Let's talk snipers.

[TotallyLagging]

Copied from one of my old posts with edits here and there so it doesn't look like a jumbled mess someone posted at 3 AM in the morning.

 

First, let me list down some problems with the sniper rework.

 

1. Zoom levels 

Zoom levels are nice, but unfortunately it doesn't have a place in Warframe. We don't need this. And yet if I don't use the highest zoom level I'm gimping myself because the highest stat bonus is tied on the highest zoom level. And using the highest zoom level is pointless in this game. Half the time you're fighting inside a ship or an enclosed area. Let zoom levels be zoom level and just put the bonuses on the sniper itself. Forcing people to use the new feature ain't cool DE.

2. Hipfire accuracy nerf

Why the hell did they implement this? Wasn't this an ancient 'feature' that they removed way back then because it sucked? I feel like with the return of this and Shock Eximus ( ... that they have thankfully fixed ) they just forgot all the terrible stuff that they intentionally removed due to community demand because they sucked so much. We can fire 4 barrel shotguns and rocket launchers with pinpoint accuracy for f**k's sake. And the spread is ridiculous. I'm talking shotgun-level spread here. Go grab a Lanka, put split chamber and hipfire. See for yourself. I've died trying to hipfire nullfiers with my Lanka only to miss when I'm literally 5 meters away from the target.

3. Aim sway

Wait, so hold on, with the hipfire accuracy nerf and zoom level bonuses you basically want us to use the scope. Is that it? Then why did you add aim sway? Where is the logic behind this? Why do snipers, a weapon category of precision weapons, have aim sway and rocket frigging launchers don't? Why can I comfortably swing around a Supra, a giant laser-firing brick only used by Corpus heavies, and not hold a sniper steadily? 

Oh, and I've also noticed that some sniper shots miss even when I'm literally aiming at someone's face and not moving.

Yay, more bugs I guess.

4. Combo counter

Now, this feature is heading on the right direction. But obviously it has its own issues.

So a damage multiplier counted after all of your other mods? Holy sh*t, that's nice! Except you probably won't see the number increase beyond 2.0x unless you use Magnetize + Lanka. You lose all of your multiplier on missed shots. You also lose your multiplier after a certain amount of time, which differs from sniper to sniper. And as you already know, pretty much every single sniper is f**ked except for the Lanka. Lanka has a very forgiving time window of 10 seconds. It also has innate punch-through of 5 meters. Rubico and Vulkar can't even enjoy their bonuses since their multiplier time is shorter than their reload times. Even with Primed Fast Hands, a band-aid mod that costs 528 cores, you only have around 1.1s to shoot someone and keep that combo counter up. 

5. No stat buffs?

One thing that we always complain about snipers is the fact that they're inferior to bows, both stat-wise and mechanically. I can't kill anything consistently on long missions. And my most used sniper is the Vectis/Prime which is about the only sniper quick enough to pull out another shot should I fail to crit on my earlier shots. Which, mind you, happens quite often because I only have 62.5% crit chance. The reason why people love the Lanka was because it has crit chance bonus on its zoom level, and is pretty much the only sniper with reliable crit chance. The others? They're held down by ridiculously long reloads, small mag size, and no innate punch-through. This is why Snipetron Vandal is highly sought after in the market. Not just because it's an exclusive weapon with sh*t drop rates on Sorties, but because even with its somewhat mediocre stats, it has innate-punchthrough and all around more reliable than almost every single sniper in the game bar the Lanka and Vectis/Prime. 

"Just use Argon Scope!" you say, well...

6. Harkonar Scope, and other band-aid mods.

I've made a thread on this before. But band-aid mods is and will always be a garbage solution. Body Count? Blood Rush? Those could've been implemented on the melee system instead of mods. And that's melee, which is fairly straightforward to build. On snipers? There's hardly any room for utility mods without completely gimping your already unreliable damage. Making a Body Count + Blood Rush for sniper won't fix anything. 

7. Making certain gamemodes that emphasize sniper use.

Not actually an existing problem, but I've seen this suggested so many times in here and I have to say, no. Limiting it into one, specialzed game mode doesn't fix anything. It won't see any use outside of said gamemode, which is something that they should've achieved with the rework.

 

"So, random dude on the random internet, do you have any solution to this or are you just gonna whine on every single sniper thread out there?"

Well, I do have one solution in mind. One that is really simple, something that DE has done before. Remember the shotgun update?

Do you see the wonders that they did with shotguns? Do you see how shotguns, who were considered garbage, become viable on high levels in a single patch? Do you see any terribly implemented mechanic on that shotgun buff? And do you see shotguns completely dominating other weapon categories? No? Then that's my solution. Buff them. At a reasonable level, of course.

Give them consistent crit. Give them innate punchthough or another way to deal with crowds like Sobek's Acid Shells. "But what about Snipetron Vandal?" you ask, "It'll lose its only selling point!"

Are you serious? Just give it another gimmick. They have the time to think of combo counters and bringing (crappy) old sniper mechanics back, I'm sure thinking another gimmick for a single weapon wouldn't be a problem for DE. 

 

TL;DR - Snipers still suck, rework is garbage, please don't ignore it for another year again.

Also I didn't see that sniper thread that's just right below this thread. Woopsie doopsie.

Edited August 8, 2016 by TotallyLagging

[Update]

Nice Wall of text

I agree with what you Said.

 

All we need is:

Snipers Ignore Enemy Armor

Snipers Ignore Enemy Shield

Maybe it would be Op..

 

[(PSN)ManOfFailures]

1.this seems like the developers are trying to reward you for longer shots, but I agree that it is stupid

2.I have never seen a game where snipers would have good hip-fire accuracy and I don't think that we need snipers to be used in the same manner as slug shotguns.                                   Perhaps the accuracy could be a bit better since you can miss from 0.5 meters away, but no too much

3. Sway is natural because your character need to breath...oh wait you don't.

This is propably used to make the snipers seem like a skill based weapon but sadly they don't do enough damage to actually need this. Either they need a buff or the sway needs to go.

4.you are rewarded for being efficient and fast, thats good, but I agree that the timer should be longer. Perhaps we will get a sniper version of body count or an actual buff.

 5.yes snipers could have better stats and I love when people say something like "you need ____ to make this weapon viable" but when it applies to every weapon in the class it is just sad.

6. If I remember correctly it has been stated that weapon mods are being looked at, pure damage mods becoming innate for example. This might not remove the problem of band-aid mods but it's a start

7.silenced sniper in a spy mission, capture target(if snipers would do higher damage), boss battle if you have another player distracting the boss(again damage). There are uses for snipers in many missions but snipers are shadowed by every most other weapons due to their stats.

A higher crit chance would make snipers better, but would that make players take them into end game content like sorties?

[Prime]

my lanka shoots in curves on hipfire xD

[-Shattered-]

32 minutes ago, TotallyLagging said:

Copied from one of my old posts with edits here and there so it doesn't look like a jumbled mess someone posted at 3 AM in the morning.

 

First, let me list down some problems with the sniper rework.

 

1. Zoom levels 

Zoom levels are nice, but unfortunately it doesn't have a place in Warframe. We don't need this. And yet if I don't use the highest zoom level I'm gimping myself because the highest stat bonus is tied on the highest zoom level. And using the highest zoom level is pointless in this game. Half the time you're fighting inside a ship or an enclosed area. Let zoom levels be zoom level and just put the bonuses on the sniper itself. Forcing people to use the new feature ain't cool DE.

2. Hipfire accuracy nerf

Why the hell did they implement this? Wasn't this an ancient 'feature' that they removed way back then because it sucked? I feel like with the return of this and Shock Eximus ( ... that they have thankfully fixed ) they just forgot all the terrible stuff that they intentionally removed due to community demand because they sucked so much. We can fire 4 barrel shotguns and rocket launchers with pinpoint accuracy for f**k's sake. And the spread is ridiculous. I'm talking shotgun-level spread here. Go grab a Lanka, put split chamber and hipfire. See for yourself. I've died trying to hipfire nullfiers with my Lanka only to miss when I'm literally 5 meters away from the target.

3. Aim sway

Wait, so hold on, with the hipfire accuracy nerf and zoom level bonuses you basically want us to use the scope. Is that it? Then why did you add aim sway? Where is the logic behind this? Why do snipers, a weapon category of precision weapons, have aim sway and rocket frigging launchers don't? Why can I comfortably swing around a Supra, a giant laser-firing brick only used by Corpus heavies, and not hold a sniper steadily? 

Oh, and I've also noticed that some sniper shots miss even when I'm literally aiming at someone's face and not moving.

Yay, more bugs I guess.

4. Combo counter

Now, this feature is heading on the right direction. But obviously it has its own issues.

So a damage multiplier counted after all of your other mods? Holy sh*t, that's nice! Except you probably won't see the number increase beyond 2.0x unless you use Magnetize + Lanka. You lose all of your multiplier on missed shots. You also lose your multiplier after a certain amount of time, which differs from sniper to sniper. And as you already know, pretty much every single sniper is f**ked except for the Lanka. Lanka has a very forgiving time window of 10 seconds. It also has innate punch-through of 5 meters. Rubico and Vulkar can't even enjoy their bonuses since their multiplier time is shorter than their reload times. Even with Primed Fast Hands, a band-aid mod that costs 528 cores, you only have around 1.1s to shoot someone and keep that combo counter up. 

5. No stat buffs?

One thing that we always complain about snipers is the fact that they're inferior to bows, both stat-wise and mechanically. I can't kill anything consistently on long missions. And my most used sniper is the Vectis/Prime which is about the only sniper quick enough to pull out another shot should I fail to crit on my earlier shots. Which, mind you, happens quite often because I only have 62.5% crit chance. The reason why people love the Lanka was because it has crit chance bonus on its zoom level, and is pretty much the only sniper with reliable crit chance. The others? They're held down by ridiculously long reloads, small mag size, and no innate punch-through. This is why Snipetron Vandal is highly sought after in the market. Not just because it's an exclusive weapon with sh*t drop rates on Sorties, but because even with its somewhat mediocre stats, it has innate-punchthrough and all around more reliable than almost every single sniper in the game bar the Lanka and Vectis/Prime. 

"Just use Argon Scope!" you say, well...

6. Harkonar Scope, and other band-aid mods.

I've made a thread on this before. But band-aid mods is and will always be a garbage solution. Body Count? Blood Rush? Those could've been implemented on the melee system instead of mods. And that's melee, which is fairly straightforward to build. On snipers? There's hardly any room for utility mods without completely gimping your already unreliable damage. Making a Body Count + Blood Rush for sniper won't fix anything. 

7. Making certain gamemodes that emphasize sniper use.

Not actually an existing problem, but I've seen this suggested so many times in here and I have to say, no. Limiting it into one, specialzed game mode doesn't fix anything. It won't see any use outside of said gamemode, which is something that they should've achieved with the rework.

 

"So, random dude on the random internet, do you have any solution to this or are you just gonna whine on every single sniper thread out there?"

Well, I do have one solution in mind. One that is really simple, something that DE has done before. Remember the shotgun update?

Do you see the wonders that they did with shotguns? Do you see how shotguns, who were considered garbage, become viable on high levels in a single patch? Do you see any terribly implemented mechanic on that shotgun buff? And do you see shotguns completely dominating other weapon categories? No? Then that's my solution. Buff them. At a reasonable level, of course.

Give them consistent crit. Give them innate punchthough or another way to deal with crowds like Sobek's Acid Shells. "But what about Snipetron Vandal?" you ask, "It'll lose its only selling point!"

Are you serious? Just give it another gimmick. They have the time to think of combo counters and bringing (crappy) old sniper mechanics back, I'm sure thinking another gimmick for a single weapon wouldn't be a problem for DE. 

 

TL;DR - Snipers still suck, rework is garbage, please don't ignore it for another year again.

Also I didn't see that sniper thread that's just right below this thread. Woopsie doopsie.

1. The zoom levels are still needed in some levels like the Corpus one in a middle of snowy terrain. In the ship, I used the scope to scout out first or supporting my team from afar. Maybe they can change the crit bonus on every zoom level to like "utility" one (fire rate, accuracy, recoil, etc).

2. I got to agree that the decreased hipfire accuracy is annoying. I hope they can remove it for the sake of close combat (if you dont have time to pull out your pistol or melee weapon.

3. Like other games, the more you zoom the scope, the more sway you get. I think this is not bother me at all. (Its not a bug, maybe you missed a pixel or RNG hates you XD)

4. I dont mind the 2.0 x multiplier.

5. Mostly agree with you that sniper rifle needs more crit and a punch through innate.

6. No comment because i dont understand what you said XD

7. If they really want to put this weapon only mode, give it a spacious area or less enemy to be taken because as you said, sniper rifle really lacks on crowd control or taking down a horde of enemy. But then, sniper rifle was created to take down priority target with high damage (should they buff it as needed as possible), not to take down a horde (unless you attach it with a Tonkor.....).

Really hopes that DE can bring sniper rifle into a good place like they did to shotgun.

[(PSN)ManOfFailures]

8 minutes ago, Prime said:

my lanka shoots in curves on hipfire xD

The bullets spin so quickly that it affects the trajectory?

[TotallyLagging]

2 minutes ago, MichaelMW28 said:

1. The zoom levels are still needed in some levels like the Corpus one in a middle of snowy terrain. In the ship, I used the scope to scout out first or supporting my team from afar. Maybe they can change the crit bonus on every zoom level to like "utility" one (fire rate, accuracy, recoil, etc).

I never said that we should remove zoom levels entirely, I just want them to remove the buff from scopes and just put it on the sniper itself.

Also, I wouldn't mind a little bit of aim sway if not for the fact that only snipers have it. Ogris? Supra? All that heavy weapons? They don't have those. And for some reason snipers do.

Edited August 8, 2016 by TotallyLagging

[-Shattered-]

10 minutes ago, Prime said:

my lanka shoots in curves on hipfire xD

and that's how you play Lunaro with a Lanka :D

[-Shattered-]

Just now, TotallyLagging said:

I never said that we should remove zoom levels entirely, I just want them to remove the buff from scopes and just put it on the sniper itself.

oh, my misunderstanding XD

english is not my language. my mistake.

[Prime]

Just now, (PS4)pastard323 said:

The bullets spin so quickly that it affects the trajectory?

idk, all I care about is killing enemies that run to my left while shooting at enemies that are infront of me xD

[Datsher]

27 minutes ago, TotallyLagging said:

-snip-

1+2+3. I completely agree.

4. The problem with the combo counter is, just as you said, there isn't enough room to actually make something of it. Every sniper is built for crit, yet can only achieve 62,5 percent without argon scope. Building full damage is worse. Adding something like Harkonar scope is complete nonsense because A) it only works while scoping and B) there's no place to fit it.

As you said, most weapons can't even use their multiplier because after reloading, it's gone. The SnipetronV used to be a really good weapon for the combo counter because of innate punchthrough and stacking the counter very fast (the steps being 1-3-6). But then DE nerfed it for some reason, even though you lost your combo after reloading if you didn't know what you were doing.

5. Yeah, Snipers need either 100% crit or 0% crit with extreme base damage. Snipers need to be reliable, consistent. 

Yeah, Snipetron Vandal needs another gimmick, or just give it it's old combo counter back along with other buffs.

6. Yes, bandaid mods are no solution.

 

[TotallyLagging]

49 minutes ago, (PS4)pastard323 said:

1.this seems like the developers are trying to reward you for longer shots, but I agree that it is stupid

2.I have never seen a game where snipers would have good hip-fire accuracy and I don't think that we need snipers to be used in the same manner as slug shotguns.                                   Perhaps the accuracy could be a bit better since you can miss from 0.5 meters away, but no too much

3. Sway is natural because your character need to breath...oh wait you don't.

This is propably used to make the snipers seem like a skill based weapon but sadly they don't do enough damage to actually need this. Either they need a buff or the sway needs to go.

4.you are rewarded for being efficient and fast, thats good, but I agree that the timer should be longer. Perhaps we will get a sniper version of body count or an actual buff.

 5.yes snipers could have better stats and I love when people say something like "you need ____ to make this weapon viable" but when it applies to every weapon in the class it is just sad.

6. If I remember correctly it has been stated that weapon mods are being looked at, pure damage mods becoming innate for example. This might not remove the problem of band-aid mods but it's a start

7.silenced sniper in a spy mission, capture target(if snipers would do higher damage), boss battle if you have another player distracting the boss(again damage). There are uses for snipers in many missions but snipers are shadowed by every most other weapons due to their stats.

A higher crit chance would make snipers better, but would that make players take them into end game content like sorties?

2. I'll give you an example. Warframe. Pre U18.

Yeah, this game had that. And I want it back.

3. Like I said, literally the only weapon type that has aim sway is snipers. If I can hold heavy weapons just fine, there's 0 reason why snipers should ever have this.

4. Being rewarded is one thing. Severely punishing you for making a single mistake though, is an entirely different thing. Before the actual change was implemented I was excited because I used to play a game with a similar concept ( Zer0's Critical Acclaim from Borderlands 2 ) and the stacks on that game is less punishing ( It decays instead of disappearing entirely ) and is really, really powerful ( You can solo raids with it ) compared to the unpolished system that we get.

7. Bows are miles better for stealth with their better stats, they're innately silent and won't screw you up because you'll never miss a crit.

[Bipp]

+1 Snipers feel absolutely terrible to use.

I was doing the sortie yesterday (#2, Interception, Snipers Only) so I took my Vulkar Wraith.

Jeez that thing couldn't hit the Gherkin from 10m away.

Every time I scope in the bullets go flipping sideways.

gg

[Kate_Treik]

My Lanka cryiing tears of joy, that's we're not alone in that cruel world of Soma's and Tonkor's.

As sb said above, snipers need: ignore armor/shield OR huge damage with 0 crits OR 100% crits AND remove that stupid sway. 

[K4r4k4s4]

Since when all sniper rifles have awful accuracy wihtout using the scope? If multishot equipped, 1 of 2 bullets ALWAYS miss for about 15 degrees from the crosshair. If multishot not equipped then bullet has approx. 70% chance to miss. And it's without heavy caliber, I dont even tested with it.
Vectis now literally unusable for hipfire.

There was many topics across the forum about buffing snipees especially make more convenient, reduce reload time or buff magazine or change combo mechanic and everything ended than? Even more nerfd?

Edited August 10, 2016 by K4r4k4s4

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

I just spent the last hour playing with the rubico I had sitting around. I found some great places to use it, "sniper perches", with some not so great places and found out that if you are far enough away, hush doesn't matter or need to exist as a mod. And that distance isn't that far. I also realised that Loki's hush on his invisibility is far superior to Banshees passive, that doesn't even work outside of silience, which is how it always worked to begin with anyways...did DE just pull a chroma?]

Banshees passive is silence on her weapons while using silence? That is super super super super lame. Because Loki does it as well.

Also, using Loki's wall cling passive, or really just wall  clinging can get overly complicated because of the sloth like speed the scope moves at when zoomed in (but that could be a sensitivity issue on my side)

And then of course the scope sway didn't seem that bad at first, which is weird because it got real bad later on in the mission, I wasn't sure if it was the distance of the enemies, or some fatigue mechanic, or my self not paying attention at first...

Enemies are instantly aware of your surroundings, even if you are 20 matters away behind a pillar (Banshee and her lame passive)...unless you become invisible right after they see you, then they are clueless as to where you are (loki, right in front of a bombard)...

Eh, snipers need more work, but it is kind of entertaining. I wouldn't trust my life or a serious mission on a sniper

[TotallyLagging]

6 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

And then of course the scope sway didn't seem that bad at first, which is weird because it got real bad later on in the mission, I wasn't sure if it was the distance of the enemies, or some fatigue mechanic, or my self not paying attention at first...

Sniper shots tend to randomly miss after the update so it might have been that.