[Focus] Naramon's Shadow Step passive suggestion for more weapon versatility and fitting name

[ashrah]

we have very little number of good wepons in game most are lackluster.....we have bigger problems.. fixing bugs... afk players  much more important things

[Rhaenxys]

Maiming strike exists for a reason, even for status weapons you get a nice boost in DPS if you use it with berserker.

Your suggestion is also a bit redundant, maneuvers are there to escape dangerous situations, invisibility during the animation is not really necessary, a well timed bullet jump into the air offers enough evasion, we dont need more.

The only tweak needed for shadow step is to work like the lesion/dual toxocyst buff so you cant reset the duration while the effect is on and nullifiers need to disable the invisibility, other than that is what focus passives should be.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Rhaenxys

[EmptyDevil]

2 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

It's not an opinion. As of now, Naramon can provide consistent invisibility hence prevent all enemy attention to you. Your suggestion will remove this, as it won't allow you to stay invisible all the time by default.

It is an opinion in that it's a nerf because it can be viewed as a trade off too. Guaranteed invisibility and faster evasion while sacrificing RNG and duration.

6 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

Actually, invisibility during rolls (especially with their double speed) will be completely useless

Not useless unless you don't have rolling on a keybind. Being able to break the enemy's aggro at anytime while moving faster would be very valuable.

9 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

as the only way to make use of it would be to run a completely stealthed mission, which require you to wait few minutes to be able to proc Naramon to begin with.

This is a terrible way to make a point to be frank. If someone wants to run a completely stealthed mission, they would use Ivara, Loki, Wukong, or Ash for the ability to manually trigger their invisibility. It is inefficient to load into a mission and sit there for a minute or 2 just to activate your Focus powers. A player would likely have one of these frames before unlocking Shadow Step anyway.

12 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

In the actual combat enemy targeting won't even manage to reset during such short amount of time that'll be required for the roll, so invisibility on it will do nothing. At all.

It definitely resets and loses track of you the moment you go invisible from my experience, even if it's briefly.

14 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

So, let's see, on one hand we have consistent invisibility on everything that has at least 10% critical chance, guaranteed stealth bonus damage for first hit on every enemy and essentially immortality in solo missions, and on the other we have two-times as fast rolls with fancier animation. No, that isn't even remotely a fair trade-off.

I wouldn't call something consistent if there is a 10% chance to activate it. Having "essentially immortality" is not the point of Shadow Step, if it were we would have received that instead.

18 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

However the idea itself is pretty fun, and when the concept of Warframe invisibility gets reworked (because Naramon is fine. Invisibility isn't fine) and when it stops being such a mandatory thing, with some tweaks this could work. Implementing this currently is a suggestion to trade everything for nothing.

I disagree with Naramon being fine, as i said in a previous post in this thread. Invisibility isn't mandatory at all. 

I think this idea would work fine. A simple tweak would be for maneuver animation speed to be unaffected, but the execution speed of them to be increased. If that makes sense.

[EmptyDevil]

17 minutes ago, ashrah said:

we have very little number of good wepons in game most are lackluster.....we have bigger problems.. fixing bugs... afk players  much more important things

I could copy + paste your same post to every feedback and bugfix thread, but it would still have the same effect. DE likes to see feedback and reports, you don't get to decide what is more important to DE and other players at a given moment. Besides, this is the feedback section and not the bug reporting section.

[EmptyDevil]

22 minutes ago, Rhaenxys said:

Maiming strike exists for a reason, even for status weapons you get a nice boost in DPS if you use it with berserker.

Your suggestion is also a bit redundant, maneuvers are there to escape dangerous situations, invisibility during the animation is not really necessary, a well timed bullet jump into the air offers enough evasion, we dont need more.

The only tweak needed for shadow step is to work like the lesion/dual toxocyst buff so you cant reset the duration while the effect is on and nullifiers need to disable the invisibility, other than that is what focus passives should be.

Focus powers shouldn't be dependent on mods or weapons to activate it's effects IMO.

You can still be shot or blown up during an evasive maneuver. So i disagree with redundancy being an aspect.

I don't believe Nullifiers should be allowed to cancel Focus passive effects or power effects from sources outside of Warframes. That would be too broken for an enemy.

[ShirokiHagane]

I like the idea but...How about 3 seg of invisibility after the maneuver?
I think that the time you spend doing the maneuver it's not enough to break the aggro so if you have that time it will be more than enough

[Misgenesis]

Just to add, Shadow Step can not stay as it is, on top of restricting melee usage (or forcing to use MStrike), it completely trivializes any sort of engagement in the game. Ability based invisibility was already bad enough, including un-nullifiable invisibility is outrageous.

Invisibility is basically slightly worse invincibility, though i would take enemies not seeing me at all over being immortal anytime.

You simply cant defend that.

>but muh time and effort

Focus is in BETA, they promised free re-spec anyway should big changes come.

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Misgenesis

[EmptyDevil]

4 minutes ago, ShirokiHagane said:

I like the idea but...How about 3 seg of invisibility after the maneuver?
I think that the time you spend doing the maneuver it's not enough to break the aggro so if you have that time it will be more than enough

So invisibility should linger for a bit after the roll? This sounds like it might be good. 

[EmptyDevil]

4 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Just to add, Shadow Step can not stay as it is, on top of restricting melee usage (or forcing to use MStrike), it completely trivializes any sort of engagement in the game. Ability based invisibility was already bad enough, including un-nullifiable invisibility is outrageous.

Invisibility is slightly worse invincibility, though i would take enemies not seeing me at all over being immortal anytime.

You simply cant defend that.

>but muh time and effort

Focus is in BETA, they promised free re-spec anyway should big changes come.

 

I'll add the highlighted to the OP.

[Praxxor]

11 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Just to add, Shadow Step can not stay as it is, on top of restricting melee usage (or forcing to use MStrike), it completely trivializes any sort of engagement in the game. Ability based invisibility was already bad enough, including un-nullifiable invisibility is outrageous.

Invisibility is basically slightly worse invincibility, though i would take enemies not seeing me at all over being immortal anytime.

You simply cant defend that.

>but muh time and effort

Focus is in BETA, they promised free re-spec anyway should big changes come.

 

"But muh time and effort" because this will pretty much fundamentally change the ability, yes it needs to be nerfed, but THIS can become a different ability and take the name for all I care, I want to be able to use something at least close to what I grinded two entire weeks for.

This is basically like turning a Tonkor into a sniper rifle with different stats instead of adding another sniper and nerfing the Tonkor

[(XBOX)Prime Pedestal]

1 hour ago, EmptyDevil said:

Suggested Shadow Step:

Notes:

- Would not favor specific weapons.

- Invisibility would activate every time you perform maneuvers such as rolls, back handsprings, and etc.

- Maneuver execution speed would be vastly increased.

- Invisibility would stay active for the duration of the maneuver.

A good idea but I think there would have to be some increase on invisibility. Maybe stay invisible for 5 seconds (max rank) after the manoeuvre otherwise I can't really see it being very useful as it seems the way your thinking of taking this passive is 'oh, I'm gonna die lets get away'. And of course a cooldown of maybe 15 seconds between activations so you cant stay permanently invisible. 

[EmptyDevil]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)AnnoyedHaddock said:

A good idea but I think there would have to be some increase on invisibility. Maybe stay invisible for 5 seconds (max rank) after the manoeuvre otherwise I can't really see it being very useful as it seems the way your thinking of taking this passive is 'oh, I'm gonna die lets get away'. And of course a cooldown of maybe 15 seconds between activations so you cant stay permanently invisible. 

I added a 3 second linger to the OP as suggested by @ShirokiHagane and i don't think a cooldown will be necessary. If anything the linger could be even lower. I tested a 1.5 second duration invisibility build with Ash in the Simulacrum and it effectively causes the enemy to lose track of you. I made sure to stay far enough to prevent the stagger of his ability from affecting them.

[Rhaenxys]

33 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Focus powers shouldn't be dependent on mods or weapons to activate it's effects IMO.

You can still be shot or blown up during an evasive maneuver. So i disagree with redundancy being an aspect.

I don't believe Nullifiers should be allowed to cancel Focus passive effects or power effects from sources outside of Warframes. That would be too broken for an enemy.

Just to clarify, im talking about just disabling the invisibility if you enter their bubble not the passive as a whole so if you get out of the nullifier bubble and perform a critical you will get the invisibility again.

[mike167890]

with the acolytes mods low base crit weapons  with 5%-12.5% can do  35%-50%

i understand where your coming from saying you may not want to have  a crit on your weapon or setup ,but to me stealth is a critical damage game-play style.

  

Edited August 2, 2016 by mike167890

[horcruxpotter]

I think this is an interesting idea, but invisibility time might not make melee gameplay viable at high levels.

For example: You're playing against lvl 100 enemies in a survival mission and you're trying the "sword alone" style. A few bullets (or one bombard rocket) will put you on your knees, and instinctively you'll roll / bullet jump /back flip /double jump out of danger, they won't target you anymore for a brief moment, but then again when you roll is finished, you're vulnerable again, and since you want to come close to them to hit them with your melee, chances are you are going to get hit hard again and will have to resort to more maneuvers to stay safe, and the more you do it the less time you spend trying to actually kill the enemies. If you don't kill them fast enough, you won't get enough life support, and this will ultimately cost you the match. It does work great in lower level though, because of the low armor / shield ratings of enemies. It would also work amazingly powerful for gunplay, since you don't have to be close to them, but Narramon is about melee after all, and not to mention this will indirectly limit melee gameplay to tanky warframes only.

Maybe we can choose a middle ground that fits both lower and higher levels of gameplay? Maybe invisibility should stay on for 3 - 5 seconds? so It gives you enough time to hack and slash your enemies, taking advantage of the stealth damage multiplier.

What do you think?

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, horcruxpotter said:

I think this is an interesting idea, but invisibility time might not make melee gameplay viable at high levels.

For example: You're playing against lvl 100 enemies in a survival mission and you're trying the "sword alone" style. A few bullets (or one bombard rocket) will put you on your knees, and instinctively you'll roll / bullet jump /back flip /double jump out of danger, they won't target you anymore for a brief moment, but then again when you roll is finished, you're vulnerable again, and since you want to come close to them to hit them with your melee, chances are you are going to get hit hard again and will have to resort to more maneuvers to stay safe, and the more you do it the less time you spend trying to actually kill the enemies. If you don't kill them fast enough, you won't get enough life support, and this will ultimately cost you the match. It does work great in lower level though, because of the low armor / shield ratings of enemies. It would also work amazingly powerful for gunplay, since you don't have to be close to them, but Narramon is about melee after all, and not to mention this will indirectly limit melee gameplay to tanky warframes only.

Maybe we can choose a middle ground that fits both lower and higher levels of gameplay? Maybe invisibility should stay on for 3 - 5 seconds? so It gives you enough time to hack and slash your enemies, taking advantage of the stealth damage multiplier.

What do you think?

This is actually in the OP already because someone else suggested it too.

[King]

Instead of changing Shadow Step, why not adding a new focus skill?

Make it branches from Strategic Execution so new players can choose which to level first and the old timers won't feel like getting #*($%%@ in the &#! trolled.

[Epsik-kun]

11 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

it can be viewed as a trade off too

It can't unless you view switching from Soma Prime to MK1-Strun as a trade off too. "you trade raw dps for the fact you're using a shotgun now".

12 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Not useless

It is useless. Rolling has quite limited uses already, namely speed bursts and 80% damage reduction frames. It will be a trade off compared to regular rolling - you'll get higher mobility and less protected frames. Not something worth of leveling a whole Focus branch for.

21 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

This is a terrible way to make a point to be frank

And that's a terrible attempt of avoiding that point. In current mechanics there are no uses for split-seconds invisibility save for fully-stealthed missions where it can be used for moving through LoS of an enemy without breaking the stealth. Period. No other applications. At all. You can't argue with that - it's a fact. And yes, there's no objective point in waiting like 5 minutes to proc Naramon for invisible rolls, when you can use a frame with an actual invisibility skill instead.

27 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

from my experience

You can't have any "experience" in resetting targeting, because in this game there are no skills like that. Meanwhile enemies don't have "aggro" you can break. They are either alerted and always know your precise location or are calm and don't care about you. Unless you forcefully put every single enemy on the map into that "calm" state, they'll immediately fire at you as soon as you'll leave invisibility. And your invisibility will only last a fraction of a second. It won't be even enough for that Tech over there to start spooling his Supra once again. Vast majority of the time however, you won't see any difference in enemies' behavior.

If you forcefully put enemies into that "calm" state, rolling will result in massive AI glitches in multiplayer and will feel incredibly stupid flavor-wise.

What you are thinking about is the behavior of the usual invisibility, when the enemy is perfectly and fully aware of your precise position, but simply stops attacking you because you're invisible.

28 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

I wouldn't call something consistent if there is a 10% chance to activate it

You wouldn't but it is. 10% chance is plenty to consistently have Shadow Step on.

30 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Having "essentially immortality" is not the point of Shadow Step

Yeah it isn't. Point of Shadow Step is to provide resetable invisibility with considerable duration. And invisibility just happened to be "essentially immortality" in this game.

31 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Invisibility isn't mandatory at all. 

And that's my friend is your "opinion". I want to see you trying melee stuff level 200+ with x3 damage modifier without using invisibility. And please, no need for Mercury arguments. There are ways to play this game for which invisibility is mandatory. It's a fact.

40 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

I think this idea would work fine.

For the idea of cloaked rolls to work you will need global changes in the game mechanics. First and foremost, enemies will have to rely on their actual LoS all of the time, which they currently don't. Second, you'll need to completely rework "alerted" AI, because as of now, there's no "confused" state for the enemy. Third, you'll have to rework current targeting AI to be able to actually work with your rolls.

By doing that you'll give your invisible rolls an actual effect, because otherwise they'll have none.

Next you'll need to justify leveling a whole Focus branch just for the sake of cloaked rolls, because  their use will still be very niche and underwhelming. This one is easier - for instance you might have chain rolls to provide constant invisibility, while forcing the first melee attack out of roll to have a stealth damage modifier. Still underwhelming compared to the current Naramon, but at least it's somewhat justified.

47 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

I disagree with Naramon being fine

Naramon is fine. Because if Naramon isn't fine it means every single frame that has access to invisibility isn't fine either. And while it's actually pretty much true, it isn't problem of Naramon - it's a problem of a faulty game mechanics. Current absurd scaling should be actually normalized and then enemy should get a massive AI update against invisibility which should include not standing still like retards when something mows down your comrades.

[Bizzaro21]

if u ask me i think its fine as is, considering its un-nullifiable, and is pretty handy/fun to use, and it doesnt favor any melee for me as i use maiming strike on every single melee, now i get that this mod is rare af and not a lot of ppl have it, but im saying my case here 

[EmptyDevil]

11 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

-snip-

Seems to me like you're taking a different topic and applying it to this one. This isn't the place for enemy scaling debates or justifying the use of 'cheese' methods to contend with lv200 enemies. My advice to you, stay within the realm of logic and reason. DE does not intend for us to beat or play against lv200 enemies, they balance the game around lv100 being the 'endgame' level for enemies. If they were to use your logic and build every ability to trivialize lv200 enemies, the game would be so ridiculously easy that they might as well add a 'win' button.

If you would like to discuss the intended level for us to play against and why we need specific tactics, then make a thread for it.

[Epsik-kun]

Just now, EmptyDevil said:

they balance the game around lv100

I think I just asked you to not bring up Mercury, didn't I? Also, it seems to me, you are avoiding the discussion you've started yourself after finding a small and insignificant part you can use a loose workaround against when you've been explicitly asked not to.

1 minute ago, EmptyDevil said:

If they were to use your logic

I never said to trivialize enemies of level 200. I only said what I have said.

5 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

DE does not intend for us

I highly doubt you're in position to judge what DE do or do not intend.

[EmptyDevil]

15 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

I think I just asked you to not bring up Mercury, didn't I? Also, it seems to me, you are avoiding the discussion you've started yourself after finding a small and insignificant part you can use a loose workaround against when you've been explicitly asked not to.

Didn't mention Mercury, so let's keep that elitist attitude out of here.

15 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

I never said to trivialize enemies of level 200. I only said what I have said.

The only way to deal with level 200 enemies and not die is by trivializing them.

15 minutes ago, Epsik-kun said:

I highly doubt you're in position to judge what DE do or do not intend.

Obviously. I'm pretty sure DE has said that is what they balance around in a devstream or a tweet.

I'm going to ask you to stop trying to derail this thread into a petty argument now. Try making a suggestion that may improve the idea instead, if you don't have one, you can move on since you expressed your opinion.

Edited August 2, 2016 by EmptyDevil