Ash Smokebomb - Loki Invisibility

[Eddy0815]

Heyho everyone - first i want to make one thing clear: this ist NOT a flamepost and hell, this is not a "omg plz nerf dat"-post. i just want to give out my thoughts and want to help by givin out my feedback to these two abilitys.

 

so if you want to rage - i cant stop you from it but please dont get personal.

 

good. after this statement, lets look at both abilitys.

 

First smokebomb:

 

• Invisibility usable duration of 2 / 2 / 4 / 6 seconds with a half second cast time. Increased by Power Duration (Continuity).
• Cost to equip of 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 which is then halved by the Polarity slot, rounded up.
• Staggers enemies once for 1 second within a radius of 10 in-game metres (estimated). Increased by Power Range (Stretch).
• Melee attacks hit for 50% extra damage while invisible (yellow numbers) and charge attacks for 100% extra damage. These attacks can critically hit (red numbers). However, Organ Shatter does not affect yellow hits, only red critical hits.
• Ash can be knocked down or staggered during both the cast animation and invisibility.
• Can be used while sliding and clinging to a wall but not in mid-jump, wall jump or forward flip

 

and 2nd: Invisibility:

 

• Invisibility lasts 5 / 7 / 9 / 12 seconds. This can be increased by Power Duration (Continuity).
• Cost to equip of 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 which is then halved by the Polarity slot, rounded up.
• Hides you from security cameras, allowing you to bypass Corpus security systems.
• You can still be staggered/knocked down, even by laser doors, or hurt by poison.
• While invisible your melee attacks deal 150% damage with normal attacks and 200% damage with charged attacks (yellow numbers). Critical strikes also receive this bonus (red numbers). Take note that this ability doesn't make you deal constant critical strikes, just boosts your damage.
• Invisibility does not make Shade, Wyrm, or DethCube invisible.

 

okay. now lets look at the differences between the two abilitys, its advantages and its flaws.

1. Time

as you can see, the invisibility of Loki is 6 seconds longer active as the smoke bomb of Ash, when fully fused.

that means Loki has way more time for attacking while invisible, and is way longer able to deal high damage in meele combat. its way more time to escape dire situations, and gives Loki way more time to get unseen to save positions and killing enemys in stealth.

2. Cost (Buildpoints for Modding)

Its exacly the same. so here we got a draw, here.

3. Engery cost

Ashs Smokebomb costs 35 Energy, while Lokis Invisibility costs 50 energy. so Ashs Smokebomb is a little superior here. But in efficency, its the same since smokebomb can be used (without flow and steamline, frame level 30) 4 times by 150 energy of ash and Invisibility 4 times since loki got 225 energy. so calculated in efficency, its the same again. And when we calculate Flow and Steamline in, In fact - Lokis Invisibility can be used more often because of a larger energy resource and reduced costs.

4. special properties

both abilitys hide the Warframe from Security Cameras, while Invisibility doesnt hide the Sentinel, what can make sneaking around a little harder as for ash. Plus, ashs Smokebomb got a 1 second stragger in a 10 meter radius what even works on bosses, and when timed correctly grants him immunity to beatdowns like the stomping-Moas or some boss-powers, saving him from hurtful straggers and beatdowns. Also, Ashs Smokebomb is far more mobile since it can be used while sliding and while clinging to a wall, other than loki who has to has to stand on the ground to use invisibility. so in special properties, Ashs smokebomb is far superior.

5. damage-output.

Here Loki clearly stands out. Since Loki and Ash stay both invisible while attacking, and Lokis Damageoutput is double the Damage of Ash, he clearly is capable of dealing brutal damage for a longer time than Ash. Also, As far as i know, Organ shatter doesnt work with both abilitys, only on the red "supercrits" with both combatants. So here at least, the ability of both are the same.

 

What we learn out of that:

As much as it hurts me to say it as a proud Ash player: Lokis Invisibility is Superior to Ashs Smokebomb. Ashs Smokebomb has a little additional CC, and is more flexible trough a broader field of use and more mobile usable skills (like stated in Point 4), Lokis Damageoutput, Time Duration and the amout of times Invisibility can be used, are far bigger than my beloved Smokebomb. Just look at the numbers - its a fact.

 

What should be done now?:

well - i will NOT say nerf Invisibility, nor will i yell push Smoke bomb. I Just want to state something:

As seen in the new PS4 trailer, the background of Ash and the playstyle of Ash himself - Ash specialises in Meele combat. The Sword is his weapon, and he feels at home when he can feel the breath of his enemys on his skin. Thats where Ash feels good - and thats why i love my little Antface. Only look at his initial Name from his Concept: "Ninja".

 

Loki in the other hand - is a trickster. he decieves the enemys, sets up traps and uses the abilitys of his buddys to his advantage with his high intellect, overviewing the battlefield and supporting from the lower ranks, sneaking to places behind the enemys and falling into their back.

 

maybe - just maybe - you should focus more on the fact that Ash shines in Meele battle, and Loki is more of a trickster. I am aware that our little Hammerhead NEEDS a possible way to deal damage. but please: Dont take the only thing Ash shines at, give it to another frame and say "hey - look. he is better than you - who actually is created for that concept."

 

thats all?

yep - thats all. i just wanted to talk that off my heart, since it was pretty devastating to see how i need 6 - 8 Chargehits with a potatioed, 3 times formated fully teched DHS on a lvl 80 Ancient and a Loki with a not formated potatoed DHS only needs 3 or 4 hits.

so please DE - Dont take away the only thing away from me where i am good at : smashing my enemys faces with a sword.

 

dats all folks, have a nice day =)

let the flamewars begin!

 

da Eddy

[wkfire]

The main reason for Invisibility > Smokebomb, i guess, is that Loki doesn't have any direct damaging skills, but Ash has. 

 

You are only comparing one similar skill of each frame but not the frames as a whole. When you see the bigger picture, you will understand why Ash is good enough even with Loki's invisibility being more superior than Ash's smokebomb. 

 

Oh and I still prefer Ash to Loki in terms of stealth, fun or anything. 

Edited June 17, 2013 by wkfire

[Numot]

Smoke bomb is better suited for defensive purposes, while invisibility is an offensive skill.

[ra9una]

Maybe I'm totally- no, forget it, I am totally bias being a huge Loki fan. But being as objective as I can be, Ash has two direct damage skills, one utility skill and smoke bomb which doubles as both. Were as Loki has.....four utility skills, were invisibility doubles as damage...(And RD if you really want to stretch the meaning of damage). But that's ultimately irrelevant, comparing classes and all that, what's important is that you do what you do well, and Ash's smoke bomb work great, sure, lasts a fairly short period of time, but combined with the stagger and the slightly better spam-ability of it it's a very nice skill. Another thing to note is that Ash is FAR more sturdy and can stay alive much easier in the midst of a melee throw down than loki, Here's a quick example, max shield/health mods: LOKI- 555/555 Ash- 740/1110....yeah

 

Now I think that was a fairly calm and reasoned argument, now for my obligatory rage line: boy you tripin'........that's in my contract as being on the forum. My impute is, well, DE hasn't taken anything away from ash, he works the same as he always has and ultimately is still better than loki for melee....Just my two cents.

 

P.S. I love loki and I'm playing ash now, and almost like it more because of the stagger, and it's not even maxed, I think it's cool that the two skills work a little differently.

[Hybridon]

Ash and Loki deal the same amount of damage invisible...

 

Ash deals 150% and 200%, same with Loki.

 

If we consider a normal attack being 100%... Ash deals extra 50%, meaning straight out 150%, same as Loki, that when is invisible deals 150% damage.

 

Again, considering AShs charged attack 100%, he deals and extra 100%, total 200% on charged attacks when invisible, while Loki deals the same 200% on charged attacks.

 

The way they are written leads us to thinking Loki deals more damage, but he doesnt.

 

Just clearing that out. :)

[ra9una]

Ash and Loki deal the same amount of damage invisible...

 

Ash deals 150% and 200%, same with Loki.

 

If we consider a normal attack being 100%... Ash deals extra 50%, meaning straight out 150%, same as Loki, that when is invisible deals 150% damage.

 

Again, considering AShs charged attack 100%, he deals and extra 100%, total 200% on charged attacks when invisible, while Loki deals the same 200% on charged attacks.

 

The way they are written leads us to thinking Loki deals more damage, but he doesnt.

 

Just clearing that out. :)

I think he means more damage since it lasts longer. But thanks for clarifying. 

[Eddy0815]

huh, didnt thought i get so many replys that fast^^ okay, let me answer that ^^

 

look guys: as i wrote above : i didnt yell "omg plz nerf trololol". Invisibility is a fine skill, really. it actually is well blanced, it has its flaws and its advantages.

 

... maybe i posted that a bit to fast without thinking trough cuz of that "O_o dafuq did that loki just hand my meelefighter-&#! to me???" - feeling, but let me try to explain:

 

I think Invisibility is a little ... "out of the picture". it doesnt fit the Trickster image Loki has. dont get me wrong, i like Loki too. and as i said Invisibility is a fine skill ... but maybe a passive bonus on Invisibility of ... lets say 400% or 600% damage on the next hit, reducing the energycost a little, so he can use invisibility even longer, increase the time invisibility lasts... so he gets one, massive facemelting blow, and then vanishes again.

 

could be that is my personal preference - but that would actually work much better with his trickster image.

[R3leaZ]

huh, didnt thought i get so many replys that fast^^ okay, let me answer that ^^

 

look guys: as i wrote above : i didnt yell "omg plz nerf trololol". Invisibility is a fine skill, really. it actually is well blanced, it has its flaws and its advantages.

 

... maybe i posted that a bit to fast without thinking trough cuz of that "O_o dafuq did that loki just hand my meelefighter-&#! to me???" - feeling, but let me try to explain:

 

I think Invisibility is a little ... "out of the picture". it doesnt fit the Trickster image Loki has. dont get me wrong, i like Loki too. and as i said Invisibility is a fine skill ... but maybe a passive bonus on Invisibility of ... lets say 400% or 600% damage on the next hit, reducing the energycost a little, so he can use invisibility even longer, increase the time invisibility lasts... so he gets one, massive facemelting blow, and then vanishes again.

 

could be that is my personal preference - but that would actually work much better with his trickster image.

Consider also the fact that Ash is A LOT more durable than Loki. EDIT: Loki has pathetic Health, Shield capacity, Shield regen rate and armor...

 

Invisibility for Loki like someone said lasts longer and is made for offensive use while Smokebomb is more of a defensive move while it is balanced with good offensive abilities on Ash. And also both crit the same amount of damage. Did you even try it out yourself? Currently the wiki just has it written down so it is easily misunderstood.

 

And I actually think the opposite of you. Invisibility due to it's offensive use is a very good trickster ability to induce fear on your opponents from getting attacked from the shadows. (In concept that is)

Edited June 17, 2013 by R3leaZ

[Eddy0815]

Consider also the fact that Ash is A LOT more durable than Loki. EDIT: Loki has pathetic Health, Shield capacity, Shield regen rate and armor...

 

Invisibility for Loki like someone said lasts longer and is made for offensive use while Smokebomb is more of a defensive move while it is balanced with good offensive abilities on Ash. And also both crit the same amount of damage. Did you even try it out yourself? Currently the wiki just has it written down so it is easily misunderstood.

 

And I actually think the opposite of you. Invisibility due to it's offensive use is a very good trickster ability to induce fear on your opponents from getting attacked from the shadows. (In concept that is)

 

well, as a matter of fact, i have to admit that i only played loki a few times on the account of my brother. i liked loki trough, but i havent "felt" the maxed out invisibility with a maxed out weapon. As for ash - yeah i tried it out. a lot, and i tend to say that i actually know how much he crits. i only hat these shocking encoutners with some lokiplayers, and after readling the stats in the wiki, i was kinda surprised that Invisibility was that good.

 

i admit - i probably overreacted. now that my head cooled a little off - it was a little fast to just smash this post into the forum without gathering enough information to get a reasonable post - maybe if i would have taken more time to gather all the data, the mistake would have came to my head myself. so - my bad. i am sorry x3

 

and well - tastes differ. i think its not that "tricky" , you think it is. well, its hard to please every player. i trust the Devs of DE, actually, i think they are far the best devs in a long time, actually considering the opinions of their players into their choises, and so on. i just wanted to throw out the idea of a "tricky" move, fitting for a Frame like Loki.

 

who knows? maybe steve reads just in this moment this posts, and reads my statement of a "tricky move" and thinks "hey, maybe this is a nice ability for another warframe?" who knows =)

 

so to sum it up:

i made a mistake. i was stupid. i am sorry. even trough i didnt want to rage, i think i still raged a bit cuz i didnt think enough. ashes on my head. x3

[Cryp2Nite]

...i tried it out. a lot, and i tend to say that i actually know how much he crits.

How much you crit depends on your weapon, mod layout and the RNG gods. It has absolutly nothing to do with "Invisibility" or "Smoke Screen". I just want to clarify, because i see this type of misinformation so often on these boards.

 

ALL invisibility mechanics in this game grant a 50% BONUS damage to normal, and 100% to charged melee attacks.

You DON'T crit at a 100% rate while invisible. There is NO difference in terms of damage between Invisibility and  Smoke Screen.

 

Sorry for Offtopic, but you can not repeat that often enough.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Cryp2Nite

[Klazik]

How much you crit depends on your weapon, mod layout and the RNG gods. It has absolutly nothing to do with "Invisibility" or "Smoke Screen". I just want to clarify, because i see this type of misinformation so often on these boards.

 

ALL invisibility mechanics in this game grant a 50% BONUS damage to normal, and 100% to charged melee attacks.

You DON'T crit at a 100% rate while invisible. There is NO difference in terms of damage between Invisibility and  Smoke Screen.

 

Sorry for Offtopic, but you can not repeat that often enough.

Give this dude a sandwich!

[mogamu]

Consider also the fact that Ash is A LOT more durable than Loki. EDIT: Loki has pathetic Health, Shield capacity, Shield regen rate and armor...

 

 

 

^This

Loki is my favorite Frame, And I have found that modding him to stay invisible longer is better than most of the defensive mods for him.

I use Ash when Loki is feeling a bit fragile on a specific type of mission.

[Cryp2Nite]

Give this dude a sandwich!

Thanks man, I am starving!

[JusticeJack]

As a loki main i disagree (big shock,eh?).

Ash is way tankier than loki, and can take abuse way better in melee brawl.
His smokebomb is good for the reasons you pointed out, it's bad for the reason you envy loki's invisibility.They are similar,but not to be "on pair".
Loki invis cost more (and yes,while you can spam 4 invis and 4 smoke, that's IF you are at full power,wich is not always possibile, and to be honest that's why loki is and should stay the best stealth-kill warframe,since unmodded invis is costly,especially in desperate times, and it doesn't stagger enemies,AND i doesn't protect you from beatdown and runners suicide)
Ash is a ninja, Loki is more of a space jester with a bad habit to kill you,
You should use smokebomb when discovered to destroy everyone in the room,like a poor man blade storm,while invis is a tool for going around undetected AND the only (i repeat, THE ONLY) way for loki to solo fight bosses and tough enemies, but when the mobs are ganging upon you,invis can't save you most of the time, much like a "prank" gone wrong, wich is in loki style. (prank around,or fail hard when the prank goes bad)
I don't see problems here.

[Makeshift]

Sry i havent played long enough to know the frames inside and out. but the one thing i dont get is how someone can say his invisibility doesnt match a "trickster" persona. if u look at it from the enemy standpoint. he litterally poses for the camera, then vanishes right before their eyes. no "smoke" and mirrors either. its like a magic trick. enphasis on "trick".

 

the only thing that could match a trickster more then what he has now would be making them shoot each other or giving him a disguise skill. disguise would function the same way as invisibility tho, and the first one is already on a different frame.

 

 

[Oleker]

As a loki main i disagree (big shock,eh?).

Ash is way tankier than loki, and can take abuse way better in melee brawl.

His smokebomb is good for the reasons you pointed out, it's bad for the reason you envy loki's invisibility.They are similar,but not to be "on pair".

Loki invis cost more (and yes,while you can spam 4 invis and 4 smoke, that's IF you are at full power,wich is not always possibile, and to be honest that's why loki is and should stay the best stealth-kill warframe,since unmodded invis is costly,especially in desperate times, and it doesn't stagger enemies,AND i doesn't protect you from beatdown and runners suicide)

Ash is a ninja, Loki is more of a space jester with a bad habit to kill you,

You should use smokebomb when discovered to destroy everyone in the room,like a poor man blade storm,while invis is a tool for going around undetected AND the only (i repeat, THE ONLY) way for loki to solo fight bosses and tough enemies, but when the mobs are ganging upon you,invis can't save you most of the time, much like a "prank" gone wrong, wich is in loki style. (prank around,or fail hard when the prank goes bad)

I don't see problems here.

 

Not an awser or discussion, just a commentary as a Loki main too. To solo bosses i found my self using decoy and switch teleport to a high place that most bosses can't go, and shoot freely without being harmed.

[JusticeJack]

Not an awser or discussion, just a commentary as a Loki main too. To solo bosses i found my self using decoy and switch teleport to a high place that most bosses can't go, and shoot freely without being harmed.

That's a good strategy too.

Don't you run out of ammo?Obviously i don't know, because i always short range weaponry,sorry if the question is dumb.