Saryn's DPS

[ThatOddDeer]

56 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

>Not using True Steel on Ichors
>Not realising that proc chance has diminishing returns
>Not using Ichors' OP ground finisher
>Not understanding the absurd difference between x4+ Nikana and x4+ Ichors.

Right.

>trying to use green text on warframe forums, top kek

let me address your points.

true steel has ALWAYS been a dps decrease. I could just throw on another 90% elemental and get more dps

Getting to 100% status chances is extremely important for endgame because corrosive and slash procs scale better than anything in the game damage wise.

The ground finisher is essentially 2x slash procs from a ground finisher. I could get the same from my nikana prime while also using blind justice to give 8+ slash procs from a single combo on 4-5 enemies while also triggering crit bleeds from the AoE knockdown. Way more dps than a single target ground finisher which gets less and less efficient timewise as a mission goes on.

I do understand the difference between 4x nikana prime and 4x dual ichors. Nikana prime wins every time

[Epsik-kun]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

true steel has ALWAYS been a dps decrease.

>Not knowing how Blood Rush and Naramon work.

[ThatOddDeer]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

-snip-

*Still not linear

*you're still playing it wrong

*Still scales exponential

 

Let me stop you right there because your math is off you're still going "lalala I can't hear you" please stop making a fool of yourself and adding nothing new to the conversation

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, Epsik-kun said:

>Not knowing how Blood Rush and Naramon work.

I know how they work. It's still not a dps increase. It wasn't a dps increase after naramon's 30% crit chance increase happened and not after blood rush either. It lets you hit the first level of red crit near certainty 1 combo level earlier, from 3.5x to 3x, but then doesn't really add much more than that in the long run. 

[fatpig84]

So ultimately you guys just proved a point. 
Saryn needs to be played in a certain way, use certain weapons and only use 1 damage type (Gas) on your weapons to get maximum use of her abilities.
Including Naramon on top of that. 

That is a bad situation, to put it bluntly. 

Anyway I have being asking DE to buff Miasma stun and range to 20 meters so I can use her as a 5 second stun bot.
But nobody takes it seriously because nobody uses Miasma anymore.

 

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, fatpig84 said:

So ultimately you guys just proved a point. 
Saryn needs to be played in a certain way, use certain weapons and only use 1 damage type (Gas) on your weapons to get maximum use of her abilities.
Including Naramon on top of that. 

That is a bad situation, to put it bluntly. 

Anyway I have being asking DE to buff Miasma stun and range to 20 meters so I can use her as a 5 second stun bot.
But nobody takes it seriously because nobody uses Miasma anymore.

 

Glad to see someone else that understands her problem. 

Also miasma stuns based on enemy type, which at most is 4 seconds on humanoids I think.

The most popular request for saryn is to make miasma shred armor, considering its a corrosive blast wave and if frost can shred armor with ice why can't we do it with saryn? Plus it would play into the synergy aspect by boosting the effectiveness of her toxic procs and spores. 

[Ivan_Rid]

Will you please stop this S#&$ flinging fest, before the thread is locked down and we have to repost everything in a new one, again.

28 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

As to your sorcery, you were probably getting quite a few slash procs from swirling tiger's knockdown into slash procs from the ground finisher. On a gas nikana prime versus my corrosive nikana prime It's about 20-30 hits less with my corrosive and that saves quite a few seconds. This gap gets bigger as enemiess get more and more armor and slash and corrosive procs continue to scale when gas does not.

No, no slash procs, it was quick melee for purity of comparsion (no failing combos if theres no combo).

Yeah, as enemy level increases (its over 100 already tho) corrosive proc values will increase, and Gas wont generate that many toxin dots outside of nicely packed crowd in simulacrum. But a single enemy would accumulate more toxin dots, which can be spread and refreshed by spores.

Problem is - your tests dont actually show playing her to the full potential of her gimmicks, you do the optimal route of killings with the corrosive weapons and Naramon. Everyone can do redcrit slash procs, not just Saryn. And we need to compare both playstyles and deduct as if playing Saryn to her theme and gimmicks is suboptimal.

edit: that part about refreshing toxic procs, nevermind that, its me being dumb.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Ivan_Rid

[fatpig84]

7 minutes ago, ClinkzEastwood said:

Ember got it worse at being locked into fire.

Nobody whines about it.

Why would I complain about Ember when this is a Saryn thread ? :f
Even then Ember still has a heck lot more utility in her abilities if you are not abusing fire damage.

Fire blast and Accelerant offer far more spammable CC than what Saryn has for sure.
And at a much greater range to boot.

Even WOF Firequake CC is more reliable than Miasma.

Edited April 5, 2016 by fatpig84

[ThatOddDeer]

6 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

On Dual Ichors True Steel gives more damage _per hit_ than Spoiled Strike does given you'll be able to get at least to x3 damage multiplier over the course of killing a group of enemies.

That's the first thing. The second thing is - in the actual game you won't be "warming up" your combo counter for each group of enemies. You will be running around with a constant 3+. 4+ for overstayed survivals. No build on Nikana can come even remotely close to what Ichors do on constant 4+.

 

Dual ichors don't even come close. Warframe builder doesn't even take into account stance multipliers and that pushes things even more in favor of nikana prime with its amazing blind justice stance.

[ThatOddDeer]

7 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

Will you please stop this S#&$ flinging fest, before the thread is locked down and we have to repost everything in a new one, again.

No, no slash procs, it was quick melee for purity of comparsion (no failing combos if theres no combo).

Yeah, as enemy level increases (its over 100 already tho) corrosive proc values will increase, and Gas wont generate that many toxin dots outside of nicely packed crowd in simulacrum. But a single enemy would accumulate more toxin dots, which can be spread and refreshed by spores.

Problem is - your tests dont actually show playing her to the full potential of her gimmicks, you do the optimal route of killings with the weapons and Naramon. Everyone can do redcrit slash procs, not just Saryn. And we need to compare both playstyles and deduct as if playing Saryn to her theme and gimmicks is suboptimal.

I can actually test this for you with the Bo prime, since it has no slash procs, and get back to you. Gimme a bit and I'll have a video

[ThatOddDeer]

22 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I can actually test this for you with the Bo prime, since it has no slash procs, and get back to you. Gimme a bit and I'll have a video

Here we go. The reason gas killed so much faster was because they got nice and clumped up for me. Allowing me to get a bunch of gas procs, which poisoned them, and then proccing the critical bleeding effect with a slam. The bo prime, having no slash, actually does better with gas than it does with corrosive and the opposite is true with slash weapons. Toxic lash toxin procs can not critically bleed because they're a power and power damage is considered alerted damage when slash, toxin procs from weapon and gas procs can all be made unalerted damage with a slam.

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[Epsik-kun]

31 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Dual ichors don't even come close.

Yeah, not even close. Save for the fact they attack around three times as fast as Nikana and have their critical chance further amplified by Naramon. You should really stop talking about things you have no idea about.

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, Epsik-kun said:

Yeah, not even close. Save for the fact they attack around three times as fast as Nikana and have their critical chance further amplified by Naramon. You should really stop talking about things you have no idea about.

Warframe builder takes attack speed into account, With berserker too. The math is right there in front of you but you can ignore it all you like. Naramon is an addtional 30% crit chance multiplied after true steel and blood rush. At 4x combo multiplier nikana prime has 316% crit chance and dual ichor has 395%. If we use organ shatter as the only differential between the damage, that means equal base damage which they do not have, then dual ichor could win over an extraordinarily numerous amounts of hits. However nikana prime has double the base damage of dual ichor, that's 100% more damage before anything is included. Next we take into stance multipliers and multihit and nikana prime blows dual ichor out of the water since the compounded effect of doubled base damage, about an extra 250% more extra damage than swirling tiger's best combo on blind justice's worst combo with its guaranteed multiple slash procs which ignore armor and shields entirely.

As you keep comparing them in depth, with the warframe builder as reference to their total dps, which includes the dual ichors higher attack speed, you can plainly see than nikana prime doesn't lose under any circumstance.

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, ThatOddDeer said:

Warframe builder takes attack speed into account

Except it doesn't. It takes "attack animation speed" into account, which doesn't really serve any purpose unless you are comparing two weapons of the same type. You should really stop talking about things you have no idea about.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 hour ago, fatpig84 said:

So ultimately you guys just proved a point. 
Saryn needs to be played in a certain way, use certain weapons and only use 1 damage type (Gas) on your weapons to get maximum use of her abilities.
Including Naramon on top of that. 

That is a bad situation, to put it bluntly. 

Anyway I have being asking DE to buff Miasma stun and range to 20 meters so I can use her as a 5 second stun bot.
But nobody takes it seriously because nobody uses Miasma anymore.

 

I do...seen the appearently correct example i put up on the last page?

 

Miasama explodes one spore on each enemy with a spore on the chest region, which reflects in the spore damage and spreads 3x 50% dot.

In detail: Lets say we reach a state where evry enemy has approximately 2000% weapon damage on them, wouldn't need that much setup... 20 enemys in range.

This would detonate 20x2000% weapon damage and spread 60x 1000% poison.

Miasama definitly has its right to exist as radial damage source.

Casting miasma and molt on a regular base would also substain for the radial damage source a for example torid would offer and lash appearently scales off the final number so all you need to do is doing damage. Naramon, yea, definitly needet but this was a bandaid for melee in generell...no real issue in my book.

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I do...seen the appearently correct example i put up on the last page?

 

Lets say evry enemy in range would have poison worth multiple thousand % weapon damage on them.

Miasama explodes one spore on each enemy with a spore on the chest region, which reflects in the spore damage and spreads 3x 50% dot.

Lets say we reach a state where evry enemy has approximately 2000% weapon damage on them, wouldn't need that much setup... 20 enemys in range.

This would detonate 20x2000% weapon damage and spread 60x 1000% poison.

Miasama definitly has its right to exist as radial damage source.

Except said idea does not work because once one spore is popped and spreads its toxin, all further spore-related toxin procs won't do anything. That's why you would need to re-apply toxin to every enemy in range from an outside source, double tapping molt for example. You would have to double tap molt for every single spore popping from that miasma, except you can't hit molt 60 times before miasmas ticks go off, both because of time and energy constraints. The way you think spores work is not how they do in reality. Go to the simulacrum, try to make miasma effective and come back with video proof. I've supported all my claims with videos so far and you have your skewed idea of how it works. If you can prove it that is.

 

[ThatOddDeer]

15 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Except it doesn't. It takes "attack animation speed" into account, which doesn't really serve any purpose unless you are comparing two weapons of the same type. You should really stop talking about things you have no idea about.

There's no convincing you is there. That's fine. Math says I'm right. Animation speed is roughly equal for non-quick melee between swirling tiger and blind justice combos so that's moot. You keep using dual ichors, I'll keep using nikana and scindo prime and I'll enjoy doing more damage than you to all armored enemies regardless of ferrite or alloy armor .

You really need to stop talking about things you have no reasonable clue about because all you're doing is spreading information that is not objectively correct.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

8 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Except said idea does not work because once one spore is popped and spreads its toxin, all further spore-related toxin procs won't do anything. That's why you would need to re-apply toxin to every enemy in range from an outside source, double tapping molt for example. You would have to double tap molt for every single spore popping from that miasma, except you can't hit molt 60 times before miasmas ticks go off, both because of time and energy constraints. The way you think spores work is not how they do in reality. Go to the simulacrum, try to make miasma effective and come back with video proof. I've supported all my claims with videos so far and you have your skewed idea of how it works. If you can prove it that is.

 

Untill it gains another toxic procc...for example by the infused poison of the 60 toxic instances that are spread in this action~ 

That's how it works right? 

Who exactly says that the spore spread toxin doesn't count as source? It just can't spread to itself. Cross-spread is a entirely different chapter.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Untill it gains another toxic procc...for example by the spread poison of the 60 poison instances that are spread in this action~ 

That's how it works right? 

Who exactly says that the spore spread toxin doesn't count as source? It just can't spread to itself. Cross-spread is a entirely different chapter.

 

Nope. that's not how it works.

Wiki says that.

Spore-spread toxin procs don't stack with themselves. If it DID work that way spores would be exponential and saryn would be a top-tier frame from spores alone.

[Ivan_Rid]

47 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Here we go. The reason gas killed so much faster was because they got nice and clumped up for me. Allowing me to get a bunch of gas procs, which poisoned them, and then proccing the critical bleeding effect with a slam. The bo prime, having no slash, actually does better with gas than it does with corrosive and the opposite is true with slash weapons. Toxic lash toxin procs can not critically bleed because they're a power and power damage is considered alerted damage when slash, toxin procs from weapon and gas procs can all be made unalerted damage with a slam.

First - obligatory complaints: you took an impact weapon and still did bleed procs? Dude, just what the hell, sure its beatiful, but experiment is ruined. It took 123 hits with Gas and over 200 with Corrosive. And why only 8 targets? Anyway, thanks a lot for a video.

Second - "Toxic lash toxin procs can not critically bleed because they're a power"

This is news for me and this is very bad for melee Saryn. If I get what you`re saying right.

Third - "The bo prime, having no slash, actually does better with gas than it does with corrosive and the opposite is true with slash weapons."

I dont see the mechanical reason for that, slash has a built in armour bypass even without corrosive (bleed procs). To me it looks like that Gas for Saryn beats (or at least competes fairly with) Corrosive even at this level of enemy armour scaling (and with just 8 targets) due to her abilites synergy. And value of Corrosive proc decreases (and is destroyed by 4xCP meta) with every application while value of Gas proc increases.

[ThatOddDeer]

8 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

First - obligatory complaints: you took an impact weapon and still did bleed procs? Dude, just what the hell, sure its beatiful, but experiment is ruined. It took 123 hits with Gas and over 200 with Corrosive. And why only 8 targets? Anyway, thanks a lot for a video.

Second - "Toxic lash toxin procs can not critically bleed because they're a power"

This is news for me and this is very bad for melee Saryn. If I get what you`re saying right.

Third - "The bo prime, having no slash, actually does better with gas than it does with corrosive and the opposite is true with slash weapons."

I dont see the mechanical reason for that, slash has a built in armour bypass even without corrosive (bleed procs). To me it looks like that Gas for Saryn beats (or at least competes fairly with) Corrosive even at this level of enemy armour scaling (and with just 8 targets) due to her abilites synergy. And value of Corrosive proc decreases (and is destroyed by 4xCP meta) with every application while value of Gas proc increases.

No bleed procs. I call the effect that turns DoTs into finisher damage critical bleeds.

I used 8 targets because I didn't want to spend forever killing 20 with corrosive.

The mechanical differece between corrosive and gas depends on the weapons IPS types. Gas does better with impact because it's the only source of DoTs for melee saryn.

On the other hand, corrosive makes future slash procs more and more effective while increasing total dps and the slash procs serve as the DoT instead of gas based toxin. for my other weapons, scindo and nikana prime, dual ichor and dual prisma cleavers, corrosive always won by about 20-25% less hits to kill

Edited April 5, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

15 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Nope. that's not how it works.

Wiki says that.

Spore-spread toxin procs don't stack with themselves. If it DID work that way spores would be exponential and saryn would be a top-tier frame from spores alone.

Where? Copy-paste please.

It does say 

Only one spore on the infected enemy can transfer Toxin damage until that enemy becomes damaged by a new toxic proc.

Tho so you're right about that

But

If an infected enemy is being damaged by a toxic proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread toxic damage to surrounding enemies.

Spread-new source-stack. Poison in fact doesn't have known stack limits by itself, nor mentioned limitations on the spores so the shared poison is definitly a new souce, which resets the burst and spread.

But proove me wrong. Show me the part where it's excludet in the wiki.

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[ThatOddDeer]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Where? Copy-paste please.

It does say 

Only one spore on the infected enemy can transfer Toxin damage until that enemy becomes damaged by a new toxic proc.

Tho so you're right about that

But

If an infected enemy is being damaged by a toxic proc, popping a spore on that enemy will also spread toxic damage to surrounding enemies.

Spread-new source-stack. Poison in fact doesn't have known stack limits by itself, nor mentioned limitations on the spores so the shared poison is definitly a new souce, which resets the burst and spread.

But proove me wrong. Show me the part where it's excludet in the wiki.

Well when we consider what the wiki says, it reduces the maximum amount of spores popped by miasma to 20, and that's if all 3 are on the chest, which can't happen so if we assume 1/5 chance for a spore to appear on a chest that's 4 spores popped maximum, average less, per miasma dealing a potential of 50% of the toxin from an individual enemy. 

Furthermore, I believe that the wiki text that says that popping a spore on a poisoned enemy means that that toxin proc is now no longer available as a spreader proc. All the new targets infected with said proc can't spread from the proc you put on it. If you wail and wail on  single enemy and stack toxin procs on them before casting spore and spreading it's toxin procs around, all you would have done is covered all the other enemies in "exhausted" toxin procs that can't spread any more. In order for your idea to work the only viable tactic would be to spam molt over and over. Each enemy hit would have a new toxin proc from the explosion and each of the 3 spores would be carrying a new proc.

 

Molt works exactly the way you think miasma and spore interact. However molt doesn't really do all that much damage and it doesn't scale in any shape or form

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

13 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Well when we consider what the wiki says, it reduces the maximum amount of spores popped by miasma to 20, and that's if all 3 are on the chest, which can't happen so if we assume 1/5 chance for a spore to appear on a chest that's 4 spores popped maximum, average less, per miasma dealing a potential of 50% of the toxin from an individual enemy. 

Furthermore, I believe that the wiki text that says that popping a spore on a poisoned enemy means that that toxin proc is now no longer available as a spreader proc. All the new targets infected with said proc can't spread from the proc you put on it. If you wail and wail on  single enemy and stack toxin procs on them before casting spore and spreading it's toxin procs around, all you would have done is covered all the other enemies in "exhausted" toxin procs that can't spread any more. In order for your idea to work the only viable tactic would be to spam molt over and over. Each enemy hit would have a new toxin proc from the explosion and each of the 3 spores would be carrying a new proc.

 

Molt works exactly the way you think miasma and spore interact. However molt doesn't really do all that much damage and it doesn't scale in any shape or form

When spores are popped on a target, one damage tick is removed from the target for the remainder of the duration. All secondary targets in range will be applied with a new duration of Spores. The primary target's duration is not renewed unless a secondary target's Spore is popped, applying a new duration that is separate to the previous duration.

 

This one right? This litteraly means that the spore viral dot is gone and refreshed when you destroy a spore. Nowhere is it mentioned that the poison is consumed, nor that the spore shared poison is excludet.

It is exactly as exceptional as you doubt it to be.

Edited April 5, 2016 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

But again, proove me wrong. I may have overlooked it.