Unattractive Mods: Combining Mods Suggestions

[Feam]

The team has had a big push with new mods to add more variety and customization. Things like the Resistance mods, the Zoom mods, Thief mod, and more.

I appreciate the concept of letting players with - and I semi-quote from stream - "spare mod slots and capacity" give themselves a bit more confidence against extremely rare occasions (Warm Coat as an example)

However, some of the mods are borderline useless. Other players might say: "So I'm just not going to use them". I say that there is no need to keep them like this, perform a quick funeral, and carry on.

"What are you talking about? How bad are these mods?" (Skip ahead if you know the answer!)

I'm glad you asked, you handsome devil.

• Warm Coat - at max level it costs 7 Mod Capacity to equip will give you a "12% Resistance to to shields in Ice levels". This can mean two things... either your shields are reduced by 38% instead of 50% in an event that hardly ever happens and you can never predict WILL happen, or they are reduced by.. 44% instead of 50%.

  That is awful.

• All Resistances Mods At max level you can use up a mod slot and 9 Capacity to get 12-18% Resistance to either: Laser damage, Ice damage, Fire Damage, Electric Damage, or Poison damage. This is an unnoticable reduction to a very specific damage type in every single one of these, and at a pretty large cost, too.
• Thief's Wit This is definitely not a horrible mod, but it isn't well optimized either. at its' max rank it can reach +30 Loot Radar for 7 Mod Capacity which covers ~66% of your minimap.

  It will only mark Containers and Resources that are already on the floor, Not modules and Green Lockers.

• Master Thief 40% Chance to unlock locked lockers, and yet many of the lockers in a map are Props that are not affected by this mod. It is a decent addition when doing nothing but farming, but it isn't a great mod to choose based on actual playstyle.

Suggestion #1: Combining Mods / Advanced Fusing

• Why not have a single Elemental Resistance to work for the player at all times? You will most likely not tackle more than 2 of the 5 presented in a single map anyway.
• Grandmaster Thief: Should people who enjoy being perfectionists or simply grabbing all the loot they possibly can have to use a Farming-specific Spec? I don't see why the two Thief mods can't be used in conjunction, even with more additions shown in the suggestions below! Higher capcity cost, more juice out of your mods.
• Warm Coat deserves its' own section, honestly.

Some of these mods should probably be combined as a courtesy... They are simply not good options for players.

Yet, Advanced Fusing is another idea that comes to mind.

How would you like to grab your Max-ranked "Thief's Wit", your Max-ranked "Master Thief", and a Forma --- to create a Rank 0 "Master Thief's Wit"?

This could easily work with plenty of different mods out there, and allow for an even more advanced way to progress your arsenal:

• Resistances + Forma = Elemental Resistance
• Shock Absorbers (Damage reduction when knocked down) + Handspring (Recover from Knockdown faster) + Forma = Shock Spring™
• The possibilities are endless!

Too unbalanced for certain mods? NO PROBLEM! Some combinations could even have PENALTIES.

• Do you like Health as much as you like Armor, but don't have room for both? Combine them to get a mod that can reach up to +55% armor and +220% Health! Both of these values are at 50% of their respective mod's maximum potential (110% armor and 440% health)
• Can work just the same for Shield Capacity + Shield Recharge, Stamina Capacity + Stamina Recharge, Health + Shields, etc.
• All combinations can be regulated with the use of Blueprints and the Foundry / Clantech systems, so that people will not mix 10 different mods together or create impossible combinations (Half Slashdash Half Iron Skin is a no-no)
• Using a combination of any 2 mods should deny you from using the pure mods themselves, or any other combination that involves them. (This way people can't use Vitality+Fiber, then Vitality, then Vitality+Shields to stack health or anything else really high.)

Advanced Fusing has a lot of potential, in theory!

More customization, More choice, More advancement and progression.

I plan to make more threads on the topic of unattractive mods (Freakin' Warm Coat + Environmental Hazards, more Thievery Discussions, and stuff!), but having them all together alongside this big suggestion is unnecessary. I will post links here.

Tell me what you think, I'm not psychic.

Large Edit #1: This is a post I made in this thread in response to MatrixEXO. It sums up the general direction that Advanced Fusing could take

(We heard you like mods so we put mods in your mods)

----To read the entire post, click the Redirect-button at the top right of the quote to jump to it---

...

...

Forma + Potatoes = saves Mod Capacity.

Advanced Fusing = saves Mod Slots.

Lastly, what I've been leaning towards the most:

ClanTech Advanced Fusing with very, very specific mods. I could even list them all right here:

• Thief's Wit + Enemy Sense
• Thief's Wit + Master Thief
• Insulation + Antitoxin + Diamond Skin + Flame Repellent + Lightning Rod
• Handspring + Shock Absorbers
• Acrobat + Marathon / Quick Rest? (debatable)

These would be the blueprints available for research in ClanTech.

Combining any of these mods would give you the FULL EFFECT OF ALL MODS FUSED TOGETHER

Whether the Mod Capacity it takes to equip them is increased or not is debatable.

It would cost a maxed out version of every mod needed (which means plenty of mods / cores + credits), a Forma, and maybe some Blue Resources (Ampules / Samples) so that they have a use outside of weaponry because EVERYONE picks them up after all.

None of these mods will become a MUST-HAVE, but they will still be an advancement players get to choose and work towards, and they would still ALL BECOME VIABLE MODS.

Future mods that aren't great by themselves could also enter this system, and even specific mods could be made for this system the way that "Acrobat" - a pretty bad mod - can be used to "Improve" your Marathon mod which is already a great mod.

Example: A mod that lets you maintain the speed boost from a SLIDE for a longer period.

On its own, not worth it.

Combined with RUSH Mod, and you just did some fancy-speedy-progression!

Small additions to Mod your Mods with. Oh god what have I begun?

Edited June 17, 2013 by Feam

[Vaskadar]

There were double effect mods back in the CB of this game's lifespan, some combined damage and fire rate for your weapons, or other effects.

[unmog]

Actually I was just thinking of making a post similar to this, thanks for beating me to it :p +1

[Depar]

i would be more for a main Mod sec mod system on the warframe

or 2 additional slots where ony "sec" statet mods fit

but i agree with op this mods are just to expensive to eq

i would rather go with puncture than with one of this

[liavalenth]

An interesting suggestion, and a good attempt to solve a problem, but I do not think that it would work well. First, because as you said,

...[*]The possibilities are endless!...

This is a major problem, because they have to code every possibility. That is not reasonable in my opinion, maybe I am wrong.

Second, while combining Master Thief and Thiefs Wit would be very good, combining most other things would either be OP or too weak to be useful. Combining all the Elemental Resistances would make the single resistance almost worth it, but the small percentage would still be too weak.

[Feam]

An interesting suggestion, and a good attempt to solve a problem, but I do not think that it would work well. First, because as you said,

This is a major problem, because they have to code every possibility. That is not reasonable in my opinion, maybe I am wrong.

Second, while combining Master Thief and Thiefs Wit would be very good, combining most other things would either be OP or too weak to be useful. Combining all the Elemental Resistances would make the single resistance almost worth it, but the small percentage would still be too weak.

Well, as I've said I have kept some things for later. I have other suggestions for Thief mods, and everyone are begging to buff resistances so there's no reason to make another post about that.

Additionally, I believe that the word "POSSIBILITY" stands for "something that is OPTIONAL".

I meant to show how this System could go on forever and in any direction DE chooses to take it, but it doesn't mean they have to take every single mod and slap it together with everything else.

There are very clear options that players would definitely want, and its a good place to start with.

Coding the punny names for every mod (Like "Shock Springs" or "Vital Fiber" etc) and adding new Card-Pictures to every Advanced Mod could possibly be just as hard as coding them, but it differs between games.

I never said that it is possible to just throw an equasion in that cuts every mod in half and attaches it to another half (I never said that it ISN'T possible either, who knows?), but hopefully it isn't some sort of a 10-terabyte-worth-of-code suggestion.

Worst case scenario, it is food for thought and we can get some buffs for certain mods.

[ReiganCross]

Yes!... Imagine a Damage + Multishot, Reload + Fire Rate, or the even more awesome, Fire + Ice! The possibility are sexy! But the potential for abuse is there... If you can, say, make a Health + Armor Mod, then set a Health Mod, then make a Health + Shield Mod, then make a Shield mod... You'd have a pretty OP frame beyond our capacity to control. Should they get around this, it would be awesome!

[Feam]

Yes!... Imagine a Damage + Multishot, Reload + Fire Rate, or the even more awesome, Fire + Ice! The possibility are sexy! But the potential for abuse is there... If you can, say, make a Health + Armor Mod, then set a Health Mod, then make a Health + Shield Mod, then make a Shield mod... You'd have a pretty OP frame beyond our capacity to control. Should they get around this, it would be awesome!

I really didn't make my opinion about such abuse clear, sorry.

Using a half-half mod should obviosly deny you from using any of the mods used to craft the advanced one! The point is to clear some modslots for you, not allow you to get +1000% health.

Not quite sure how easily such a restriction can be coded though (@liavalenth), things could get complex as it goes on.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Feam

[Excitonex]

This seems like an interesting system to build on the current mod system. I think it would definitely make people take a second look at some of the less useful that you listed. Hell, if done right DE wouldn't even have to fix melee mods.

[matrixEXO]

I doubt it will be done, given the current standings for mods and such. It would still be nice to have it, if possible, but no. Also, think of why the dual-function mods were not included into the mod changes.

 

Lastly, what happens if the compatibles are of differing polarities? How would the new polarity be decided?

Edited June 16, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Excitonex]

I doubt it will be done, given the current standings for mods and such. It would still be nice to have it, if possible, but no. Also, think of why the dual-function mods were not included into the mod changes.

 

Lastly, what happens if the compatibles are of differing polarities? How would the new polarity be decided?

It would make sense if you could only combine mods of the same polarities. Though I think if this is implemented we'll see some sort of BP to regulate which mods can combine with each other. This way I don't fuse a multishot mod with every other mod and have like 500% multishot.

[matrixEXO]

It would make sense if you could only combine mods of the same polarities. Though I think if this is implemented we'll see some sort of BP to regulate which mods can combine with each other. This way I don't fuse a multishot mod with every other mod and have like 500% multishot.

Multishot + Damage mod is already gonna be OP anyway. What difference does it make if you get about that much after that?

[ReiganCross]

Multishot + Damage mod is already gonna be OP anyway. What difference does it make if you get about that much after that?

Not really OP if you cut the effectiveness by half... In that case, it would be much more effective to have separate mods so you can have max power from them. This is to sort out those more useless mods that doesn't sound that much important, like Ice mods that are not really about damage, but just about freezing stuff.

[Grandarex]

Short answer: Yes, I massively support this notion. But I do not think that DE are diligent enough to implement this MASSIVE feature. 

 

Love the idea. But it would be a mistake to expect it in a near future.

[Feam]

Multishot + Damage mod is already gonna be OP anyway. What difference does it make if you get about that much after that?

If it is at all possible to read the entire thread and miss the point of "The effect is cut in half for most mods, so it would be a very bad idea to use this on mods that you want to get the most out of.", I apologize.

If it isn't, there really is no point in posting in threads you don't read.

While it isn't clear which mods should really be able to COMBINE to get the most out of both (which possibly means that will never ever happen even if it is a lot more logical than to cut 2 bad mods in half to make 1 worse mod),

I will never suggest the ability to have 440% Shields and 440% Health in the same mod slot for the same Mod Capacity.

Yet having Loot Radar and Locker opening, or 2 different Knockdown-related effects in one, is perfectly reasonable.

[matrixEXO]

Not really OP if you cut the effectiveness by half... In that case, it would be much more effective to have separate mods so you can have max power from them. This is to sort out those more useless mods that doesn't sound that much important, like Ice mods that are not really about damage, but just about freezing stuff.

Well, I thought it was just an idea of yours that you pitched in but not sure if it were to even be applied as a good countermeasure. My bad. Also, what happens when someone wants to equip both the uncombined and combined mods together? Would they be restricted?

 

If they are restricted (and given that the mod points are "saved up" when you used combined mods), I would see this as a very bad suggestion given that I could just use all my mods at a better functional value as well as Forma my weapons and armor to get back even more mod points for further mod usages. Sure, having a Reload + Fire Rate mod would be great but individually would be always better and there really isn't a reason to have them with Forma around to fix the cost.

 

I see this as an attractive system that just looks attractive but is functionally inadequate. If a AP + Ice mod where to be used where the mod point cost is half the total point cost of the two mods together, I would still use AP and Ice mods separately since Forma can solve the cost issue for me. Sure, having both on at the cost of half the value is much better since you just save 1 slot but I always managed to fit all 6 damage mods onto my weapons without a hitch if I have 1 or 2 polarity slots that aids me on it.

 

If the mods can be used together, it would make the system broken since it makes it OP since combining 2 similar-functioning mods together would essentially make it over the restricted limit (90% Multishot + 45% Multishot for rifles).

 

 

If you can solve this issue of power balance, then it would be a great addition to the game. Until then, power balance would either be broken or still lean towards the old system.

 

 

EDIT: After re-accessing the situation on restricted mod usages said above, I have thought of it as a good idea for non-potatoed weapons and frames. But since one will eventually come across a potato to ram into their favorite weapon or frame, this system can and will be beaten out by the old non-combine system.

Edited June 17, 2013 by matrixEXO

[unmog]

I really didn't make my opinion about such abuse clear, sorry.

Using a half-half mod should obviosly deny you from using any of the mods used to craft the advanced one! The point is to clear some modslots for you, not allow you to get +1000% health.

Not quite sure how easily such a restriction can be coded though (@liavalenth), things could get complex as it goes on.

Actually the point of customization would mean we should be able to do things like that. Do you know how hard it is to max a health or shield mod? I still havent done it :p

[Liminal]

I personally don't like the idea of fusing mod effects yourself, but I agree some effects should be grouped in single mods. The loot tables are pretty damn cluttered already :/

 

Btw I don't understand how anybody could ever consider Warm Coat useful. What I really hate about it is that it implies the devs will leave the ice hazard as it is.

[Feam]

I could just use all my mods at a better functional value as well as Forma my weapons and armor to get back even more mod points for further mod usages. Sure, having a Reload + Fire Rate mod would be great but individually would be always better and there really isn't a reason to have them with Forma around to fix the cost.

 

I see this as an attractive system that just looks attractive but is functionally inadequate.

 

If the mods can be used together, it would make the system broken since it makes it OP since combining 2 similar-functioning mods together would essentially make it over the restricted limit (90% Multishot + 45% Multishot for rifles).

 

If you can solve this issue of power balance, then it would be a great addition to the game. Until then, power balance would either be broken or still lean towards the old system.

 

EDIT: After re-accessing the situation on restricted mod usages said above, I have thought of it as a good idea for non-potatoed weapons and frames. But since one will eventually come across a potato to ram into their favorite weapon or frame, this system can and will be beaten out by the old non-combine system.

You raise a lot of great concerns, thanks.

I'll admit that suggestion is well beyond fleshed out. The core concept of "Actually fusing mods to work with eachother instead of eat eachother" was always in mind,

and the concept of: "Some mods are horrible and have really close relationship with others, and they should be the same mod because nobody has slots for both" Was the motive when writing this thread.

the Half-half mods were somewhat of an after-thought, for all I care it could be thrown in the trash completely. I still think that the single example used, 55% armor + 220% health, isn't underpowered or overpowered. it really is just slot preservation and choice, but a very expensive choice.

Here's where I sum this up

The second part of this suggestion can only be decided when DE choose where they want PROGRESSION to go.

• Do they want to give people the ability to be "Overpowered"? It is a PvE game, and in most of them, that is the POINT. (read: Borderlands1&2, Killing Floor, etc)

If so, letting people spend A LOT of resources to get MORE AND MORE AND MORE mods in, and become level-150-mobs-worthy GODS, is reasonable.

• Otherwise, does DE want to "Nerf all of the Despair and Supra and crazyness so that all weapons are close-together in quality but different in usage"?

Then the system of half-half still is inadequate. What would you want it to be? 75%+75% of both mods? In some situations it would be PERFECT, in others it would be dumb, and in others it would be very strong.

Bear in mind that it would still restrict you from having 2 different mods that add Multishot on your weapon, so if you put it on a 75% combo to SAVE MODSLOTS FOR OTHER STUFF, you only weaken your gun. it is a very specific system.

Forma + Potatoes = they save Mod Capacity.

Advanced Fusing = saves Mod Slots.

Lastly, what I've been leaning towards the most:

ClanTech Advanced Fusing with very, very specific mods. I could even list them all right here:

• Thief's Wit + Enemy Sense
• Thief's Wit + Master Thief
• Insulation + Antitoxin + Diamond Skin + Flame Repellent + Lightning Rod
• Handspring + Shock Absorbers
• Acrobat + Marathon / Quick Rest? (debatable)

These would be the blueprints available for research in ClanTech.

Combining any of these mods would give you the FULL EFFECT OF ALL MODS FUSED TOGETHER

Whether the Mod Capacity it takes to equip them is increased or not is debatable.

It would cost a maxed out version of every mod needed (which means plenty of mods / cores + credits), a Forma, and maybe some Blue Resources (Ampules / Samples) so that they have a use outside of weaponry because EVERYONE picks them up after all.

None of these mods will become a MUST-HAVE, but they will still be an advancement players get to choose and work towards, and they would still ALL BECOME VIABLE MODS.

Future mods that aren't great by themselves could also enter this system, and even specific mods could be made for this system the way that "Acrobat" - a pretty bad mod - can be used to "Improve" your Marathon mod which is already a great mod.

Example: A mod that lets you maintain the speed boost from a SLIDE for a longer period.

On its own, not worth it.

Combined with RUSH Mod, and you just did some fancy-speedy-progression!

Small additions to Mod your Mods with. Oh god what have I begun?

Edited June 17, 2013 by Feam

[unmog]

Future mods that aren't great by themselves could also enter this system, and even specific mods could be made for this system the way that "Acrobat" - a pretty bad mod - can be used to "Improve" your Marathon mod which is already a great mod.

Actually I dont have an acrobat mod, but I think it's probably better than marathon, since marathon just gives you more stamina... which means its thats much more stamina you need to rest and recover. With acrobat youd get essentially the same effect as marathon, but need to rest less.

 

Still, they're both fairly pointless, since all you really need is a 60-90% quick rest mod to basically recover all of your stamina anyway in a slide.

[Feam]

Actually I dont have an acrobat mod, but I think it's probably better than marathon, since marathon just gives you more stamina... which means its thats much more stamina you need to rest and recover. With acrobat youd get essentially the same effect as marathon, but need to rest less.

 

Still, they're both fairly pointless, since all you really need is a 60-90% quick rest mod to basically recover all of your stamina anyway in a slide.

Quite incorrect about Acrobat.

The only effect it does is reduce the cost of wallruns by 10-60%

That is very specific, very side-moddish.

Personally, I use a 125% Marathon. I haven't tried quick rest yet, but I just like running long distances so I perfer using that one.

Acrobat is nowhere near these two mods in functionality.

However, I will add a "Quick Rest + Acrobat" to the list, for those who perfer it.

[LazerusKI]

sounds interesting.

advanced mod fusing for similar mods? mhh could work with the new forma.

[matrixEXO]

-snip-

I can see where this is going now. A good addition for those non-essential mods (although I could argue about Thief's Wit and Enemy Sense, haven't gotten Master Thief to add to my collection of loot-runs though), though I would rather see them get buffed than have to resort to this situation. As for the Utility mods (Thief's Wit, Enemy Sense, Master Thief), they are fine as is given that it probes the question of "Do I want to see them on the radar and make killing/looting/accessing stuffs much easier?". And the Artifact slot can always be used for better things (Rejuvenation, Energy Siphon).

Edited June 17, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Feam]

I can see where this is going now. A good addition for those non-essential mods (although I could argue about Thief's Wit and Enemy Sense, haven't gotten Master Thief to add to my collection of loot-runs though), though I would rather see them get buffed than have to resort to this situation. As for the Utility mods (Thief's Wit, Enemy Sense, Master Thief), they are fine as is given that it probes the question of "Do I want to see them on the radar and make killing/looting/accessing stuffs much easier?". And the Artifact slot can always be used for better things (Rejuvenation, Energy Siphon).

While I do hope some of these get buffed as a simpler alternative to this entire fiasco, I am also trying to think about longevity.

The team has already mentioned that they have some creative mods in mind, like "Sanctuary". Things that are not necessarily stat based, and add more flavor to the game.

While guns are doing alright Mod Slot wise, Warframes are getting crowded. Sure, to use up your entire capacity you might need a potato and a bunch of Formas so it isn't an issue until end-game, but I'm just trying to think of a... safety net for certain mods.

I have several buffs in mind for mods like Thief's Wit and Master Thief (Though I still think they should be one mod), just takes a while to form such threads and post them.

Threads like this one may have to go stale as the game continues, and I'm okay with that. We need to see where DE is going before we can think up such revamps - for all I know all of the issues mentioned here could already be solved in Steve and Scott's heads (As in, they have better solutions.)

Still, it is food for thought, and there is nothing wrong with a bit of theorizing and overthinking ^^.