Saryn needs to be unnerfed

[ThatOddDeer]

3 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Saryns power and synergy with weapons.

I feel like this needs to be said again but with a lanka added. If you've done any testing against an armored enemy in the simulacrum you'd know you're better off running a corrosive lanka because for the time spent you'll kill more heavies with headshots than you'd kill trashmobs with gas lanka +spore

[RealPandemonium]

5 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Saryns power and synergy with weapons.

It's a bit of a hollow example for me since Lanka is a somewhat situational outlier in terms of weapon power right now.  Weapons are very strong right now and overpowered on the top end.  I don't think we should use synergy with weapons as an example since weapons are due for a re-balancing before long.  

[Misgenesis]

Just now, ThatOddDeer said:

 

I feel like this needs to be said again but with a lanka added. If you've done any testing against an armored enemy in the simulacrum you'd know you're better off running a corrosive lanka because for the time spent you'll kill more heavies with headshots than you'd kill trashmobs with gas lanka +spore

Right? Sure youll kill a few targets faster but a few seconds more with Gas damage and you kill hordes of even heavies.

Its demonstrated right before your eyes, i really dont know what else to say if you fail to see it. Any weapon with good damage and status works.

[RealPandemonium]

9 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I feel like this needs to be said again but with a lanka added. If you've done any testing against an armored enemy in the simulacrum you'd know you're better off running a corrosive lanka because for the time spent you'll kill more heavies with headshots than you'd kill trashmobs with gas lanka +spore

That depends on how much armor the enemy has.  If it's a level 100 CHG, it's no surprise that you aren't gonna get very far without stripping off most of its armor with procs or other means.  The Lanka is one of the few guns that works for the Gas+Spores combo at that level because its damage is excessive.

Edited March 21, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Misgenesis said:

Right? Sure youll kill a few targets faster but a few seconds more with Gas damage and you kill hordes of even heavies.

Its demonstrated right before your eyes, i really dont know what else to say if you fail to see it. Any weapon with good damage and status works.

The trash mobs aren't what get you though. The longer you go into endgame, the more the priority shifts to target assassination. A level 135 heavy gunner kills you 10x faster than an elite lancer which is why taking out the heavy gunner is more important. If taking out trash mobs were a priority in endgame ember would be the meta but that's not the case. Your example limits which weapons are usable on saryn because otherwise she fails to achieve what makes her "good"

A frame's kit should be equally effective no matter what weapons you bring to the mission, I can think of no examples other than Artemis bow that punishes bringing something other than nothing, whereas saryn becomes a much weaker frame without specifically crafted weapons. That's not synergy, that's co-dependency.

[djdnqn]

esto era saryn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp9kFHDGKEc

[ThatOddDeer]

4 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

That depends on how much armor the enemy has.  If it's a level 100 CHG, it's no surprise that you aren't gonna get very far without stripping off most of its armor with procs or other means.  The Lanka is one of the few guns that works for the Gas+Spores combo at that level because its damage is excessive.

But you're better off taking corrosive anyways. Killing that heavy in 1 shot then taking out another with a second shot is always more time efficient and ammo efficient, if ammo efficiency were even a problem for the lanka, and thus makes it a safer and more reliable alternative and this becomes more and more true as missions go on.

My full melee saryn, which only works because of shadowstep anyways because she isn't durable enough to survive melee otherwise, is great for shredding through heavies because toxic lash and spore are great offensively and can be made greater with any 15% crit melee with a good stance. But I have to use bandaids to fix problems in her kit and that shouldn't be the case.  

If we take a look at excalibur valkyr and wukong, their fourth ability is always the same effectiveness regardless of your weapon, it's the mods that count, which promotes variety in which weapons those frames take on missions. Saryn is the opposite of that, where people must take the same weapons on every mission to make the frame usable.

[ThatOddDeer]

5 minutes ago, djdnqn said:

esto era saryn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp9kFHDGKEc

killing low level infested light units, the most disposable and useless units in the game, is not how you show a frame is good. it's how you show a frame is at least hydroid tier

[Misgenesis]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

The trash mobs aren't what get you though. The longer you go into endgame, the more the priority shifts to target assassination. A level 135 heavy gunner kills you 10x faster than an elite lancer which is why taking out the heavy gunner is more important. If taking out trash mobs were a priority in endgame ember would be the meta but that's not the case. Your example limits which weapons are usable on saryn because otherwise she fails to achieve what makes her "good"

A frame's kit should be equally effective no matter what weapons you bring to the mission, I can think of no examples other than Artemis bow that punishes bringing something other than nothing, whereas saryn becomes a much weaker frame without specifically crafted weapons. That's not synergy, that's co-dependency.

Youre talking really specialized and niche builds to go that high unless youre in a team, where a Saryn with Lanka would be ideal.

I feel like we're getting off topic anyhow, im just saying Saryn is more powerful than ever to refute OP. Maybe at a cost of weapon limitations but its not like you have much choice anyway if youre planning on sortie levels of content.

I also realize she needs more tweaking but with DE's fire and forget policy who knows when thatll happen.

[ThatOddDeer]

7 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Youre talking really specialized and niche builds to go that high unless youre in a team, where a Saryn with Lanka would be ideal.

I feel like we're getting off topic anyhow, im just saying Saryn is more powerful than ever to refute OP. Maybe at a cost of weapon limitations but its not like you have much choice anyway if youre planning on sortie levels of content.

I also realize she needs more tweaking but with DE's fire and forget policy who knows when thatll happen.

First of all I balance everything on solo play as that is what I primarily do, so corrosive is better than gas in all cases.

Second, back to the topic at hand, she is more powerful than before but for entirely different reasons. She fails to deliver her melee debuffer frame role while having 3 abilities than can't stand on their own.

On the subject of her rework, she has a CONFIRMED revisit to her rework, as per devstream 61, after, and I quote, "she has marinated a little more".

If you've seen the latest devstream the upcoming mag rework is an example of a kit with synergy but not codependency. All the abilities are fine on their own but they each made the others stronger.

Edited March 21, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[Misgenesis]

Shes marinated plenty, there are no kneejerk reactions anymore and its been several months since the rework.

Im waiting.

[prot0mega]

My only problem with saryn now is her molt doesn't aggro reliably. For too many times have I popped molt to cover my re-positioning in an endless mission only to get my arse shredded by enemies who should have aimed for the molt decoy. 

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, Misgenesis said:

Shes marinated plenty, there are no kneejerk reactions anymore and its been several months since the rework.

Im waiting.

Me too. 

I've already thought of plenty of things that could fix her problems.

 

spore is fine, I'd just make the transferal of toxin procs more regular, like combining them into 1 toxin procs rather than many small ones.

molt needs something akin to snowglobe, but instead of gaining hp, it stays a minimum of at least 2-4 seconds at 1 hp so that it stays alive long enough to draw aggro but then immediately bursts, triggering its offensive use.

Toxic lash could be molded into the old overheat, where it gives saryn a % damage reduction that either has a high base or scales to a cap with power strength, somewhere around 75-95% like mirage's 3. That way it could be useable without melee equipped but at reduced effectiveness, just like speed or warcry. Maybeeeee also let the power return on hit scale with power strength or make it a slightly higher number, like 4-5.

Miasma could either force corrosive proc on each tick, although it takes 26 corrosive procs to strip 100% armor. Or let it shred a stacking % of max armor every tick. If avalache not only freezes, causes killed enemies to explode into forced cold proc aoes AND shreds % max armor the "armor and flesh melting gas" should too.

[ograzzt]

On 19.03.2016 at 2:02 AM, Gurpgork said:

She's arguably even better than Ash in terms of damage output. I actually managed to outdamage an Ash in the first sortie today, and by a pretty significant margin.

  Hide contents

It was Interception, Cryotic Leak, Infested, and level 50-60. The guy with 23% was the Ash. 

Because of Ancient's auras Ash is probably the worst choice versus infested. So I don't really understand why you posted this.

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, ograzzt said:

Because of Ancient's auras Ash is probably the worst choice versus infested. So I don't really understand why you posted this.

and by that extension so is saryn, as spore's damage is power based and thus also negatively affected the aura ._.

people can be really clueless sometimes but that's why you gotta teach them

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

7 hours ago, DesuEx said:

You completely misread my post. The purpose of mentioning the Draco video is to ONLY prove that spore is good. I didn't say the video displayed how effective her other skills are. I also don't recall saying Miasma is fine by itself, in fact I believe it needs a buff due to the ridiculous requirement to make it effect, that being casting molt + spore beforehand. 

Did i? Got late yesterday. Reflected on evryone here. Again, the draco video shows nothing but spores raw damage. Poison proccs from a lets say crit centered dual ichor adds 1000s, if not 10.000 to the spore damage.

This combo seems to work for many people but what if i told you that it could be used to unleash the safed poison damage? Multiple 10.000s that scale up to 100.000s, unleashed evry time molt is destroyed, evry time you fire miasama, evry time you attack enemys with lash or shoot at them. A single instance of spores, paired with lash in whatever way you wanna spread it seems quite cheap to me. A ultimate to unleash such a mechanic also seems fitting, no matter what it does by itself wouldn't you say?

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

-snip-

 A ultimate to unleash such a mechanic also seems fitting, no matter what it does by itself wouldn't you say?

Sadly no, because miasma is supposed to be saryn's finisher, as intended by its mechanics, but spore does the burst damage and sustained damage AND utility way better than miasma could ever do in its current state.

[PikeOrShield]

11 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Sadly no, because miasma is supposed to be saryn's finisher, as intended by its mechanics, but spore does the burst damage and sustained damage AND utility way better than miasma could ever do in its current state.

I think he means you can use Miasma to pop spores on all the enemies in range (like the syndicate effects).  If you are doing your job and all the enemies have high damage spores on them, shuffling and multiplying all the spore procs in range can do a crazy amount of toxin damage.  You're right about Miasma being lackluster on it's own though.

Edited March 21, 2016 by PikeOrShield
You're*

[(PSN)Clockwork-Crow]

Things change, but I guess some people don't.

If you can't adapt, use another frame. The over entitlement is real, and threads like this do nothing but having everyone chasing their tails.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Crimson_Judgment said:

Brb (Leaves To make Youtube Channel and Video)

Will Edit Later

I Am on PS4 and Have no access to any Shadow Debt Mods. How Would Anyone Consider This a "Nerf" lol

Thx, and this is only a fragment of what she's able to as well. You're probably cheaper off setting molt on this range, the few 100 are also replaced by 1000s-10.000s using shadow debt. That's what she's all about now.

And may i add that i find it strange how this community evolved? Evryone was all up for ultimate abilitys that actually act as such for a long time now. Saryn got this kinda ultimate with this rework. One that's nothing special but becomes a beast after a setup, not only reflecting poison and viral as effect that obviously advertises spore use but also strongly scaling off poison in the process. It is the frickin ideal and people still complain as they use it to "press 4 to win"..

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Sadly no, because miasma is supposed to be saryn's finisher, as intended by its mechanics, but spore does the burst damage and sustained damage AND utility way better than miasma could ever do in its current state.

You safe up 100.000s trough poison and release it using her ultimate. You finish off whole maps by activation. Definitly. Not maybe or up to lvl 60? like the old saryn did. Definitly!

Only her mechanics make her a whole and her ultimate is a true(!) Ultimate ability. What's wrong with not doing the mammoth part by itself? Is the result any different?... do you guys rly want the old miasama back that couldn't do a fragment of what it's able to do now? Is that it? Only bc it was more comfortable to use?...

Edited March 21, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ograzzt]

1 hour ago, ThatOddDeer said:

and by that extension so is saryn, as spore's damage is power based and thus also negatively affected the aura ._.

people can be really clueless sometimes but that's why you gotta teach them

I didn't know spores can lock you on each Ancient Disruptor for a good 10 seconds (making him unkillable for other players) like Bladestorm. Thanks god you educated me. 

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, ThatOddDeer said:

But you're better off taking corrosive anyways. Killing that heavy in 1 shot then taking out another with a second shot is always more time efficient and ammo efficient, if ammo efficiency were even a problem for the lanka, and thus makes it a safer and more reliable alternative and this becomes more and more true as missions go on.

My full melee saryn, which only works because of shadowstep anyways because she isn't durable enough to survive melee otherwise, is great for shredding through heavies because toxic lash and spore are great offensively and can be made greater with any 15% crit melee with a good stance. But I have to use bandaids to fix problems in her kit and that shouldn't be the case.  

If we take a look at excalibur valkyr and wukong, their fourth ability is always the same effectiveness regardless of your weapon, it's the mods that count, which promotes variety in which weapons those frames take on missions. Saryn is the opposite of that, where people must take the same weapons on every mission to make the frame usable.

What bandaids are you referring to?

The Exalted weapons not requiring specific equipment is good, but they ultimately act as a replacement for that equipment anyway, which isn't really what we're talking about here.  Saryn's powers work well with any reliable Toxin proc weapon.  Making the case that you need top-end Toxin weapons to kill level 100 heavy Grineer?  You need top-end weapons to kill heavy Grineer, period.  

Of course and as always, this comes down to armor scaling and Damage 2.0 being broken more than anything else.

[(PSN)COGSPARTAN117]

8 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I feel like this needs to be posted every time someone defends saryn's rework. 

This post made my day. I lol'd uncontrollably as soon as I saw this. This is so true, and I'm definitely taking that pic. :D

Also, I feel like this video needs to be shown every time someone says Saryn does crazy high DPS, and that her kit is just fine the way it is.

 

[PikeOrShield]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)COGSPARTAN117 said:

This post made my day. I lol'd uncontrollably as soon as I saw this. This is so true, and I'm definitely taking that pic. :D

Also, I feel like this video needs to be shown every time someone says Saryn does crazy high DPS, and that her kit is just fine the way it is.

 

Sorry, but that video is kind of garbage and we already got our laughs out of it in this thread: