Help Small Clans Add A Member Cap

[me2pl]

i work with a small clan, TheOffBrand, with only 9 members, 3 or 4 of which don't play . . . ever really. the point of this clan was to work together WITH FRIENDS WE KNOW PERSONALLY to gain the benefits of the dojo and the ability to chat together and see who is online. we currently have managed to make one hallway in the dojo after more than a month of work, i honestly lost track of how long it took. the boring and monotonous grind became the status quo, and i honestly stopped playing because of it.

 

first off, i made a post about the unfairness of the dojo a few months back, and the only viable answer was to merge with other small clans.

 

that answer sucked and i hate it because i know all the people in my clan and merging would defeat the purpose of the clan

 

i came up with a great solution for the devs, and my friends agree: Population Caps

when a clan is made, make the master choose from a variety of choices as to the MAXIMUM capacity of their clan, and set the material needs based on that number. this helps the small clans while making sure that the big ones have need of every member. please give your support or criticism to this thought and maybe we can swing the devs' opinions.

Edited June 17, 2013 by me2pl

[Mickey1779]

DE_Steve posted this on May 30th

 

CLANS/DOJO-GATE

CLAN SIZE: We're currently thinking of these tiers: Shadow Clan (30 limit), River Clan (100 limit), Mountain Clan (500 limit), Moon Clan (2000 limit). Existing massive clans will likely grandfathered in but there may be upkeep friction for those really crazy sized ones. We will avoid forced splits though. Starting a clan will take some resources. Jumping between clans will be slow to reduce exploits. We need these limits to help bring sanity to database, networking and balance equations. Stay tuned, as we're still working out the details.

CONSTRUCTION COSTS: Sorry about how this turned out, slapping "Alpha" on it was not enough. Soon the size of your clan will affect the crafting costs (duh). To grow a Shadow Clan to a River Clan (and beyond) will require building a new structure to increase the capacity. Connector pieces will be adjusted in cost. Large clans will not feel a ton of difference. It will make all the difference for small ones. This will not be a linear curve, larger group of more active players will be able to build faster but it won't be such a ridiculous gap.

 

 

Unfortunately the PS4 announcement and E3 came along and delayed the implementation.  Hopefully we will see this this week.

 

Edit:  You can read the entire post here...https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/55421-update-8-related-work/

Edited June 17, 2013 by Mickey1779

[me2pl]

ahh, i must have missed that. any clue as to whenthis will be in effect?

[Mickey1779]

No date yet.

 

From recent forum threads I gather most small to medium sized clans have stopped all Dojo construction because of the costs and the announced changes.

 

DE no doubt wants to get this fixed ASAP.

[Luckyfer]

[x] vote for an additional clan size smaller than 30.

about 4 or 8.

[Thevgm]

I have been thinking that you could just scale the resources needed with the number of people in the clan without any other hassle, but the tier thing looks OK too.

[chanw4]

I have been thinking that you could just scale the resources needed with the number of people in the clan without any other hassle, but the tier thing looks OK too.

 

could be exploit which also could be prevent by adding a time constraint to the scaling down.

[MentalMayhem]

Our clan has only 3 members. We play every day when we can fit it in.

We've all known each other (in person) and gamed together for 5+ years.

If we were a T-shirt we would read, "Does not play well with others".

That is mainly because we know each others' play style and work well together.

I am not totally opposed to playing with strangers, but it's not my preference.

I understand where you are coming from OP.

We, unfortunately, are still struggling to build our first connector hall! :(

[Luckyfer]

Our clan has only 3 members. We play every day when we can fit it in.

We've all known each other (in person) and gamed together for 5+ years.

If we were a T-shirt we would read, "Does not play well with others".

That is mainly because we know each others' play style and work well together.

I am not totally opposed to playing with strangers, but it's not my preference.

I understand where you are coming from OP.

We, unfortunately, are still struggling to build our first connector hall! :(

 

exactly the same for us, we may have found a 4th person now, though.

but growing more, is actually something we really don't wanna do

[Ced23Ric]

In all fairness, while clans of about a dozen people do exists, arguments for clans consisting of 3 members are hard to make. I am not saying you guys are invalid, but you will have to admit that you are a stark minority. Of course there will be some adaption to clan sizes, and yeah will get more agreeable terms, but expecting DE to address clan size below what the metrics show as the 90% of clans covered or so is making it difficult. :(

 

Nevertheless, I do understand your plight. Wishing you best of luck and amendment to the resources soon.

[MentalMayhem]

In all fairness, while clans of about a dozen people do exists, arguments for clans consisting of 3 members are hard to make. I am not saying you guys are invalid, but you will have to admit that you are a stark minority. Of course there will be some adaption to clan sizes, and yeah will get more agreeable terms, but expecting DE to address clan size below what the metrics show as the 90% of clans covered or so is making it difficult. :(

 

Nevertheless, I do understand your plight. Wishing you best of luck and amendment to the resources soon.

 

I totally understand where you are coming from as well.

I've even wondered if small clans like us and Luckyfer's clan would do better to have a, for lack of a better word, "silent partnership" where we merged but continued the way we have been. Not sure how that would work as one or both would have to give up their current, barely-built dojo. Even that still defeats our goals. Not to mention all the hard earned resources we have poured into our dojo's would be lost. 

 

Originally, we felt no need to publicly declare our clan until all of this came out and the thought of having our own space and being able to research and possibly duel became a very attractive idea. Now we just feel stuck and kind of disappointed that what we thought we might have is most likely unattainable at this point in time. 

 

I'm sure no one expects special treatment, (well, there's always that one guy out there that will) but seems most just want to be able have fun with these new options. I know the DEVs know this too and are doing their best.

 

Thanks for all the hard work that you do and have done! 

We'll just keep our hopes up that a solution will soon be forthcoming and continue to do the best we can with what we've got! :)

[Maverick10069]

This is almost forcing members of smaller clans to quit and join larger clans or be left behind! Which would leave the game very unbalanced!

which is one thing DE does not want as we all know, but when members of larger clans are already able to research all kinds of weaponry and stuff not normally available what other option is there? maybe the best option to look at rather than Dojo costs for smaller clans to forgo the Dojo completely and have another option for small clans and solo players to be able to research? and restrict it so if the clan gets larger than the limit you would then be required to build the Dojo????

I don't know but maybe like a research center or something that solo players and small clans can build instead...........any thoughts on this?

[Ced23Ric]

Here's an idea.

 

Do you think clans could "soft-merge" into alliances, sharing pools so they can meet a certain treshold without absolving into other clans?

[Maverick10069]

again forcing clans to merge or players to leave and join larger clans, why not fix the issue a better way, should not have to merge, merging ect never works one side will always say they are doing more work,putting in more resorces blah blah, fix the issue not force it!

[Maverick10069]

here is the point everyone is missing, the large clans have already built everything, and are researching like crazy, so already way ahead, so actually anything that is done at this point is just helping the smaller clans, as far as the largest clans go, shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted springs to mind, unless they are planning to take away from the larger clans and make them put more in to help balance it back, then it is pointless.

in fact building the Dojo is pointless for the smaller clans as they will always be that far behind.

[LongDraw]

here is the point everyone is missing, the large clans have already built everything, and are researching like crazy, so already way ahead, so actually anything that is done at this point is just helping the smaller clans, as far as the largest clans go, shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted springs to mind, unless they are planning to take away from the larger clans and make them put more in to help balance it back, then it is pointless.

in fact building the Dojo is pointless for the smaller clans as they will always be that far behind.

You assume there aren't any future additions to be made available for the dojo.

[Maverick10069]

no i know there will be and it will still be just as unbalanced

[LongDraw]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the developers treat the balancing of costs like a loan.  The larger clans would just have to pay off their loans first before they could expand again.

[Ced23Ric]

again forcing clans to merge or players to leave and join larger clans, why not fix the issue a better way, should not have to merge, merging ect never works one side will always say they are doing more work,putting in more resorces blah blah, fix the issue not force it!

 

Relax. You are way up there with your emotions, while we are trying to have a constructive discussion. You are looking at other meadows and complain about their harvest, and you complain about being forced to do something. In all honesty, you are making your own case worse.

 

Solutions, not blame.

Ideas, not envy.

Feedback, not complaints.

 

Try to be constructive, instead of losing your grip here. Expecting clans of 3 people to progress as fast as clans of 30 is a little bit much to demand. Making it easier for clans of 30 and under, in comparision to clans of 300 and more, sure, that makes sense. But handing out the stuff that a clan of 3000 people has (Asuro, for example) to a clan of 3 people, at the same pace, does not make sense on any level. There will have to be some sense of compromise.

 

You get things easier, but you won't be able to get everything. For example, no large clan halls for you, and less tiles to use. A small clan's dojo may not be as expansive as a large clan one's. You should be able to cover your research and get a PvP room in, but luxurious halls for leisure may be technology not unlocked for a small clan - or simply unobtainable without expansion.

 

Anything else would make clans of any size pointless. Why deal with 300 people and put all this work in to organize them if 3 people get the same?

[twdarkeh]

I don't think that a member cap is really needed. I would rather see the required materials for the Dojo scaled upward as clan size increases. For example, have a base cost for clans with <25/50/75/100/whatever you define as small members, and then have it scale up on a multiplier as the size increases. So a clan less than or equal to 2x but still bigger than the size of whatever a "small" clan is would pay double the materials. Same for 3x and so on.

 

Ofc, with the current prices, that would be insane, so lower the base cost to something really small. Ofc, this also has potential to be abused in that clans could just swap members in and out, build the dojo, then recruit everyone back, but everything has the potential to be abused. I think that scaled requirements are the best way to balance it out for clans that want to stay small and close friends.

[Luckyfer]

Here's an idea.

 

Do you think clans could "soft-merge" into alliances, sharing pools so they can meet a certain treshold without absolving into other clans?

that's something we definitely don't wanna do.

 

you are completely dependent from strangers then.

the point is we want to play in a group of a few ppl, we know since years.

 

and being dependent from ppl you don't know on the internet, is always kinda meh.

 

I also don't get the point why clans should be big in this game?

all content is for groups of 4 ppl, EVERYTHING. so why aren't clansizes based around this 4 member size.

 

when the 4 ppl are active what is the point of inviting more ppl, it's  just more groups, but still running independently from each other.

 

this point of view would change, with 40 man raids or whatsoever.

 

 

but building all content on 4 ppl and then force ppl to join a few hundred member clans, just to be heads-up with the rest, is a silly system

 

it would be a fresh breeze in the gaming industry if once small groups wouldn't be handicapped.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Luckyfer

[Ced23Ric]

it would be a fresh breeze in the gaming industry if once small groups wouldn't be handicapped.

 

You are confusing a party with a clan. 4 players is not a clan, it's a party. You can found a clan with 4 people, but you will still only have a party. It's like having ten soldiers and calling it an army. Don't make much sense. And it's really not the gaming industry, it's the gamers. Large clans/guilds etc. are something people want. When Firefall limited their "armies" to 20 members, people flipped tables. Groups of 150++ people were suddenly not able to join up with each other - and Firefall peaks at five people per squad.

 

Also, again, expecting a tiny group to achieve the same things as a large group is grossly disproportionate to manhours and effect. Of course DE will make compromises and take steps to be more accomodating for small clans. But still, insisting that 5 people should get what 500 get, at a comparable speed, is just not fair or even appropriate. We will see what DE comes up with.

[Luckyfer]

You are confusing a party with a clan. 4 players is not a clan, it's a party. You can found a clan with 4 people, but you will still only have a party. It's like having ten soldiers and calling it an army. Don't make much sense. And it's really not the gaming industry, it's the gamers. Large clans/guilds etc. are something people want. When Firefall limited their "armies" to 20 members, people flipped tables. Groups of 150++ people were suddenly not able to join up with each other - and Firefall peaks at five people per squad.

 

Also, again, expecting a tiny group to achieve the same things as a large group is grossly disproportionate to manhours and effect. Of course DE will make compromises and take steps to be more accomodating for small clans. But still, insisting that 5 people should get what 500 get, at a comparable speed, is just not fair or even appropriate. We will see what DE comes up with.

 

If I invade a land and they only let 10 soldiers in. 10 soldiers are the army.

as you can't enter anything in the game with more than 4 ppl, I don't see the point calling the MAXIMUM amount of players in one area not clan (except dojo).

besides farming resources for the dojo, there is no difference in the game whether you team up with 4 or 400 ppl.

 

and as someone mentioned in another thread, being in a few hundred member clan, doesn't give you a "clan feeling", but just being part of a huge horde of anonymous random ppl.

People only want 100+ member clans, because they get clear advantages of reaching stuff sooner than others.

But i highly doubt, people really enjoy being in a 200 person clan more than in a smaller, let's say around 20 people, clan, where all the people actually communicate with each other.

And having 150 vs 150 people fights is something else, cause as we all know, the maximum here is still 4ppl

[Rafarix]

Relax. You are way up there with your emotions, while we are trying to have a constructive discussion. You are looking at other meadows and complain about their harvest, and you complain about being forced to do something. In all honesty, you are making your own case worse.

 

Solutions, not blame.

Ideas, not envy.

Feedback, not complaints.

 

Try to be constructive, instead of losing your grip here. Expecting clans of 3 people to progress as fast as clans of 30 is a little bit much to demand. Making it easier for clans of 30 and under, in comparision to clans of 300 and more, sure, that makes sense. But handing out the stuff that a clan of 3000 people has (Asuro, for example) to a clan of 3 people, at the same pace, does not make sense on any level. There will have to be some sense of compromise.

 

You get things easier, but you won't be able to get everything. For example, no large clan halls for you, and less tiles to use. A small clan's dojo may not be as expansive as a large clan one's. You should be able to cover your research and get a PvP room in, but luxurious halls for leisure may be technology not unlocked for a small clan - or simply unobtainable without expansion.

 

Anything else would make clans of any size pointless. Why deal with 300 people and put all this work in to organize them if 3 people get the same?

 

I agree with you Ced23Ric. The reason why people choose to band together and form a large clan is to increase the amount of available resources they have in all. Not everyone will contribute, but a good amount will. Expecting say a group of 4 to make the same progress as a group of 400 is not very reasonable as stated.

 

The game may only have a max of 4 person squad but declaring that the dojo should revolve around that number is not good, It'll just make the idea of even have a clan pointless, and Dojo not needed. Clans are meant to be a sizable number of people not just one squad of 4 if it was meant for just 4 or less people then the friends list/public hang out spot is all that this game needs.

 

I believe that one of the main reasons for the Dojo they added was to encourage people to band together and work towards the goal. The reason why some of the cost was a bit high was to encourage people to leave their comfort zone and meet other people. Of course they didn't think people would have formed mega clans which is why they are planning on adding caps sometime in the future.

 

That being said as posted earlier Steve mention there will be resource scaling, but I have my doubts it'll be based on the number of members, but more by the clan tiers.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Rafarix

[SnowWulF]

Why don´t you just add something like a barrak or a Sleephallway in the Dojo-Construction. So you would be able to let the Clan size itself. "You want a 10 man clan? No problem just build a small barrak." or "A 200 man clan? After x little barraks you can build medium and large barraks and scale this thing up!"

 

The main fun for me to be in a clan jet is to build the dojo up, cause the construction-set is really facinating. You can use it to regulate it the same way you ´ve done it with energy- and logisticpoints. Also you would be able to lock/unlock certain other things for clans and members like buffs, Void lvl, blueprints, etc.

 

This is a great opportunity to allow player in later development to get their own rooms, too. ;)