches you, and can be avoid by rolling/sliding behind cover. In fact, the same could be said about the other AoE effects that Eximus units use, such as the Venomous one. Do not simply have it proc for being near, have them actually WORK towards their ability doing their effect. Venomous Gas expands slowly, you see it coming, run out of it before you get affected. THAT promotes skillful movement in and out, and makes the enemy still perform their intended role.

My Opinion.

Ugh I'd rather keep the small aura. Another huge AoE in a horde of corpus would be ridiculous. I want to be able to see the aura though.

[Inmemoratus]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)horridhal said:

And, once again, you avoided the rest.  Let's try again :

Bolded for emphasis, again.

Well a few people talked about why it's unreasonable to think you can just do anything with your gun slots empty on any warframe you want... But now you're intentionally ignoring people for some reason.

[(PSN)horridhal]

Just now, Inmemoratus said:

Well a few people talked about why it's unreasonable to think you can just do anything with your gun slots empty on any warframe you want... But now you're intentionally ignoring people for some reason.

Just you, and the reason is plain.  As for your comment, nobody said anything about not using guns at all.  I asked why he thinks melee should no longer be a viable option in all settings alongside guns being a viable option in all settings.

I'm still waiting on that answer I know I'll never get.