Damage Abilitys Useless Later On

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I disagree! It should be up to the player to decide which skills they like. If anything, I think we should have a minimum of 6-8 abilities to choose from and not just the four. Regardless, I run my Nyx with only one ability >.>

 

I do think the other frames though could use with some adjustment to their abilities though. Make all ultimates ignore armor for instance. Lots of Mag's abilities could use some TLC as well. Then theres some that just dont level up like Snowglobe, and Ive always thought there should be some improvement from level 0 to level 1 but I dont know any off hand that do.

 

Of course, what abilities we choose to use in the end is completely up to us.

 

However, the existence of 4 " slots in all frames is undoubtedly a sign of penalization for not using all 4 skills (By putting in a non " mod or by not fully utilizing all the slots) and reward for using all 4 skills (hence 4 " slots instead of 4 slots without polarity)

 

There definitely exist the choice of how many and what abilities you want to put but whether that is the ideal usage of the system by looking at the polarities (as I mentioned earlier) is questionable.

 

That said, the idea of having more choices in terms of skill selection is indeed a good one and has been mentioned before.

[unmog]

That said, the idea of having more choices in terms of skill selection is indeed a good one and has been mentioned before.

Yea, I know, I like bringing it up. I think the current abilities should be relooked at [preferably all by the same person so they can make a list and make sure its all relatively balanced so one frame isnt inferior to another] but also that each frame maybe get 2 or 4 more new abilities.

 

Id even be all for like, a few new "global abilities" for instance, like an abilitiy EVERY frame can use. Maybe something like, I dunno, being able to fire your gun for a period of time without using ammo. Or an AOE effect around you that starts regening your shields. Or something that makes all your melee attacks do more damage. Or a high damage single target strike.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I dont think thats a problem at all. The difference though is they expect each frame to be equal in the term of usefulness, but the abilities arent balanced with one another. For instance, Ash's Shuriken does a lot more damage than Nyx's psychi bolts, but it's essentially the same attack. The only difference is Nyx's attack costs more. That doesnt make a lot of sense does it? Why should one ability cost more and do less damage, than another frames similar ability?

 

Could also compare Mag's Crush with other Frames direct damage abilities, it just gets outshined by basically every other frames ultimate. Then you have issues with some frames just not having very useful utility abilities, like Mag's pull for instance. Or her shield polarization which is under inspiring... and well basically Mag doesnt have ANY good abilities really. Even bullet attractor is only good with excalibur, it should increase the damage to all shots to that of a crit or headshot since you lose the ability to headshot the enemy while its cast on them,

 

That's actually something I find very wierd when people call for balance.

 

It is always just a comparison between 1 skill from 1 frame and 1 skill from other frames.

 

This way of balancing fail to take into consideration of the skill selection of the frame (take Rhino for eg), the role of the frame in a party and also the survivability of the frame (base stats which also include energy pool).

 

For instance, Mag is a supporter.

 

That is her role in the party. She has only 1 direct damage skill.

 

We should not be balancing her to be on par with the attack frames in terms of damage.

 

It is like how we should never be asking for more hp, shield or armor on an attack frame like Excalibur by comparing his stats to a Rhino or Frost.

 

It is also the reason why some frames do less damage in their skills than others.

 

They are not attack frames. They may be a healer frame, supporter frame, tank frame or controller frame. These types aren't meant to deal high damages.

 

If they can deal high damages and still heal, tank, control or support, wouldn't they be OP?

 

That said, the reason why some of the frames sucks is simply because there is no need for their role in this game due to the lousiness of the enemies, in terms of AI and mechanics, when compared to the frames used by human players.

 

There is no need for their roles when the attack frames are the ones that shine.

 

Thus, why every form of request for balance from the community, that I have seen so far, seem to center around "damage" and not utility, crowd control, healing or anything else.

 

Therefore, my question is shouldn't we first improve the enemy before we do these balances?

 

What good are these balances when the enemies are so lackluster?

 

What happens after the balances are made and the enemies are made too difficult to deal with when we improve them?

Edited June 14, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[unmog]

That said, the reason why some of the frames sucks is simply because there is no need for their role in this game due to the lousiness of the enemies, in terms of AI and mechanics, when compared to the frames used by human players.

 

There is no need for their roles when the attack frames are the ones that shine.

 

Thus, why every form of request for balance from the community, that I have seen so far, seem to center around "damage" and not utility, crowd control, healing or anything else.

Plenty of people have asked for more balance in utility powers... look at Rhinos nerf. Everyone asks for Mags skills to be rebalanced and as you said most of her powers are utility based.

 

But again, I dont think there should be ANY frames that suck. Period >.> Its why people bring up the balancing to begin with, I think they'd disagree with ya there.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Plenty of people have asked for more balance in utility powers... look at Rhinos nerf. Everyone asks for Mags skills to be rebalanced and as you said most of her powers are utility based.

 

But again, I dont think there should be ANY frames that suck. Period >.> Its why people bring up the balancing to begin with, I think they'd disagree with ya there.

I too do not agree that any frame should suck in their role.

 

However, I simply disagree with the definition of suck being just low "damage".

 

If every frame is balance based only on damage then we are simply trying to make every frame an attack frame.

 

I mean seriously, nobody finds it wierd that all we care about is damage and kills?

 

Isn't this supposed to be a coop game with people taking on different roles and helping out each other by performing their roles?

 

Why is the supporter frame, healer frame or controller frame so concerned about damage?

Edited June 14, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Tsukinoki]

@OoKeNnEtHoO

But what is currently happening at the higher levels is that the attack frames are sucking because of their low ability damage, at those levels, and low utility skills. They could fix that by making damage scale and keep damage frames on par with utility frames at the higher levels.

I agree that frames should not be balanced around 'damage'. You do have to account for everything else that the frames can do. But when you compare a radial javelin cast to a bastille cast in T3 you see a *huge* difference in usability and effectiveness between a utility skill and damage skill. I've actually seen more usage out of radial blind than radial javelin.

DE does need to balance the frames out, and not just around damage, but part of doing that is balancing the usability of damage and utility skills at all levels of gameply.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

@OoKeNnEtHoO

But what is currently happening at the higher levels is that the attack frames are sucking because of their low ability damage, at those levels, and low utility skills. They could fix that by making damage scale and keep damage frames on par with utility frames at the higher levels.

I agree that frames should not be balanced around 'damage'. You do have to account for everything else that the frames can do. But when you compare a radial javelin cast to a bastille cast in T3 you see a *huge* difference in usability and effectiveness between a utility skill and damage skill. I've actually seen more usage out of radial blind than radial javelin.

DE does need to balance the frames out, and not just around damage, but part of doing that is balancing the usability of damage and utility skills at all levels of gameply.

The problem is, given a choice, most people will choose to use direct damage skills over utility skills.

If you can press 1 button and immediately do damage, would you press another button and make use of whatever that skill gives you (eg, stun) and then use your weapons to deal damage which may or may not exceed what the former can dish out in a given period of time?

If we use Slash Dash and Radial Blind as an example, on the lower levels, pressing 1 and doing a Slash Dash is definitely the best choice.

However, on higher levels, eg in T3, using a Radial Blind and stunning the enemies for 5 secs before quickly shooting them with you teammates is a better choice since a maxed out Slash Dash with maxed Focus and Continuity only deals half the HP damage to the basic Grineer soldier.

If we scale the damage of Slash Dash to make for eg, dish out the same % dmg to an enemy hp, people would definitely rather just press 1 and do the direct damage then go through the trouble of pressing 2 and aiming and shooting the stunned targets.

I actually own all the frames except Vauban so personally, I would of course want to support your idea of scaling the direct damage skills since that would indeed make me a lot stronger in higher levels but this will also mean that there is no longer any use for the utility skills since currently "damage is king" in the game due to the way the enemies function (bullet sponges and $&*&*#(%& AI).

Edited June 14, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Tsukinoki]

@OoKeNnEtHoO

The trick is to make it scale, but not scale as quickly as the utility abilities or weapons do. That way your better of using your utility abilities, but if you only have 25 energy you can Slash Dash and still do *something* to the target you hit.

It doesn't need to do the same % of damage to the higher levels as it deals to the lower levels, I just think it should have some scaling. Such as Radial Javelin deal 1.5-1.75K damage per javelin against a level 100 enemy as opposed to 1K against a level 50. Those numbers are complete BS but they might help in getting the point across.

[unmog]

The problem is, given a choice, most people will choose to use direct damage skills over utility skills.

Plenty of people love Loki... he doesnt have any direct damage skills.

I myself am a fan of Nyx for her ability to F*** with the enemies, good at all levels!

 

 

@OoKeNnEtHoO

The trick is to make it scale, but not scale as quickly as the utility abilities or weapons do. That way your better of using your utility abilities, but if you only have 25 energy you can Slash Dash and still do *something* to the target you hit.

It doesn't need to do the same % of damage to the higher levels as it deals to the lower levels, I just think it should have some scaling. Such as Radial Javelin deal 1.5-1.75K damage per javelin against a level 100 enemy as opposed to 1K against a level 50. Those numbers are complete BS but they might help in getting the point across.

If you want it to scale, wouldnt doing just a percentage of health damage be the ideal solution then? Wouldnt mind seeing a frame with an ability like that.

Edited June 14, 2013 by unmog

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

@OoKeNnEtHoO

The trick is to make it scale, but not scale as quickly as the utility abilities or weapons do. That way your better of using your utility abilities, but if you only have 25 energy you can Slash Dash and still do *something* to the target you hit.

It doesn't need to do the same % of damage to the higher levels as it deals to the lower levels, I just think it should have some scaling. Such as Radial Javelin deal 1.5-1.75K damage per javelin against a level 100 enemy as opposed to 1K against a level 50. Those numbers are complete BS but they might help in getting the point across.

 

Well, as I said earlier, I wouldn't mind it at all. In fact, I would be really happy.

 

However, I do hope that whoever in the development team that does the figures, if the idea is indeed taken, also consider some of the things that I have mentioned regarding how currently "damage is King".

[Tsukinoki]

@OoKeNnEtHoO

Oh, I completely agree with that. And I do think that damaging abilities are too powerful early on in the game, but then they become not so useful late game. DE does need to fix the AI and the bullet spongyness of enemies if they want to tackle it.

Its the common problem of "Linear warriors quadratic wizards". The damaging frames start off a lot stronger and more useful but when you reach end game its reversed. Its a hard things to balance around, but DE needs to find a better way to to it.

[unmog]

However, I do hope that whoever in the development team that does the figures, if the idea is indeed taken, also consider some of the things that I have mentioned regarding how currently "damage is King".

Blasphemy, Nyx is king! Or, queen, or president, it doesnt matter. :p

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Plenty of people love Loki... he doesnt have any direct damage skills.

I myself am a fan of Nyx for her ability to F*** with the enemies, good at all levels!

 

Yes, Loki, being completely made out of utility skills is indeed the greatest proof that utility skills tend to do a lot better at higher levels than lower ones.

 

Which may also be why he is said to be suited for advanced players since compared to the attack frames who mostly comprises direct damage skills, he loses out in the lower levels (also since the player does not have good weapons yet at the start) but start to shine in the higher levels (when all the direct attack skills begin to do badly)

[ZenekZezool]

Direct damage skills shine in the lower levels and age badly in the higher levels.

 

Crowd control and utility skills do not kill or damage enemies much but tend to shine in higher levels when the direct damage skills are almost useless.

 

This is how it has always been and there is nothing wrong with it.

 

You are supposed to be using all 4 of the skills if possible, not just 1 or 2.

 

This is also why I can never understand why people constantly call for nerfs on direct damage skills even though they are almost completely useless in the higher levels.

 

With the introduction of the Void and T3, it has now become more obvious but it has always been like that.

As you pointed out, the players should be able to use effectively all 4 skills throughout the whole mission. But as you also pointed out, dmg skills are only effective on low-level missions. Can't you see some inconsistency here? :)

 

I think the players really should have a realistic option (not an illusionary one) to use any skill use during high level mission. Now they seemed to be forced to use only the utility ones

[LazerusKI]

Miasma can still clean up the room at T3.

 

but: damage skilsl are not everything.

 

i also like to see Vaubans Bastille to CC a huge group of enemys.

Frosts Snow Globe to block the level 90 Fusion-Moa-Drone of Doom

Trinitys Link and Heal

Rhinos Stomp

etc etc.

damage is nice, but its not "the only thing you need"

Edited June 17, 2013 by LazerusKI

[Tsukinoki]

@LazerusKI

While damage is not the only thing you need, you need to think about the frames that have very sub-par utility skills and how useful they are in the endgame and the T3 missions. Without good utility skills a frame just isn't useful in the current endgame, which should not be the case. They should be able to have a viable tactic of using high damaging abilities and actually doing things to hurt the enemies and contribute to the team beyond gunplay.

They need to let the player have direct damage abilities that are still useful regardless of the frame they play and regardless of the level that they play at. Otherwise if they ever make a frame with all damaging abilities you'll see that frame rarely be used at the higher levels because of how direct damage really tapers off there. They need to make it *viable* for someone who wants an offensive caster frame to be able to use that style at the endgame.

While utility skills are nice and useful, they aren't the only thing either, nor should they be.

[Sumnus]

In a tower III void mission, damage abilities barely do anything even maxed with focus. It's all about guns, thus making anything that isn't utility pointless to have.

 

 

Anyone else think this?

 

 

scaling is a good point, and yeah overload will didnt do S#&$ in t3 but your electric shield will cover you, use speed to backup and get a better position

for the casterframes, yes the rely on ther guns but also not ever skill is useless

That reply made me lawl.  Confirms OP's statement while arguing against it.

Anyway. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but this could be a valid reason to implement ability mods. And I don't mean the ones that are equipped to Warframes that we have now, but actual mods for abilities. And I suppose, since abilities are in the card form themselves, they'd in turn be mods for mods, but eh. Could still be a thing.

[ZenekZezool]

Mods for mods - we need to go deeper... ;P

 

But hey, this sounds like a pretty interesting idea :)