Why do space cats hit me like space trucks?

[dreamquest]

I'm usually against all nerfing - It messes up the game and everything becomes useless over time. But I do admit that they are a bit OP.

One blow from these kitties - even with fully overpower shields  - can take you down pretty fast. One hit and you are fking dead. They may need to be re-balanced this a bit - for the sake of newbies and low ranked players. 

Personally I don't care that much as I like the challenge and been playing long enough to have all the bling bling in the game etc. . But with that said - it must suck to be a low ranked player seeing these cute kitties and wanting to cuddle with them, only to realize that the cute kitty killZ! :-)

Edited March 9, 2016 by dreamquest

[Specific.Zod]

28 minutes ago, dreamquest said:

I'm usually against all nerfing - It messes up the game and everything becomes useless over time. But I do admit that they are a bit OP.

One blow from these kitties - even with fully overpower shields  - can take you down pretty fast. One hit and you are fking dead. They may need to be re-balanced this a bit - for the sake of newbies and low ranked players. 

Personally I don't care that much as I like the challenge and been playing long enough to have all the bling bling in the game etc. . But with that said - it must suck to be a low ranked player seeing these cute kitties and wanting to cuddle with them, only to realize that the cute kitty killZ! :-)

Personal favourite pet for Valkyr!!

[AsianLyf]

The problem is that they are fire resistant, and it takes alot more to kill them with ember prime :/, I get that the Catlady can wear fireproof stuff, but the cats shouldn't have fire proof fur

[chuckdm]

6 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Fun fact: 

Hotfix 18.5.2

Changes 

• Kavats have had their melee damage output halved. They will also no longer attack Defense targets or Excavators. 

Yes, kavats hit like trucks. But they're melee units after all. Infested Charger on lvl 40 also deal good amounts of damage already. 

But what i don't really get...

Better question: Why are drahks so weak?

Also, how do you manage to lose against kavats as Nova, Nyx or Ivara? C'mon. Nova can slow them down and turn them to helpless little kitties. Nyx got absorb and chaos. Ivara is an archer, not a melee user. Also, she can turn them into sleep. Not you should fall asleep, the kavats should! You're a space ninja, use your agility!

Once again, melee units should deal more damage than ranged units. Ever got hit by a power fist? That hurts.

And yeah, I agree about the powerfist.  But the difference is I don't get clusterf**ked by 3 of them at a time.  They are also actually EASIER to avoid.  I have no problem with how hard they hit because that damage is realistically avoidable.  They're also much, much easier to kill than Kavats. Less health, 0 armor, and they HOLD STILL while I shoot them, mostly.

EDIT: And...I'm rewriting the rest of this reply because you said 18.5.2 and I read 18.5.5.2 and thought this had actually been fixed.  If this 50% damage decrease has been in effect since Saturday, then it isn't enough, because they've been kicking my butt Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and again today.

Hell, I have no problem with Powerfists being harder than they are now, and no problem with Kavats being harder than them.  I have no problem with Drahks getting some sort of buff, as long as it's reasonable and not like 6x the damage like the Kavats have.  Doubling Drahk damage to 100 or so while dropping Kavats to 150, while the Kavats are faster but have less armor than Drahks.  Those changes would be fine.  Basically, Kavats would be the offensive counterpart to Drahk's defensive nature.  As it stands right now, Kavats are just straight up murder kitties while Drahks are a mild annoyance at the worst of times.

My argument isn't to nerf the whole damn game.  Enemies on whole need a SLIGHT buff.  In fact, they need less armor and health above Lv80 or so, but they need more damage starting around Lv40 or so.  But even so, Kavat damage is just so far out of the norm that it makes no sense.

And let me close with this: If the Grineer Manic hits me with 6 swipes and I am still alive, and a Kavat hits me twice and I am dead, how on earth could that be balanced?  That's the point.  When your cannon fodder cats are doing 3x the damage of what is basically a mini-boss, something is broken.

Edited March 9, 2016 by chuckdm
Had to rewrite my whole reply...

[chuckdm]

I kinda hate to necro my own thread here, but 3 more updates later, Hyekkas are still totally kicking my &#!, and I'm still not alright with it.  So yeah, imma necro this thing.

DE, please.  Any time now, guys.

[DirtyBerd]

Don't nerf the kavats, just get gud and you can just shoot them and be done with it. We're gonna get a chance to have them as pets and the last thing i want is a nerfed kavat. everybody always wants to nerf everything. just leave them alone, they're fine the way they are.

Edited March 19, 2016 by DirtyBerd
i kant spel

[chuckdm]

17 minutes ago, DirtyBerd said:

Don't nerf the kavats, just get gud and you can just shoot them and be done with it. We're gonna get a chance to have them as pets and the last thing i want is a nerfed kavat. everybody always wants to nerf everything. just leave them alone, they're fine the way they are.

I'm guessing you didn't read my initial post?

I am not a "nerf everything" person.  I enjoy Bursas.  I have no problems with Nullifiers nor Manics.  I am a staunch defender of the changes to Saryn/Miasma and am actually glad about the Greedy Pull nerf.

This is not that.  Hyekkas are doing three times the damage of the Manic, and are spawned in groups of 2-4.  They can 2 shot kill any frame under 300 armor.  They are so OP they are broken.

And since when does the damage of enemies have anything to do with the damage that Tenno deal?  Have you ever been mauled by a Drahk?  It's like 40 damage, even to shields where there's 0 armor reduction.  Meanwhile my Kubrow is doing 900 slash damage (and even 300 before any mods).  CLEARLY the two have NO connection AT ALL

Hell, even the Deth Machine Rifle on the G3's sentinels does like a fifth of the damage of even an unmodded DMR on a Tenno Dethcube.

[Brosephelon]

A day or three ago when Sortie3 was an interception mission the Kavats there were 1shotting people even with a full stack of trinity overshields.  

Since then I've noticed Kavats do insane damage here and their.  I notice a few people get 1shot on later waves of Draco when grabbing loot with Kavats nearby.  

I think it has more to do with their damage scaling as right now they all show up as lv1 on my screen regardless of all the other levels around so I'm assuming they are taking stats from their summoner which is hyper inflating there damage at higher levels.  I didn't notice insane Kavat damage during the Inaros quests or in lower level missions which I haven't done much of.  

[DirtyBerd]

3 hours ago, chuckdm said:

and am actually glad about the Greedy Pull nerf.

See? Nerf nazis just can't leave things alone.  So so many people in this game have no issue with the kavats, Maybe you just need to better your game and not blame lack of skill on kavats. Dunno, I don't have a problem with them.

[BlackCoMerc]

Late game is poorly designed period. Far too much damage coming at us at once. Not to mention knockdown spam.

Later game enemies are all cheap, unfun, poorly designed units built on the (bad) assumption we will always bring hard CC in order to just ignore the game anyway.

Warframe is in desperate need of an overhaul. The Kavats are just the latest symptom of an ongoing, fun killing issue.

[DirtyBerd]

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Late game is poorly designed period. Far too much damage coming at us at once. Not to mention knockdown spam.

Later game enemies are all cheap, unfun, poorly designed units built on the (bad) assumption we will always bring hard CC in order to just ignore the game anyway.

Warframe is in desperate need of an overhaul. The Kavats are just the latest symptom of an ongoing, fun killing issue.

They might just add this to the game soon, baro might have this for sale next round, you should pick it up.

[BlackCoMerc]

Very constructive Dirty.

Can you let the adults talk now, please? Some of us have actual, real concerns to voice. It should be nice enough you can go play outside while we do so...

[firelordzx5]

Everytime I see a Heykka Master.

 

I dread about her cats, stupid crazy cat lady. :(

[-Temp0-]

On 09.03.2016 at 8:04 AM, chuckdm said:

I did several searches trying to see if anyone else has noted how insanely powerful the Kavats and their Grineer-bread cousins are, and I am a little surprised nobody has apparently made a topic about this.

So...why do Kavats hit like a truck?  I'm not kidding.  If I play Valkyr, Cold Chroma, or Atlas, fine, whatever.  But I do enjoy (and even prefer) playing frames that aren't super-tanky, and now, any mission where there are Kavats makes that basically suicide.  

Cause someone was whining about having it "too easy for too long".

Also, if you're not careful, kavats can kill a frame even with ~1000 shields so it's not only fragile frames problem. Those b*tards once fell down in the elevator on Draco, killed frost and Inaros (1000 shields on frost and 2000 health on Inaros) in like 2 seconds. Good times, good times.

[Novolunos]

I love this because even though the cats were "declawed" they still kill you way faster than kubrows. However I haven't adjusted for the fact that Kubrows are like lv.4 & Kavats are lv. 20+ when they appear in the wild. But I know Hyeka Masters are extremely dangerous whenever because even when they're allies the fire they shoot is friendly fire & very annoying if you're not careful. Sometimes it's the only way I can kill them fast enough is if they accidentally kill themselves with their fire.

But to be honest I wish I could test out if Kavats are really as dangerous as we think they are or it's just the higher lv. Maybe a wild Kavat vs. Kubrow thing or whatnot. Or even Hyeka Master vs. Drahk Master thing. I don't know could be interesting.

[chuckdm]

On 3/21/2016 at 9:22 PM, Espelonia said:

I love this because even though the cats were "declawed" they still kill you way faster than kubrows. However I haven't adjusted for the fact that Kubrows are like lv.4 & Kavats are lv. 20+ when they appear in the wild. But I know Hyeka Masters are extremely dangerous whenever because even when they're allies the fire they shoot is friendly fire & very annoying if you're not careful. Sometimes it's the only way I can kill them fast enough is if they accidentally kill themselves with their fire.

But to be honest I wish I could test out if Kavats are really as dangerous as we think they are or it's just the higher lv. Maybe a wild Kavat vs. Kubrow thing or whatnot. Or even Hyeka Master vs. Drahk Master thing. I don't know could be interesting.

SPOILERS:  Well for what it's worth, when doing the first stage of the Inaros quest when about 20 wild Kavats spawn at once, while using my Ember Prime (because the mission said "Infested", heh) those hit like a truck, too.  Burnt all 4 revives and was down to about 25 health when I finally killed the last one.  It wasn't pretty.

Back to the point: Manic takes 6 swipes to kill me.  Kavats/Hyekkas take 2.  This is clearly not balanced.  Cannon fodder enemies should not be THREE TIMES AS POWERFUL as a mini-boss.  And that's before you take into account that the Hyekkas spawn in packs of 2-4.

Sorry, I know I'm sounding like a broken record here, but today I read the patch notes, now for the 8th time.  Still not nerfed, still need to be.

[enJohneering]

Honestly, I think this is just DE's answer to the lack of nullifier troll bubbles and extreme toxin AOE that Corpus and Infested have in swarms at very high levels. They wanted to make Draco tougher to discourage farming would be my guess, so they let this new cat mob really kick a$$. I think the cat ladies being tankier than heavy gunners while doing insane fire aoe and summoning cats that are faster, tougher, and higher damage than the dog-like counterparts is major overkill, but I don't think it's likely to get toned down anytime soon. I mean, have you tried a high level corpus lately? Get a few bursas together and it's game over if you don't have some skill. I think a reduction in the aoe fire damage OR the health of the cat lady is in order, but I won't complain too much. 

[Kletse]

I agree they're stronger then other enemies and seem a bit off balance, but it's like  this: When they spawn, don't let them come near and don't let them hit you. That's all. You don't have roll, (bullet) jump and airglide for nothing.

[chuckdm]

1 hour ago, Kletse said:

I agree they're stronger then other enemies and seem a bit off balance, but it's like  this: When they spawn, don't let them come near and don't let them hit you. That's all. You don't have roll, (bullet) jump and airglide for nothing.

Roll doesn't avoid them.  I have tried this over 100 times now.  Once they charge at you, rolling doesn't do anything, they still hit you, and just as hard.  And unlike the Drahks that take several seconds to "wind up" before they charge, the Hyekkas go from facing the other direction to charging at you in about 1.5s at most.  Once they turn around and even get LINED UP to charge at you, it's usually too late.  They also don't wait nearly as long between attacks as the Drahks, Flameblades, etc.  They hit about as often as Scorpions but are much harder to avoid.

Bullet Jump and Aimglide both take you away from the Interception Point, Defense Objective, etc., which eventually causes mission failure.  Doesn't do much good to survive the OP space cats if you still lose the match.

The only solution I've found is to stand on top of very high objects.  This generally works for Defense but there isn't always an object which is both low enough to still count for capturing the tower in Interception, yet high enough that Hyekkas can't climb on it.

The fact that this solution only works occasionally means it isn't really a solution in the first place, of course.

1 hour ago, JoeLorodeath said:

Honestly, I think this is just DE's answer to the lack of nullifier troll bubbles and extreme toxin AOE that Corpus and Infested have in swarms at very high levels. They wanted to make Draco tougher to discourage farming would be my guess, so they let this new cat mob really kick a$$. I think the cat ladies being tankier than heavy gunners while doing insane fire aoe and summoning cats that are faster, tougher, and higher damage than the dog-like counterparts is major overkill, but I don't think it's likely to get toned down anytime soon. I mean, have you tried a high level corpus lately? Get a few bursas together and it's game over if you don't have some skill. I think a reduction in the aoe fire damage OR the health of the cat lady is in order, but I won't complain too much. 

I would rather be fighting 2 Bursa's for every 1 Hyekka right now.  I do not use Heavy Calibur and my aim is good.  I can gun down a Lv60 Bursa with my Soma Prime in under 2 seconds just by hitting the tiny sweet spot from the front.  But I cannot dodge Hyekkas to save myself.  Literally.

It doesn't help that Hyekkas also do even more damage than the super-heavy AoE nuke from the most powerful Bursa.  And yeah, they do.  I know because most of my frames can tank more than 2 of those AoEs and (barely) survive, while 2 Hyekka hits = dead.

Considering the sheer hate that people have for Nullifiers (I am the exception, not the rule - most people do loathe them) I would sincerely hope that DE didn't design an enemy with the specific intent of it being something people would hate as much as them, but for the Grineer.

And Grineer already deal about three times as many Slash procs at high levels as the other factions.  That's your equivalent to Infested Toxin procs, right there.

[Geuax]

you have space allergies 

[Kletse]

On 23-3-2016 at 9:01 AM, chuckdm said:

Roll doesn't avoid them.  I have tried this over 100 times now.  Once they charge at you, rolling doesn't do anything, they still hit you, and just as hard.  And unlike the Drahks that take several seconds to "wind up" before they charge, the Hyekkas go from facing the other direction to charging at you in about 1.5s at most.  Once they turn around and even get LINED UP to charge at you, it's usually too late.  They also don't wait nearly as long between attacks as the Drahks, Flameblades, etc.  They hit about as often as Scorpions but are much harder to avoid.

Bullet Jump and Aimglide both take you away from the Interception Point, Defense Objective, etc., which eventually causes mission failure.  Doesn't do much good to survive the OP space cats if you still lose the match.

 

Again i won't say they are perfectly balanced. I won't say there's something wrong with playstyles etc.

But when i'm surrounded they almost never hit me when i roll. when you bulletjump straight up and hang in air, you have a lot of time to shoot them and when you almost drop to the ground you can slam them for a stagger. Lots of possibilities to counter them.

Also, when enemies are at the interception point, they will take it no matter if you're there or not. so it's legal to flee for a moment and analyze the situation. Kavats don't attack defence objects like you can read in hotfix 18.5.2.

I know that won't fix how hard they attack, but i like a good challenge.. And this can be one.