Saryn's DPS

[Ivan_Rid]

28 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

The proc does not scale with the damage numbers you do, since this is affected by all mods. It only takes into account base damage of the weapon and base damage mods

While it is generally the case, Toxin proc from Toxic Lash is based on total damage, at least according to wiki. Another "special" mechanic.

Assuming 100% Power Str its 15% of weapon total damage in 11 ticks over 10 seconds.

 

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, Ivan_Rid said:

While it is generally the case, Toxin proc from Toxic Lash is based on total damage, at least according to wiki. Another "special" mechanic.

Assuming 100% Power Str its 15% of weapon total damage in 11 ticks over 10 seconds.

 

The wiki has failed us when it comes to saryn mechanics so far. I feel that it might need to be edited to take note of the bugs and anti-synergies within the kit to promote player knowledge of these issues.

[akira_him]

3 hours ago, ThatOddDeer said:

@akira_him

What do you think of the proposed changes I listed on the previous pages

Basically what djego says

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

I did notice it myself, mostly in excavation above L140. As it looks like it only transfers the highest toxic proc when you pop the spore instead of the full stack. This might be actually intended, given how high you can scale it with melee. The melee procs are a lot stronger then any ranged weapon ones for the simply reason that everything counts towards the strength of your proc, combo counter, stance multiplier, ground finisher bonus, stealth bonus with shadow step towards and so on, while on ranged weapons it is just base damage mods, head shots and crits. Given how effective Hiku prime and Ignis would be with this it might be intended.

I do  agree on the corrosive procs on miasma, since this would make it still useful at high levels if you get some CC with spores. Currently the only reason to use miasma is the stun at high levels. It is to expansive for that, while nearly all frames have her quick CC at her 1 or 2, cast time is far to long as CC tool and the damage benefit is as negotiable as WoF in L100 content.

 

[ThatOddDeer]

2 minutes ago, akira_him said:

Basically what djego says

 

Well if saryn is currently working as intended and you only get at best a single proc that is highly disappointing. You're stuck using ground slams or charge attacks and are punished for applying more toxin procs and the only guns that do the poison spread well are the two highest damaging guns per shot in the game. The lack of diversity is killing me and saryn's options.

If anything I am against any form of CC on spores because then you essentially have an mprime for 1/4th the energy and much larger potential uptime. Spore is already incredibly powerful and apart from the misleading mechanics and odd bugs and it doesn't need to be even more powerful than miasma. I would rather the weaker parts of her kit get some much needed love and attention.

[akira_him]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Well if saryn is currently working as intended and you only get at best a single proc that is highly disappointing. You're stuck using ground slams or charge attacks and are punished for applying more toxin procs and the only guns that do the poison spread well are the two highest damaging guns per shot in the game. The lack of diversity is killing me and saryn's options.

If anything I am against any form of CC on spores because then you essentially have an mprime for 1/4th the energy and much larger potential uptime. Spore is already incredibly powerful and apart from the misleading mechanics and odd bugs and it doesn't need to be even more powerful than miasma. I would rather the weaker parts of her kit get some much needed love and attention.

I agree Toxic lash should work outside melee and maybe just make miasma shred armor when poping spores like you suggested

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, akira_him said:

I agree Toxic lash should work outside melee and maybe just make miasma shred armor when poping spores like you suggested

I'd appreciate if it was an armor buff or damage reduction ala ember's old overheat ability. Similar to warcry or speed in that sense.

And I really like the idea of making miasma shred armor extremely well on spored targets, like each spore is a cluster of flesh and armor melting chemicals waiting for miasma to unleash. Very thematic and synergistic.   With those changes all that's left is the odd CC design of miasma, spore's inconsistencies, and molt's slew of issues. If anything I would let gun damage stack spore and toxin procs as advertised and possibly restrict toxic lash if it proves too strong with a consistent spore. Ideally saryn wouldn't need that restriction on her melee buff because [DE] seems to strongly believe that is where she truly belongs.

[Djego27]

The toxic proc is always reduced by armor. If I remember correctly the proc base values are already based on the migrated value by armor when you get the proc, what means the proc is much higher if you hit a unit without armor.

I am not familiar with Necros at high level as CC frame, since SOD and Terrify can be fairly unreliable at times and it would most likely massively limit your ability to generate extra life support. On Frost I could see the point in a long survival if you for some reason can't get 4 CP together. In defence you always will need 190% ish range for the globe to prevent bombard missile AOE apply damage towards the defence target and some kind of build that is quite spam able to work with the 4s immunity window, what is not really feasible in the 250% power strength build you would need for 100% armor removal.

On mag, I don't think that will happen. Overall what was shown with the mag rework is not really something I am looking forward to, but I guess we have to wait and see how it is in detail when it is released.

While a high percentage armor reduction would be better it would make it very different then on the other frames where it is limited to specific power strength and duration builds. I really like my 100% armor ignore Trinity for solo sorti runs(especially melee only), but I would never use it in a group based high level survival, since the range for EV is to limited, you can't really use link as a bless trinity(glaive explosions are not powerful enught to get a 99% blessing during link, switching to a secondary takes a lot more time and even a sloppy transition with 0.5s delay can kill halve of your team, as it did happen to me yesterday in corpus eximus survival once) and the blessing duration is to short to work with it on a constant basis. If I pug the L100 sorti I always run my bless trinity, since it is more beneficial to the team.

A extra corrosive proc per tick is fine in my opinion given the amount of targets you can hit in a spore build and that you can't do high levels with any of the other augment mods as team based solution. You will always need CP and I really hope that is something that gets addressed in damage 3.0, even if I am not really that optimistic for it and expect that a lot of the status weapons will take a massive hit by it.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Djego27

[ThatOddDeer]

8 hours ago, Djego27 said:

-snip-

A extra corrosive proc per tick is fine in my opinion given the amount of targets you can hit in a spore build and that you can't do high levels with any of the other augment mods as team based solution. You will always need CP and I really hope that is something that gets addressed in damage 3.0, even if I am not really that optimistic for it and expect that a lot of the status weapons will take a massive hit by it.

Either Miasma needs like 12 corrosive procs per cast or it needs to be % max armor per tick. As a mock-up for the number I would like to see maybe 5-10% armor shred per tick with miasma but for every spore on the target the amount per tick is increased by up to 3 time, so if the target has 3 spores at the time of cast, it would  take 15-30% per tick. This could be affected by power strength. The debuffer frame should be able to strip armor better than any of the other frames I listed.

As an aside, you can reach 100% armor shred with over extended with frost if you have arcane squall.

[RealPandemonium]

1 hour ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Either Miasma needs like 12 corrosive procs per cast or it needs to be % max armor per tick. As a mock-up for the number I would like to see maybe 5-10% armor shred per tick with miasma but for every spore on the target the amount per tick is increased by up to 3 time, so if the target has 3 spores at the time of cast, it would  take 15-30% per tick. This could be affected by power strength. The debuffer frame should be able to strip armor better than any of the other frames I listed.

As an aside, you can reach 100% armor shred with over extended with frost if you have arcane squall.

What about -100 base armor per tick on top of Corrosive proc chance?

[ThatOddDeer]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

What about -100 base armor per tick on top of Corrosive proc chance?

You wouldn't even need corrosive proc then. It would take a maximum of 2 casts to strip even the most armored enemies I know of.

This is something I can get behind as well.

Edited April 9, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[Ivan_Rid]

My rebalance ideas:

Spores -

Transfer only the toxin proc that popped them.

Toxin proc always forces spore to pop for full radius, even if target is killed (so assuming 3 spores on one-shotted target - one bursts for full radius and spreads toxin, while two others burst for half the radius).

Spores burst for half the radius when their duration is expired.

Molt -

Burst spores can spread to Molt.

If burst spore transfers the toxin proc to Molt then Molt absorbs it and is healed/gets bonus hp. Blows up for more damage the more toxin procs it absorbs.

Miasma -

Besides adding Corrosive procs, I would love it to be some kind of hybrid of Ember Accelerant and Banshee Silence. Basically like a cloud centered on Saryn that travels with her, staggers enemies, procs corrosive, and makes everyone in a radius more susceptible to Toxin damage.

 

[ThatOddDeer]

6 minutes ago, Ivan_Rid said:

My rebalance ideas:

Spores -

Transfer only the toxin proc that popped them.

Toxin proc always forces spore to pop for full radius, even if target is killed (so assuming 3 spores on one-shotted target - one bursts for full radius and spreads toxin, while two others burst for half the radius).

Spores burst for half the radius when their duration is expired.

Molt -

Burst spores can spread to Molt.

If burst spore transfers the toxin proc to Molt then Molt absorbs it and is healed/gets bonus hp. Blows up for more damage the more toxin procs it absorbs.

Miasma -

Besides adding Corrosive procs, I would love it to be some kind of hybrid of Ember Accelerant and Banshee Silence. Basically like a cloud centered on Saryn that travels with her, staggers enemies, procs corrosive, and makes everyone in a radius more susceptible to Toxin damage.

 

Spores- Already does the the "transfer only the toxin proc that popped them" otherwise makes sense.

Molt- I like the idea of molt being a spread vector. It still needs to have a minimum time alive to draw aggro and it needs to have its bugs fixed.

You didn't include toxic lash but there are plenty of good ideas posted on this thread so far.

Miasma- corrosive procs have already been defined as highly undesirable, unless damage 3.0 fixes them severely, so % max armor or base armor reduction are better ideas that currently fit within the existing kits of other warframes. However, I love the idea of a walking cloud, not the biggest range, that follows saryn instead of a radial nuke. It'll make her want to stay in melee more and with a kit that's fixed/buffed this change would further reinforce her theme

[kitsu]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:39 PM, ThatOddDeer said:

As the saryn in question I can confirm this was the case. It mirrors the studies I have done in the simulacrum, the lanka is providing all the power in this case and my spores, which should be helping, are proving little more than ineffective. 

Mind if I ask what your saryn build is, as well as the lanka build?

[ThatOddDeer]

1 hour ago, kitsu said:

Mind if I ask what your saryn build is, as well as the lanka build?

I'll get you builds right after this mission.

[ThatOddDeer]

 

 

@kitsu

Here you go, this is my all purpose saryn with a bit melee focus.

The lanka is not fully formaed yet but I still have to wait for them to craft. Even being MR 21, forma is still a problem. Especially since  I want to put 100 forma on my nikana prime

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by ThatOddDeer

[kitsu]

24 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

@kitsu

Here you go, this is my all purpose saryn with a bit melee focus.

Alright, thanks. I can actually see why you are having a bit of trouble with spores now.

The lanka build is ok, though I highly recommend removing argon scope as that does not work that well with weapons that have long delays between shots.

Here is a pic of my build of the lanka, also I am planning on adding catalyzer link in the last slot when I add a forma in.

As for your saryn build, that could use a lot of work depending on what you are building for.

Personally, I found out that her 4 is just dead now due to the rework.

Her 3 is ok depending on what weapon you are using, I've come to find out a gas build melee is quite something.

Her 2 is alright if you need to use it to start a spore spread or cause a distraction.

Her 1 can become quite something if you fully mod for it, and I mean everything being built around her 1, while leaving her 2, 3, and 4 in a state of uselessness.

Here is a picture of my saryn build that spreads gas procs like you would not believe. I do plan on adding a exilus slot and forma so I can add in a health mod and maximize the rest of the mods I have on her currently.

See if you can make something close to what I have and run that as a test. Also don't worry about efficiency since this is purely built around spores, which costs 25 energy.

P.S. Naramon shadow step is currently your friend if you want to go melee intensive with Saryn. Get a nice crit weapon, get body count and blood rush and have at them with invisibility to keep you safe.

Edited April 10, 2016 by kitsu

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, kitsu said:

Alright, thanks. I can actually see why you are having a bit of trouble with spores now.

The lanka build is ok, though I highly recommend removing argon scope as that does not work that well with weapons that have long delays between shots.

Here is a pic of my build of the lanka, also I am planning on adding catalyzer link in the last slot when I add a forma in.

As for your saryn build, that could use a lot of work depending on what you are building for.

Personally, I found out that her 4 is just dead now due to the rework.

Her 3 is ok depending on what weapon you are using, I've come to find out a gas build melee is quite something.

Her 2 is alright if you need to use it to start a spore spread or cause a distraction.

Her 1 can become quite something if you fully mod for it, and I mean everything being built around her 1, while leaving her 2, 3, and 4 in a state of uselessness.

Here is a picture of my saryn build that spreads gas procs like you would not believe. I do plan on adding a exilus slot and forma so I can add in a health mod and maximize the rest of the mods I have on her currently.

See if you can make something close to what I have and run that as a test. Also don't worry about efficiency since this is purely built around spores, which costs 25 energy.

I'll get back to you with a video showing why spore, even with max power strength, isn't actually adding all that much. Like the lanka is good and all. especially with gas. I like my build because I'm not a super squishy frame then. I don't feel the need for 250% range either because 190% is already 30.4 metes and that;s a pretty big range. 

 

On an aside, these builds showcase that saryn's spore only works when forgoing everything else in it and only with a particular weapon. I call that far from balanced if you need such tight specifications to perform on the level of similar frames.

[kitsu]

Just now, ThatOddDeer said:

On an aside, these builds showcase that saryn's spore only works when forgoing everything else in it and only with a particular weapon. I call that far from balanced if you need such tight specifications to perform on the level of similar frames.

Not exactly when you mean weapons. I've also got a fairly good use out gas built telos akbolto which helped spread everything quite far, some even go with concealed explosives or anything that can pop spores and get them spreading asap.

Now, the issue with range and spore is based on how things die and how spore is spread. Spore looses 50% of its range if the enemy dies and none of the spores were popped. This causes a huge waste in spread and effectiveness as well as allowing the procs and spores themselves to spread throughout the rooms.

I've used this exact build testing the gas lanka in the simularcrum with all 20 enemies on the field. Put a spore on one in the middle far end, headshot gas proc, now everyone has spores and toxin damage from the gas proc. Try it on the lvl 135 corpus tech. I've watched the entire room just disintegrate in seconds. Now mind you armor plays a huge role in the effectiveness of the spores and procs that spread with it.

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, kitsu said:

Not exactly when you mean weapons. I've also got a fairly good use out gas built telos akbolto which helped spread everything quite far, some even go with concealed explosives or anything that can pop spores and get them spreading asap.

Now, the issue with range and spore is based on how things die and how spore is spread. Spore looses 50% of its range if the enemy dies and none of the spores were popped. This causes a huge waste in spread and effectiveness as well as allowing the procs and spores themselves to spread throughout the rooms.

I've used this exact build testing the gas lanka in the simularcrum with all 20 enemies on the field. Put a spore on one in the middle far end, headshot gas proc, now everyone has spores and toxin damage from the gas proc. Try it on the lvl 135 corpus tech. I've watched the entire room just disintegrate in seconds. Now mind you armor plays a huge role in the effectiveness of the spores and procs that spread with it.

What I mean by weapons is that the lanka seems to be the only thing consistently making spores effective. Rapid-fire proc weapons like the torid, ignis and embolist do not add meaningful damage to the spore bursts or the toxin procs associated with the bursts despite being advertised as doing so.

Your build is excellent for spores and spores only, however I play saryn for her melee bonuses(weak as they may be) and I always like to pack insurance when I play in groups. 1 person not running shadowstep is enough to get 1 shot by a stay bombard rocket.

I was aware of the 50% reduction in range from a target dieing with spores. Now i'll be back shortly once the video has finished processing

[ThatOddDeer]

 

I started off with a 235% range build and that wasn't enough so I added an extra 15% with cunning drift and that managed to spread to the whole room. What was odd was that when I finally got a gas proc on 250% range I only got 3 ticks of 1771 damage rather than the full duration of a new toxin proc, which according to the wiki I should. And even more confusing was in the next set when I casted spore and got a gas proc the enemies on the far left got spores on them yet the didn't get the increased burst damage or a toxin proc. So now we have the problem of toxin procs not lasting as long as stated and sometimes not even happening.

[kitsu]

2 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

I started off with a 235% range build and that wasn't enough so I added an extra 15% with cunning drift and that managed to spread to the whole room. What was odd was that when I finally got a gas proc on 250% range I only got 3 ticks of 1771 damage rather than the full duration of a new toxin proc, which according to the wiki I should. And even more confusing was in the next set when I casted spore and got a gas proc the enemies on the far left got spores on them yet the didn't get the increased burst damage or a toxin proc. So now we have the problem of toxin procs not lasting as long as stated and sometimes not even happening.

Your duration is way too low to even effectively use spores in anything sadly. That's the shameful part about moding saryn. Have to go all in to make her actually good at it the ability you want her to excel at.

Give it a try again with a higher duration. The spores last longer and they carry the toxin proc longer too. Try is on corpus tech eximus as they can help give you a more accurate read on the procs. One odd thing I have noticed is a diminishing damage based on how far they are from the initial proc hit.

Another thing is electric procs not only pop all the spores on the enemy that got the proc, but it also pops all the spores on any enemies nearby, which can effectively self destroy any good spore chains. This is why I opted for both range and duration. Though I have to agree, seems power has no effect on the strength of the toxin proc the spores carry, So I can drop those and put in survivability mods instead.

On a side note, any weapon with good damage and high status chance can be modded for gas and do relatively well with saryn's spores. For melee, primed reach is always handy for that extra length.

[ThatOddDeer]

1 minute ago, kitsu said:

Your duration is way too low to even effectively use spores in anything sadly. That's the shameful part about moding saryn. Have to go all in to make her actually good at it the ability you want her to excel at.

Give it a try again with a higher duration. The spores last longer and they carry the toxin proc longer too. Try is on corpus tech eximus as they can help give you a more accurate read on the procs. One odd thing I have noticed is a diminishing damage based on how far they are from the initial proc hit.

Another thing is electric procs not only pop all the spores on the enemy that got the proc, but it also pops all the spores on any enemies nearby, which can effectively self destroy any good spore chains. This is why I opted for both range and duration. Though I have to agree, seems power has no effect on the strength of the toxin proc the spores carry, So I can drop those and put in survivability mods instead.

On a side note, any weapon with good damage and high status chance can be modded for gas and do relatively well with saryn's spores. For melee, primed reach is always handy for that extra length.

Duration isn't even all that important on spore because new spores always start at max duration and toxin procs aren't affected power duration so that takes that out of the equation.The only weapons with good enough damage are the lanka and tonkor sadly since spore won;t stack all your toxin procs for you. I'll showcase it with corpus techs too but I highly feel that I'll get similar problems with both the spread of the spores and the duration of the toxin procs.

[kitsu]

1 minute ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Duration isn't even all that important on spore because new spores always start at max duration and toxin procs aren't affected power duration so that takes that out of the equation.The only weapons with good enough damage are the lanka and tonkor sadly since spore won;t stack all your toxin procs for you. I'll showcase it with corpus techs too but I highly feel that I'll get similar problems with both the spread of the spores and the duration of the toxin procs.

How strange then. I am able to get about 10 tics of toxin damage from one gas proc. The damage varies depending on the crit or base damage. Some of them can be 1700 or go upwards to 6700 toxin damage per tic for 10 tics. I've just tested this and counted the number of tics until the toxin proc disappeared, or killed them.

[ThatOddDeer]

Just now, kitsu said:

How strange then. I am able to get about 10 tics of toxin damage from one gas proc. The damage varies depending on the crit or base damage. Some of them can be 1700 or go upwards to 6700 toxin damage per tic for 10 tics. I've just tested this and counted the number of tics until the toxin proc disappeared, or killed them.

Take a closer look at my video and look when i zoom in on the side groups. I did so after getting gas procs to track their effectiveness on the side groups. ALso the lanka gets more damage due to the combo counter over time, especially when shooting through 2 targets at once which is why I usually test with 5 enemies, there is always one without another behind it.

[kitsu]

9 minutes ago, ThatOddDeer said:

Take a closer look at my video and look when i zoom in on the side groups. I did so after getting gas procs to track their effectiveness on the side groups. ALso the lanka gets more damage due to the combo counter over time, especially when shooting through 2 targets at once which is why I usually test with 5 enemies, there is always one without another behind it.

Oh no, I was never referring to the ones grouped up in the middle. Not at all. See this is where max range gets interesting because I can actually observe the effects of the gas proc well beyond its aoe range. This is the damage that is carried over by the spores themselves.

So try this. Max range build. Enemies in the far middle. Cast spore. Fire lanka and make sure it procs gas. If it does not, reset and try again. Once a gad proc occurs, stop shooting and look at the enemies on the far left or far right.

My tests show that 1 gas proc will travel to every enemy within range of the first spore popped by the gas proc. What is interesting is any enemies that died to the gas proc carried by the spore will ALSO infect any non proc enemies with spore and a completely refreshed gas proc, albeit weaker too, seems this effect has a 1/3 reduction in tic damage if done this way. But no matter what I do, it will always be 10 tics of damage. Not even continuous misery can extend it, which honestly, I think it should.

 

 

Edit: I forgot to mention increase duration too, It does not need to be much, but at least 150%

Edited April 10, 2016 by kitsu
Forgot to mention duration