Power Immunity: A Development Crutch that Needs to Go Away

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

You won't find me arguing for less challenge.  However nullifiers are not challenging at all so please take the 'Git gud' argument and go elsewhere.  All they do is limit our options and make the game seem more like a generic PvE shooter.

Did you read my initial post about capture missions?  There I detail a more interesting way to go about balancing our powers with enemies that we need to not be able to simply run over, but still respect that we have those powers. 

One of the reviewers who got back into Warframe after not playing it for 2 years said Warframe was all about the 'Rule of Cool.'  Please tell me how brainlessly rinsing down a giant flashing bubble with a Boltor is cool?

Loot and grind is part of the game.  There are only so many times you can run a t1s to 60 mins looking for a volt part before the magic wares off.  After that I'm not there for the novelty of the gameplay, I'm there for the part.  I'm glad DE changed the prime part grinding game play, but in doing so they also removed any reason to ever stay in a mission long enough to find real challenge.

So, is it about the unnecessary risk, or is it about "I want to play the way that I play?"  Nullifiers are not challenging, but teammates die when the try to kill them with melee, and you go as far as to not res those players?  Seems like two different ideas in play here.

I agree about Capture targets being totally immune to even a single instance of CC abilities (Synthesis targets do this right, IMO, where every power works once.)

Unfortunately, as long as we have access to our powers as they are now, gameplay is entirely trivial.  Nullifiers, messed up as they are, are one of the few elements that changes up gameplay and makes missions losable in Warframe.  Arguing for their removal translates, like it or not, to arguing for the removal of the last vestige of challenge in this game.

 

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

15 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

So, is it about the unnecessary risk, or is it about "I want to play the way that I play?"  Nullifiers are not challenging, but teammates die when the try to kill them with melee, and you go as far as to not res those players?  Seems like two different ideas in play here.

I agree about Capture targets being totally immune to even a single instance of CC abilities (Synthesis targets do this right, IMO, where every power works once.)

Unfortunately, as long as we have access to our powers as they are now, gameplay is entirely trivial.  Nullifiers, messed up as they are, are one of the few elements that changes up gameplay and makes missions losable in Warframe.  Arguing for their removal translates, like it or not, to arguing for the removal of the last vestige of challenge in this game.

 

It is unnecessary risk.  You called me a coward for saying that and that I need to be pushed out of my comfort zone and just fight them the way you do.  I play to win and reviving players who continuously do something that gets them killed when there is a better alternative only drags the team down with them.  There is only one reliable way to fight nullifiers and that is at long range with high fire rate weapons.  If you do something else and die in a crowd of enemies you are a hindrance, and it's better that lesson is learned before tower 3/4 D.  It's a game and you are free to do as you wish, but don't expect me to cater to you.  And everything I just said is why they need to be changed, I dislike needing to be that unfriendly.

What do you think about the suggestions I made in the third paragraph of my earlier post regarding capture? (pasted below for convenience)

Spoiler

Capture missions are an interesting problem.  On one hand if they allow me to use molecular prime the mission is trivialized on the other hand if the target is power immune I am trivialized.  Having played both versions of the mission I find the non-immune targets more fun, not out of any sort of challenge but because it's fun doing bad things to them.  Using atlas to falcon punch them across the room was hilarious.  Now that they are power immune I can't do anything evil or interesting to them anymore.  They also are not any harder because I just use frost's freeze which still works because it inflicts a non power based status effect and then just burst them down.  It's the same thing just not fun.

Am I missing the point of capture missions?  Before capture missions were about choosing a kit that that effectively let you disable and capture the target.  What do you even need to kit for now in capture missions?  I use frost, but it's not necessary, nor is speed despite what OP says.  All you really need is a high fire-rate weapon in case they are a nullifier target and you just shoot em.  There is no strategy.

My solution?  Change capture missions, and reenable powers.  Make the mission about shackling the target rather than killing him which you must do three or four times.  After each shackle the target casts dispel and becomes more power RESISTANT(meaning the power strength and power duration of the skills used on the target are reduced, you could say the shackles interfere with void powers).  Shackles are applied by using special capture target only finisher attacks which can only be used when the target is under half health and in a finisher state.  These special finishers do not require a melee weapon.  The target goes back to full health after each shackle.  If they player does not bring a frame that can induce finisher states then dropping the target's health to 20% will induce a finisher state.  If the player misses the window of opportunity then the target will dispel, be healed to 30%, and resume fleeing.  If capture missions were changed like this then my powers would be respected, the target would not be a pushover, and there would be a point in bringing a specialized kit.

Lastly I have never argued for their removal.  I have always said that making it so bows and snipers penetrate the shield would be a good counter that would encourage weapon diversity in a group.  I have also suggested making them stronger so that their bubbles just block everything, and can't be dropped until you parkor in a kill a set of dedicated ospreys.  The nullifier would also be nearly invulnerable while the shield was up so the fight order would be, charge the ospreys, retreat to down the shield, and finally kill.  Those changes of course would be accompanied with a massive reduction in spawn rate, i.e. one every 5 mins.

[RealPandemonium]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

It is unnecessary risk.  You called me a coward for saying that and that I need to be pushed out of my comfort zone and just fight them the way you do.  I play to win and reviving players who continuously do something that gets them killed when there is a better alternative only drags the team down with them.  There is only one reliable way to fight nullifiers and that is at long range with high fire rate weapons.  If you do something else and die in a crowd of enemies you are a hindrance, and it's better that lesson is learned before tower 3/4 D.  It's a game and you are free to do as you wish, but don't expect me to cater to you.  And everything I just said is why they need to be changed, I dislike needing to be that unfriendly.

What do you think about the suggestions I made in the third paragraph of my earlier post regarding capture? (pasted below for convenience)

  Hide contents

Capture missions are an interesting problem.  On one hand if they allow me to use molecular prime the mission is trivialized on the other hand if the target is power immune I am trivialized.  Having played both versions of the mission I find the non-immune targets more fun, not out of any sort of challenge but because it's fun doing bad things to them.  Using atlas to falcon punch them across the room was hilarious.  Now that they are power immune I can't do anything evil or interesting to them anymore.  They also are not any harder because I just use frost's freeze which still works because it inflicts a non power based status effect and then just burst them down.  It's the same thing just not fun.

Am I missing the point of capture missions?  Before capture missions were about choosing a kit that that effectively let you disable and capture the target.  What do you even need to kit for now in capture missions?  I use frost, but it's not necessary, nor is speed despite what OP says.  All you really need is a high fire-rate weapon in case they are a nullifier target and you just shoot em.  There is no strategy.

My solution?  Change capture missions, and reenable powers.  Make the mission about shackling the target rather than killing him which you must do three or four times.  After each shackle the target casts dispel and becomes more power RESISTANT(meaning the power strength and power duration of the skills used on the target are reduced, you could say the shackles interfere with void powers).  Shackles are applied by using special capture target only finisher attacks which can only be used when the target is under half health and in a finisher state.  These special finishers do not require a melee weapon.  The target goes back to full health after each shackle.  If they player does not bring a frame that can induce finisher states then dropping the target's health to 20% will induce a finisher state.  If the player misses the window of opportunity then the target will dispel, be healed to 30%, and resume fleeing.  If capture missions were changed like this then my powers would be respected, the target would not be a pushover, and there would be a point in bringing a specialized kit.

Lastly I have never argued for their removal.  I have always said that making it so bows and snipers penetrate the shield would be a good counter that would encourage weapon diversity in a group.  I have also suggested making them stronger so that their bubbles just block everything, and can't be dropped until you parkor in a kill a set of dedicated ospreys.  The nullifier would also be nearly invulnerable while the shield was up so the fight order would be, charge the ospreys, retreat to down the shield, and finally kill.  Those changes of course would be accompanied with a massive reduction in spawn rate, i.e. one every 5 mins.

I like the shackle idea for Captures, especially since Capture is the new Deception when it comes to speedrunning for quick rewards.  

My mention of cowardly players was not meant for you, specifically, but I do dislike that people give feedback that implies that gameplay doesn't matter as long as rewards keep flowing in.  This again is not directed at you necessarily, especially since you're just acting along the lines of your own incentives; it's a core problem that the game doesn't force people to make an effort for their rewards, which is the conclusion that I wanted to reach earlier, and Nullifiers are one aspect of WF that does [in theory] force players to make an effort.  

I do think that autos should be nerfed so that they don't trivialize bubbles (and snipers/bows/etc buffed to bring them to similar baseline performance with the nerfed autos,) which I have mentioned earlier in this thread.  Melee should be similarly attractive to using guns when it comes to Nullifier bubbles: using guns causes you to lose ground but keeps you relatively safe in the immediate-term, while melee is personally more risky but lets you control the area you're currently occupying since power-immune enemies don't surround you and compromise your position.  If my proposed changes to minimum and maximum shield damage were made, this would be a meaningful trade-off (as it is, it's only so in current gameplay when you don't have a high RoF weapon.)  Sound reasonable to you?

[Zookes]

I kind of agree, but some of OP is hyperbole.

Nullifiers are fine when only one is around. It is a threat only because it makes abilities ineffective against other enemies (itself not threatening) and requires a change of tactics to dispatch, but it is very easy to dispatch in circumstances outside of lvl70+ mob spawns. But this is a problem. This may not seem like a problem to most players, but it is - it breaks combat flow and encourages cheese builds in mid-to-high level content, which is what sorties are.

Consider current "interruptions" to the standard combat "mob farm" flow: assassins, underbosses, and nullifiers.

Assassins - Stalker / G3 / Zanuka / Syndicate Assassin Squads

• announcement signals appearance; prompts players to regroup and prepare (players are warned and can prepare for its appearance)
• can be a massive threat to any player without the loadout to deal with them and can interrupt mission progress (alters focus)
• always requires a major change of tactics to win (breaks combat flow)
• victory rewards rare / exclusive loot (justified effort)
• 4 for 4, assassins add some challenge in a fun way

Underbosses - Prosecutors (pre-nerf) / Manics / Bursas (pre-nerf)

• announcement signals appearance; prompts players to regroup and prepare (")
• can be somewhat threatening to any player without the loadout to deal with them and can interrupt mission progress (")
• often requires a minor change of tactics to win (augments combat flow)
• victory has / had a chance to reward rare / exclusive loot (")
• 4 for 4, underbosses add some appealing variety to the standard

Nullifiers

• not announced; players do not always know if one is around until heard nearby or within line of sight (no player can be prepared for its appearance)
• is not a threat itself, but strips powers and makes surrounding enemy units impossible to control (alters focus)
• always requires a major change of tactics to win (breaks combat flow)
• victory rewards nothing special (effort unjustified)
• 2 out of 4, nullifiers are Arctic Eximus++ at best, fun-destroyers at worst

Nullifiers should not be a standard unit. They should appear announced and be a much bigger challenge, as nullifying the effectiveness of all abilities and a large number of interesting weapons should be a BIG DEAL, not par for the course. Personally, I think nullifiers should be buffed in even more interesting ways, but with the limitation that only one or two may be spawned in a level at any given time and that they won't show up unannounced.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Zookes

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Sound reasonable to you?

That would except melee is still too dangerous due to the habit bombards have of gathering under those bubbles.  Something would have to be done about that to make melee a reliable option against nullifiers.  Maybe make it so that only fodder units hide under the shield?

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

it's a core problem that the game doesn't force people to make an effort for their rewards, which is the conclusion that I wanted to reach earlier

I think the game lets players make their own challenge, which is why I use snipers and some non-standard frames.  Your proposed changes would open up weapon selection but i think a hard counter would be better to encourage weapon diversity just like tower def parties would always have a frost.  Void and corpus missions would always have a sniper or bow to penetrate the shields.

[RealPandemonium]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

would be better to encourage weapon diversity just like tower def parties would always have a frost.  Void and corpus missions would always have a sniper or bow to penetrate the shields.

Isn't that the opposite of diversity?  Missions being tuned around Frost's AFK bubble has been a problem for years, and now Excavations are nearly impossible without Frost bubbles or some other point defense bandaid.  A big reason that people dislike Nullifiers is because they force them to bring high RoF weapons to Corpus missions.  That's why I think hard counters are inelegant and would only complicate the problem we presently have.  

1 hour ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

That would except melee is still too dangerous due to the habit bombards have of gathering under those bubbles.  Something would have to be done about that to make melee a reliable option against nullifiers.  Maybe make it so that only fodder units hide under the shield?

This is more of an issue with Bombards than it is with Nullifiers.  Bombard fire rate should be reduced, base level increased a bit, and panic-shots removed entirely.  Maybe give them a special melee attack to defend themselves with when you're too close for them to effectively use their gun.  Those rapid-fire panic-shots are pretty much the biggest factor when it comes to them being unreasonable underneath the bubbles.  That said, smart rolling and proper melee maneuvering can allow you to quickly dispatch the Nullifier without getting hit by any rockets, even in the current game; the goal is to lower the risk of doing so (which is mostly caused by the panic-shot bug in the first place.)

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Isn't that the opposite of diversity?

I'm talking about the diversity of frames and weapons within the group of four, not diversity among the different groups of four.  The latter is important but I don't think it needs immediate attention.  Currently with most missions there is no reason for everyone to not just take the same frame.  Spy/Rescue/Sab? Loki and Ivara.  Anything else not defense?  Take room nukers.  But for defense you should bring frost, 1 CC, and 2 DDs.  It's really the only mission that encourages players to take different rolls to complete the mission.  I don't really think that is a bad thing.  It's one of the things that made Destiny's raids really enjoyable.  The sniper and bow hard counter suggestion would promote this kind of diversity.  It would work because its an optional additive mechanic where as nullifiers are a required subtractive mechanic.

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

This is more of an issue with Bombards than it is with Nullifiers.

I want to see Nullifiers burn first.

Edited July 27, 2016 by (PS4)Final_Dragon01

[Marthrym]

On 7/25/2016 at 9:57 PM, JSharpie said:

Even when Nullifiers were spawning like crazy, I never had a problem with them. Even when I was leveling up the few snipers that were still low ranked, all I had to do was walk into their bubble and hit E. Then I can use my powers immediately to decimate any enemy that was using his bubble to their advantage.

They're their to stop the "I can slaughter so many enemies immediately!" gameplay. They're supposed to slow you down and make you think, not just press a button and make the problem go away.

Enemies like this exist in all games. Look at Dynasty Warrior, there are the common fodder that are there to keep you busy until the guys who take a few more hits and thinking come out. Same principle. Video games are not perfect, Warframe is not and will never be perfect, but it shouldn't be a cakewalk through and through.

They don't make players think. They just make them go brain-dead and shoot or suicide-dive into the bubbles. They're a GIGANTIC failure to boot, since they have the exact opposite effect they were supposed to, namely counter ability spam. A terribad design overall, a kneejerk reaction to a much bigger underlying problem that is still alive and kicking after years of pointing out how badly it needs to be dealt with.

If you have to stop and think while fighting these guys, I fear what might happen the day REAL challenge shows up in Warframe. If it ever does show up.

There is no challenge in Warframe. We either faceroll our way through hordes of utterly weak and defenseless enemies, or said enemies are so ridiculously overpowered because of a moronic scaling and cheap and unfair mechanics that simply remove gameplay options that instant death awaits behind every other door, and abilities, however imbalanced they may be, end up being worthless because the devs were too lazy, overworked, or just couldn't bother to balance their game in the first place and decided to make a pathetic attempt at hiding the issue behind the smoke screen that nullifiers and, more generally, power immune enemies are.

The saddest part is, all this did is promote cheese and exploits even more, not because they prove to be a challenge, but because they make the game oh so boring by amputing from it what gives it any semblance of uniqueness, so many players simply choose to gear up just to take care of this particular enemy as fast as possible so as to try and have fun for a change and play the full game instead of a barebone version of it. Sad. So sad.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Marthrym

[artemisfortune]

59 minutes ago, Marthrym said:

-sniiiiiiiiiiip-

I have a fresh account I used to see if this game was a challenge. Low and behold without all the stuff I've collected over the years, it is!

You and I have been playing for likely 3+ years. We find things easy because we can make it easy. We've farmed the best mods, experimented with the best builds, and played the game learning it's ins and outs for years. Of course it's going to be easy for us. If you want a challenge now you have to gimp yourself. Hell, even with all my playtime I find Raids to be quite challenging.

[Replacement]

On 7/25/2016 at 9:46 AM, BlackCoMerc said:

You also dont take bows, snipers, shotguns, Loki, Limbo, Mesa or Nezha to high level or Sortie Corpus missions. Ever. They have been rendered strictly subpar - and arguably non viable, in many cases - for these scenarios. ALL of them. Every time.

Didn't want this nice nugget lost in the wash.  It's expected that some frames will be weak towards some units and stronger against others, but these should remain "soft" counters.  And there's no counter to rapid fire high DPS weaponry, no counter to frames that don't mind a void tear spawning a nullifier on their heads.

When you have such a dramatic hindrance to so many player choices, you're removing player choices.  And if you say "nothing stops you from playing something suboptimal" -- yes.  Something does.  It's called decency for my fellow player.  

This isn't Skyrim.  If I gimp myself, I gimp my team.

[OnlinePhenome]

20 hours ago, (PS4)Del-ProdigyT said:

They have to address the ability to spam ultimate's along with power immunity.  Power immunity exists because we eventually can just spam abilities that started out as costly.  I'm not surprised looking at a stream knowing what I'm capable of that the players with everything are finding the game boring.  I kinda don't want to work on my lens or towards arcanes because then I'll just find everything too easy.  I wish there was more true gun variety for tackling the higher levels then the soma.  The soma is just so much better then everything its frustrating to bring others guns vs level 60+ plus stuff to me.  Its so painfully obvious just reading the stats and understanding critical hit damage.  I hate critical hit damage I swear not one game developer has been able to balance this stat in any game period, it always results in stagnant balance where high crit chance builds rule or the norm  becomes everyone has massive critical chance level.  Powercreep powercreep powercreep can't anyone try to avoid this?

I see the balance problem being a combination of poor gun balance to encourage variety vs higher level foes, prompt up by ability spam to bring other weapons which then forces the concept of power immunity to make the game challenging in the face ability spam.  So in short they need to balance the gun variety first then remove this infinite energy along with nullfiers and go from there.  In no other game would spamming your best global ability be considered acceptable skilled gameplay.  Watching frost players spam avalanche is humbling in not wanting to keeping pushing forward.  That's not good gameplay its not interesting to watch or do.  If they balance the guns better first it will be fun for everyone moving forward before the necessary nerfs hit.

But Soma Prime isn't actually that good against high level enemies, there are better options if you know how to look for them. Soma Prime or Boltor Prime being the best primaries are a common fallacy. Well, Soma Prime does melt Nullifier bubbles but it's really not a good high level killer. In ACTUAL high levels you'll just pour magazines of bullets into one high armored enemy and that's that (level 100+ or so). There are other really good alternatives, just saying. Such as Zhuge (worse accuracy, but you don't often even need that high accuracy in warframe's narrow corridor maps, most maps have medium range fights at best...) with high RoF. 

 

Anyways, I agree that nullies have design flaws and they need some working. Completing a mission with just one power killing everything in few seconds however is not that fun at all even for the fast loot it gives. Also, there will always be more shiny guns and power creep so people have some reason to throw their cash at the screen to be as OP as possible in the shortest amount of time.

 

Edit: Different tools for different jobs, but if you're not building other primaries because you don't "need" them is pretty sad, but it's not all that black and white... There is also Synoid S... *Cough*

Talking about viable weapons; I'm basing my arguments on high armored enemies, because of heavy void units. Weapon balance might change with the void corrupted changes, though.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Irregardless_Existence

[RealPandemonium]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

Didn't want this nice nugget lost in the wash.  It's expected that some frames will be weak towards some units and stronger against others, but these should remain "soft" counters.  And there's no counter to rapid fire high DPS weaponry, no counter to frames that don't mind a void tear spawning a nullifier on their heads.

When you have such a dramatic hindrance to so many player choices, you're removing player choices.  And if you say "nothing stops you from playing something suboptimal" -- yes.  Something does.  It's called decency for my fellow player.  

This isn't Skyrim.  If I gimp myself, I gimp my team.

This again confusing "I lose my auto-win" with "I can no longer play these frames/weapons."  It's crazy to me that people just refuse to play the game if they can't do it as if Nullifiers don't exist.  The entitlement is stifling.  

The "I need to be there for my team" argument is also a weak one.  If you want to stand out and carry your team, get good at the game instead of relying on pre-built solutions to everything the game throws at you.  You can carry your team without gimmicks, but it requires effort.  

Embracing the powerspam safe-space that ensures mission success through game-trivialization and acting as if every other playstyle should be eradicated is abhorrent to me and other players who miss the Warframe before exploitation became the norm.  

Edited July 27, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[BlackCoMerc]

11 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

This again confusing "I lose my auto-win" with "I can no longer play these frames/weapons."  It's crazy to me that people just refuse to play the game if they can't do it as if Nullifiers don't exist.  The entitlement is stifling.  

The "I need to be there for my team" argument is also a weak one.  If you want to stand out and carry your team, get good at the game instead of relying on pre-built solutions to everything the game throws at you.  You can carry your team without gimmicks, but it requires effort.  

Embracing the powerspam safe-space that ensures mission success through game-trivialization and acting as if every other playstyle should be eradicated is abhorrent to me and other players who miss the Warframe before exploitation became the norm.  

Never said I support gross power spam. Frankly, it bores me.

But I also don't support NOT HAVING powers at all. And higher level missions so consistently turn off powers,thatt we may as well not have them.

Fleeting Expertise broke the game. That's the long and short. Then pizzas and orbs piled on,aking a bad position worse.

Efficiency needs to be capped at 50℅. Or even removed entirely. No more orbs. Every frame gets a small Regen, increased by Energy Siphon.

Then we get rid of Nullifiers. And ridiculous knockdown spam.

Edited July 27, 2016 by BlackCoMerc

[RealPandemonium]

46 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Never said I support gross power spam. Frankly, it bores me.

But I also don't support NOT HAVING powers at all. And higher level missions so consistently turn off powers,thatt we may as well not have them.

Fleeting Expertise broke the game. That's the long and short. Then pizzas and orbs piled on,aking a bad position worse.

Efficiency needs to be capped at 50℅. Or even removed entirely. No more orbs. Every frame gets a small Regen, increased by Energy Siphon.

Then we get rid of Nullifiers. And ridiculous knockdown spam.

We agree about powerspam and energy economy being wrong, but I disagree that powers are turned off in high level Corpus/Void missions.  As long as you actively oppose Nullifiers and use the terrain correctly, you can almost play as if Nullifiers aren't even there.  The big problem isn't really the Nullifiers themselves, but the Bombards/Techs/Sappers sitting under them, since their damage is punitive and overtuned.  

[Bibliothekar]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

The "I need to be there for my team" argument is also a weak one.  If you want to stand out and carry your team, get good at the game

Oh yes, because "GIT GUD, SCRUB" is an infinitely better argument ...

21 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

but I disagree that powers are turned off in high level Corpus/Void missions.  As long as you actively oppose Nullifiers and use the terrain correctly, you can almost play as if Nullifiers aren't even there.

Come again? I just skip Corpus sortie with survival now, because it'll start looking like a giant bubble bath after around five minutes, with Nullifiers everywhere. And please tell me how to actively oppose Nullifiers without having to rely on "pre-built solutions". You either have to go in with a high-suvivability frame and cut them down or sit somewhere safe and pop their bubble with a high-ROF weapon.

Also, without Nullifiers I don't give a second thought about Mind Controlling that Tech over there. With Nullifiers, I don't even bother bringing Nyx to high-level Corpus any more, because I'm practically useless anyway and just wasting my energy. I mean, those guys just have to walk past me and my Absorb just ends without doing anything. Those were glorious days when you could slide into their bubble with active Maim and a few 10k damage and the blast would kill them and anything else in there. But now I rather run away from them to get at least a few kills for all that energy spent.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Bibliothekar

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

This again confusing "I lose my auto-win" with "I can no longer play these frames/weapons."  It's crazy to me that people just refuse to play the game if they can't do it as if Nullifiers don't exist.  The entitlement is stifling.  

Disillusion yourself, dude.  You're dehumanizing me in your mind so it's easier for you to sit on your high horse/soapbox/throne.  Clearly, I'm a whiny baby who is mad if I can't auto win.  I require power spam at all times or I cry.  And I'm also just plain bad at the game.  All of these are things you passive-aggressively tell me in your post.  And they're all the sorts of things people post about "those guys".  The players that seem to plague old Draco, but never seem to be the person posting about it?  Sound about right?  

There is no mechanic that is anti-Soma Prime.  There is no mechanic like having a nullifier spawn on top of you because it's an effing void tear and they do that that's as harsh on Excalibur as it is for a Chroma.

---

EDIT: I'm pulling out some useless stuff from my original post here.  Instead let me say this: insinuating that I don't like nullifiers because I can't spam powers or play like they don't exist is a false dichotomy.  I said it removes gameplay options, and I gave examples of how it disproportionately affects some gear choices more than others.  Instead of addressing this, you made the assumption that I was insisting on using bad gear choices.  

That's exactly the sort of "with us or against us" mindset that resulted in uh... shall we say, messy politics?

Edited July 27, 2016 by Replacement

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Disillusion yourself, dude.  You're dehumanizing me in your mind so it's easier for you to sit on your high horse/soapbox/throne.  Clearly, I'm a whiny baby who is mad if I can't auto win.  I require power spam at all times or I cry.  And I'm also just plain bad at the game.  All of these are things you passive-aggressively tell me in your post.  And they're all the sorts of things people post about "those guys".  The players that seem to plague old Draco, but never seem to be the person posting about it?  Sound about right?  

There is no mechanic that is anti-Soma Prime.  There is no mechanic like having a nullifier spawn on top of you because it's an effing void tear and they do that that's as harsh on Excalibur as it is for a Chroma.

---

EDIT: I'm pulling out some useless stuff from my original post here.  Instead let me say this: insinuating that I don't like nullifiers because I can't spam powers or play like they don't exist is a false dichotomy.  I said it removes gameplay options, and I gave examples of how it disproportionately affects some gear choices more than others.  Instead of addressing this, you made the assumption that I was insisting on using bad gear choices.  

That's exactly the sort of "with us or against us" mindset that resulted in uh... shall we say, messy politics?

Well said. I completely agree.

At this point no logical reason exists to keep Nullifiers in the game.

Those who "support" their presence can offer nothing more than "Git Gud" or "They arent hard." They arent even actually SUPPORTING anything. Or arguing in its favor. At best they are urging people to tolerate something. At best.

Meanwhile, those that argue AGAINST Nullifiers, have offered numerous, well reasoned arguments regarding limiting game play options, killing the fun factor and outright making things (that people might even buy with plat some day) utterly useless for entire missions. 

Its bad design. So is the power creep and energy efficiency that gave rise to it. I wont argue that; Fleeting Expertise has BROKEN this game, and it needs fixed. But Nullifiers are NOT the solution to the problem. Better overall game design is.

[Replacement]

Absolutely.  I think if it was communicated better in-game how important their helmets are, Combas/Scrambus could really take over for Nullifiers.  They make you think and prioritize, and they also reward good aim.  Buff them if you need to.  Give them like 80% reduced crowd control duration and power damage taken.  But at least they have tactical counter-play (Nullifiers require strategic counter-play: which is to say, "bring exactly this gear", and is always problematic to non-RTS game design).

Oddly, I wouldn't mind Nullifiers if they were strictly Eximus units.  Eximus is rare and rewards a lot of XP.  A "Null Eximus" would be effing annoying in Eximus Strongholds, but that's a lot less of the game than they've invaded thus far.

And someone change the damn Sapping mine color to not be exactly the same as a null bubble.

[robbybe01234]

I'm gonna keep this as simple as possible.  Do whatever you have to do so I can play warframe:

As this: A freakin space mummy

Not this: Shooter guy #3

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

58 minutes ago, robbybe01234 said:

I'm gonna keep this as simple as possible.  Do whatever you have to do so I can play warframe:

As this: A freakin space mummy

Not this: Shooter guy #3

And we have the heart of the matter.

[RealPandemonium]

10 hours ago, Replacement said:

Disillusion yourself, dude.  You're dehumanizing me in your mind so it's easier for you to sit on your high horse/soapbox/throne.  Clearly, I'm a whiny baby who is mad if I can't auto win.  I require power spam at all times or I cry.  And I'm also just plain bad at the game.  All of these are things you passive-aggressively tell me in your post.  And they're all the sorts of things people post about "those guys".  The players that seem to plague old Draco, but never seem to be the person posting about it?  Sound about right?  

There is no mechanic that is anti-Soma Prime.  There is no mechanic like having a nullifier spawn on top of you because it's an effing void tear and they do that that's as harsh on Excalibur as it is for a Chroma.

---

EDIT: I'm pulling out some useless stuff from my original post here.  Instead let me say this: insinuating that I don't like nullifiers because I can't spam powers or play like they don't exist is a false dichotomy.  I said it removes gameplay options, and I gave examples of how it disproportionately affects some gear choices more than others.  Instead of addressing this, you made the assumption that I was insisting on using bad gear choices.  

That's exactly the sort of "with us or against us" mindset that resulted in uh... shall we say, messy politics?

My words are not directed at you, specifically, and my assertions are not necessarily even based on player attitudes (though they do distress me.)  The fact is, the unprecedentedly unfettered access that we have to our powers in the current state of Warframe means that missions are practically unlosable, and that gameplay is reduced to the gimmicks that make the mission unlosable.  Nullifiers at least threaten our ability to win with impunity.  They create gameplay, rather than removing it as people assert they do (nothing removes gameplay like indefinitely CCing everything on the map, remaining [effectively] invulnerable in a variety of different ways, or nuking everything on the tile to death with zero effort.)  In the level 70+ environment of Sorties, Nullifiers only highlight how broken enemy scaling is; they do not, by themselves, break the experience.  

Fissure Nullifiers are pretty cheap, and should be addressed as a separate issue, though only because they are unsatisfying and not because they are unbalanced (suddenly losing your buffs in a star map mission is annoying but will likely do little to prevent you from steamrolling most star map fissure missions in the current state of WF.)

[(PSN)Final_Dragon01]

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

The fact is, the unprecedentedly unfettered access that we have to our powers in the current state of Warframe means that missions are practically unlosable, and that gameplay is reduced to the gimmicks that make the mission unlosable.

Isn't that just part of Warframe?  Even with powers disabled a team of 4 would have collectively die 20 times in a row for most missions to fail.  That probably wouldn't happen even in a sortie.  Most mission failure come exclusively from the destruction of an important objective.  Missions without some kind of defense target are in fact unloseable, and that has nothing to do with nullifiers.  Warframe is not Dark Souls.

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Nullifiers at least threaten our ability to win with impunity.

Umm no.  You agreed with me earlier in this thread that nullifiers present no challenge.

2 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

They create gameplay, rather than removing it as people assert they do (nothing removes gameplay like indefinitely CCing everything on the map, remaining [effectively] invulnerable in a variety of different ways, or nuking everything on the tile to death with zero effort.)

No they remove game play more effectively than before even by your logic.  Now it's CC spam everything outside the bubble -> drop the bubble -> CC spam everything that was in the bubble -> nuke the nully -> repeat for eternity.  They have increased the CC spam you say is so bad.  There is only one way to deal with them effectively and that is at long range with high ROF weapons.  Earlier you proposed making high ROF weapons less effective and low ROF weapons more effective against the shield.  But that is not enough.  Robby made me see why with his post.

Spoiler

10 hours ago, robbybe01234 said:

I'm gonna keep this as simple as possible.  Do whatever you have to do so I can play warframe:

As this: A freakin space mummy

Not this: Shooter guy #3

 

Nullifiers are a trash mob, and all they do is make it so we can't kill other trash mobs as quickly.  Warframe is not cool or fun because it takes longer to kill trash.  Warframe is fun because I can summon rock golems and falcon punch enemies across the room.  Cool and fun absolutely cannot be sacrificed at the alter of balance and challenge.

We need the trash mobs because tearing through legions by flash freezing them is cool and effectively communicates the power of a Warframe.

What we need in addition to the trash are enemies worthy of our powers.  Super enemies that don't die just by shooting at them.  Each faction should have several enemies that require special interaction to kill, and these enemies should be in every mission, but their power should be such that fighting two at once is a problem for a group of four.  These enemies however should never instant kill a frame, and should be power resistant by having power strength and power duration reduction percentages.  Chaos would not last long, and prime would not completely seal the enemies movement, weapons would have to be destroyed by targeting them and radial disarm would only temporally jam them.  However  abilities would still affect trash at their full power.

This way our abilities are respected, we have challenging enemies we have to engage tactically, and trash mobs die like the trash they are.  Any attempt to lower us to the level of the trash makes the game worse and is why most of community hates nullifiers.

Edited July 28, 2016 by (PS4)Final_Dragon01
typo

[BlackCoMerc]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Final_Dragon01 said:

Isn't that just part of Warframe?  Even with powers disabled a team of 4 would have collectively die 20 times in a row for most missions to fail.  That probably wouldn't happen even in a sortie.  Most mission failure come exclusively from the destruction of an important objective.  Missions without some kind of defense target are in fact unloseable, and that has nothing to do with nullifiers.  Warframe is not Dark Souls.

Umm no.  You agreed with me earlier in this thread that nullifiers present no challenge.

No they remove game play more effectively than before even by your logic.  Now it's CC spam everything outside the bubble -> drop the bubble -> CC spam everything that was in the bubble -> nuke the nully -> repeat for eternity.  They have increased the CC spam you say is so bad.  There is only one way to deal with them effectively and that is at long range with high ROF weapons.  Earlier you proposed making high ROF weapons less effective and low ROF weapons more effective against the shield.  But that is not enough.  Robby made me see why with his post.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Nullifiers are a trash mob, and all they do is make it so we can't kill other trash mobs as quickly.  Warframe is not cool or fun because it takes longer to kill trash.  Warframe is fun because I can summon rock golems and falcon punch enemies across the room.  Cool and fun absolutely cannot be sacrificed at the alter of balance and challenge.

We need the trash mobs because tearing through legions by flash freezing them is cool and effectively communicates the power of a Warframe.

What we need in addition to the trash are enemies worthy of our powers.  Super enemies that don't die just by shooting at them.  Each faction should have several enemies that require special interaction to kill, and these enemies should be in every mission, but their power should be such that fighting two at once is a problem for a group of four.  These enemies however should never instant kill a frame, and should be power resistant by having power strength and power duration reduction percentages.  Chaos would not last long, and prime would not completely seal the enemies movement, weapons would have to be destroyed by targeting them and radial disarm would only temporally jam them.  However  abilities would still affect trash at their full power.

This way our abilities are respected, we have challenging enemies we have to engage tactically, and trash mobs die like the trash they are.  Any attempt to lower us to the level of the trash makes the game worse and is why most of community hates nullifiers.

This is an idea similar to suggestions I have made. Other ARPG titles include mini bosses among mobs. Warframe should too. Hek, Archwing does now, with those new, small Grineer ships.

Why will the main game not do this?

[RealPandemonium]

So it boiled down to power fantasy appeals after all.  At least it's out in the open now.  

[NativeKiller]

Nullifiers may not be too hard to counter, however their mere existence overly restrains freedom of gameplay, thus considerably reducing the fun-factor of the game.

 

Using any sniper, bow, shotgun weapon? Nullifier says hi.

 

Range-build Frost, Magnetize Mag? Nullifier says hi.

 

Nullifers simply butcher the diversity of player choice, a sure sign of terrible game design.