My Thoughts On The State Of Conclave

[Master-Nachash]

Conclave barely rewards skill. Instead, it rewards cheese.

It rewards people for having the "best" loadouts possible. Or in a lot of cases, the most obscenely overpowered loadouts possible. The ones that make you almost unstoppable.

It rewards people for investing in the game, rather than rewarding them for being skilled players.

After months of playing, I've come to realise that conclave isn't fair at all. To sum it up, it's a mode where regular players who've invested a lot of time or money in the game play to basically farm "casuals" and / or new players, or players who just don't have the time or money to gain the kind of equipment that they have. It's a mode where the haves farm the have-nots and where the haves also play to feel a sense of dominance over the have-nots despite the fact that their supposed dominance doesn't usually come from skill, but rather comes from just having better equipment and knowing how to use it to ensure easy wins. 

I have a feeling that this is intentional, that conclave was made to be this way so that anyone who enjoys it, that has time and / or resources, feels compelled to pool even more of their time and / or resources into the game just so they can have a chance at actually getting somewhere in conclave, and so they feel compelled to do it faster for conclave much faster than they would for anything to do with PVE. Likely resulting in more money for DE, because the fastest way to get the best stuff and dominate in conclave is to buy plat.

In my opinion, conclave should be mostly about skill, and the only way for it to be fun for everyone is to create more of an emphasis on skill and less of an emphasis on cheese. But unfortunately I cannot see that happening as technically speaking, DE actually benefits from the imbalance and the unfairness because as I've stated, it will bring them more revenue.

[ScorpioneITA]

12 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

In my opinion, conclave should be mostly about skill, and the only way for it to be fun for everyone is to create more of an emphasis on skill and less of an emphasis on cheese. But unfortunately I cannot see that happening as technically speaking, DE actually benefits from the imbalance and the unfairness because as I've stated, it will bring them more revenue.

Just lol? How much revenue do you think warframe makes from conclave? hahaha. Best joke I heard all day. I'm in tears. Somebody stop him

Also, if you cannot see something happening. Why are you suggesting on what they should do?

People that just want to farm xyz will always make your games less fun. Regardless of the mode. If someone is superbad... no equipment will make up for that. (also pvp should be about fun and battling... who cares win lose etc.)

Edited September 11, 2016 by ScorpioneITA

[Pythadragon]

Please define "Best loadouts possible".

One of my favorite loadouts is a Strun, a Lato, and a Tipedo.

All weapons are balanced. Primes are sidegrades.

Skill is THE defining factor of conclave.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Pythadragon

[VoidProdigy]

Just now, ScorpioneITA said:

Just lol? How much revenue do you think warframe makes from conclave? hahaha. Best joke I heard all day. I'm in tears. Somebody stop him

Also, if you cannot see something happening. Why are you suggesting on what they should do?

People that just want to farm xyz will always make your games less fun. Regardless of the mode. If someone is superbad... no equipment will make up for that. (also pvp should be about fun and battling... who cares win lose etc.)

No dude, i've played enough Conclave to safely say that players play it to win. Damn, is OP correct, i've seen the cheesiest of the cheese loadouts from players.

[(PSN)bddacres]

1 minute ago, Pythadragon said:

Please define "Best loadouts possible".

One of my favorite loadouts is a Strun, a Lato, and a Tipedo.

All weapons are balanced. Primes are sidegrades.

Well stated...

I run a Grinlok, furis, darka

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

I believe (imo) that there is definitely skill in conclave. I know of players who have 4 or 5 thousand kills and have all the weapons I have at MR 19 available to them and they have the mods that anyone would need to (as they have been outfitted) but they still have not improved and they still cannot use the same loadout that a skilled player can despite the fact that these players bring the same loadout and same mod setup on those loadouts into conclave. There is always skill. If there were no skill than by definition 2 players who both bring weapon A into conclave with the same mods will perform the same but this is just not the case. I see plenty of people who bring the Daikyu (which many people consider OP) but 90% of these Daikyu players do not perform well, at least on Xbox One. Yet they bring the same loadouts into conclave because they believe by doing that they'll just do better. But the truth is without skill no matter what loadout or mods you bring into conclave you won't do well.

Also just to make another point I personally have a clan member in my clan who has about 10,500 kills and only 1,900 deaths. He does not even put mods on his frame nor does he use melee. Some of his builds have primaries who are only modded with basic mods that is cheap to get in conclave in terms of standings. But he moves very, very, very well and is a very skilled shot while on the move. And this alone makes a huge difference for him. Just something to consider.

Edited September 11, 2016 by (XB1)Lorewalker1022

[NeithanDiniem]

What are you using that plat to get an advantage in conclave with again? Plenty of the easily obtained weapons work incredibly well in PvP.

[SevenLetterKWord]

Quite the accusatory post you've got here.
I see a lot of conspiracy-theory speculation, a lot of complaint-regurgitation, and no actual evidence.
 

27 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Conclave barely rewards skill. Instead, it rewards cheese.

You say "cheese, cheese, cheese", but not once do you specify what you mean by it.
You keep referring to "overpowered loadouts", but you've failed to identify any such loadout.

These are generic copy-paste complaints.
These are the complaints spawned by rationalization.
"My performance is not meeting my expectations. There must be something wrong with the game."

Edited September 11, 2016 by Knaimhe

[Master-Nachash]

9 minutes ago, ScorpioneITA said:

Just lol? How much revenue do you think warframe makes from conclave? hahaha. Best joke I heard all day. I'm in tears. Somebody stop him

Also, if you cannot see something happening. Why are you suggesting on what they should do?

People that just want to farm xyz will always make your games less fun. Regardless of the mode. If someone is superbad... no equipment will make up for that. (also pvp should be about fun and battling... who cares win lose etc.)

Laugh at and ridicule me all you want, I've not said or even implied that I think DE gains a good amount of revenue from conclave. What I'm saying is that conclave has been set up in a way that makes it so new players have two options. They can either ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist because they get their asses handed to them constantly which isn't fun whatsoever. Which is what most players do. And perhaps wait until they've amassed an armory that allows them to put up a decent fight against regulars (which would likely take them a couple of months at least if they're fresh players). Or, they could invest heavily, they could either farm and grind day in and day out just so they can have a chance at countering cheesy loadouts, or instead of farming / grinding, they could simply take the easy way out and purchase plat.

So yeah, like I said, I've not said or implied that I think DE gains a good amount of revenue from conclave, but I'd be willing to bet that because of the way conclave is set up, that a good amount of players have felt compelled to invest either more time or money, to be able to farm new players and / or be an actual challenge for regulars.

I play conclave every day, and from what I've seen there's a massive divide between players. You either have fresh players with "noob" loadouts or you have experienced players with the same cheesy loadouts. There isn't really any kind of middle ground, and this supports my point. If you play conclave regularly you'd recognise this too.

[Letter13]

Thread cleaned. Please refrain from quoting posts which are obviously rule breaking, as doing so will result in your own post being removed as well.

[Master-Nachash]

32 minutes ago, Pythadragon said:

Please define "Best loadouts possible".

One of my favorite loadouts is a Strun, a Lato, and a Tipedo.

All weapons are balanced. Primes are sidegrades.

Skill is THE defining factor of conclave.

Skill is a factor, but it's not THE defining factor of conclave. Cheese is.

There's not much you can do against a full squad of rhino primes spamming iron skin + jet kitty or lokis spamming their aimbot decoys en masse while running around invisible, oh, also jet kitty spamming. You might catch them off guard now and then but generally speaking they will absolutely wreck you no matter how skilled you are.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Master-Nachash

[Master-Nachash]

31 minutes ago, ---AweSomeXaV--- said:

No dude, i've played enough Conclave to safely say that players play it to win. Damn, is OP correct, i've seen the cheesiest of the cheese loadouts from players.

Yeah man, in almost every match all players have the typical cheesy loadouts, maybe with slight variations occasionally but mostly the same. It's very rare you see a player using something that's not cheese, especially when you get to the last couple of ranks with Teshin and can't use recruit conditioning anymore. 

A lot of the time as well, even when they're not using cheese. If they're losing, THEY SWITCH TO CHEESE. Because they know it'll ensure them an easy win.

[ScorpioneITA]

3 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Laugh at and ridicule me all you want, I've not said or even implied that I think DE gains a good amount of revenue from conclave. What I'm saying is that conclave has been set up in a way that makes it so new players have two options. They can either ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist because they get their asses handed to them constantly which isn't fun whatsoever. Which is what most players do. And perhaps wait until they've amassed an armory that allows them to put up a decent fight against regulars (which would likely take them a couple of months at least if they're fresh players). Or, they could invest heavily, they could either farm and grind day in and day out just so they can have a chance at countering cheesy loadouts, or instead of farming / grinding, they could simply take the easy way out and purchase plat.

So yeah, like I said, I've not said or implied that I think DE gains a good amount of revenue from conclave, but I'd be willing to bet that because of the way conclave is set up, that a good amount of players have felt compelled to invest either more time or money, to be able to farm new players and / or be an actual challenge for regulars.

I play conclave every day, and from what I've seen there's a massive divide between players. You either have fresh players with "noob" loadouts or you have experienced players with the same cheesy loadouts. There isn't really any kind of middle ground, and this supports my point. If you play conclave regularly you'd recognise this too.

You're literally describing most MMORPGS. There are very very few games that have both PvE and PvP also allow you to scale well by just doing one and then switching. Games are usually focused on PvE or PvP I've seen this often in games such as wow people going full on PvE nerd and have the sickest PvP equip before PvPers. I've also seen more PvP focused games that allowed ''experience'' gained way faster with PvP thus not allowing PvErs to even be able to compete. It is way to complex to find a system that works fairly for both. Unless you think Rust is the perfect game for both PvE / PvP.

Your last point has to do with match making. There's no match making system. Therefore you cannot really complain about match making being unfair, as it is non existent

What are these cheese you speak of? The skills of warframes? Let the skill run out, get a bigger gun/better frame, headshotem, or invest time to farm decent weapons/frames etc. Of course if people feel they want something... and they don't want to farm it... buying it is a fair way of eliminating the procedure. Playing this game because of its great PvP balance... your own fault if you ever thought that.

[Phasedragon]

2 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Laugh at and ridicule me all you want, I've not said or even implied that I think DE gains a good amount of revenue from conclave. What I'm saying is that conclave has been set up in a way that makes it so new players have two options. They can either ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist because they get their asses handed to them constantly which isn't fun whatsoever. Which is what most players do. And perhaps wait until they've amassed an armory that allows them to put up a decent fight against regulars (which would likely take them a couple of months at least if they're fresh players). Or, they could invest heavily, they could either farm and grind day in and day out just so they can have a chance at countering cheesy loadouts, or instead of farming / grinding, they could simply take the easy way out and purchase plat.

So yeah, like I said, I've not said or implied that I think DE gains a good amount of revenue from conclave, but I'd be willing to bet that because of the way conclave is set up, that a good amount of players have felt compelled to invest either more time or money, to be able to farm new players and / or be an actual challenge for regulars.

I play conclave every day, and from what I've seen there's a massive divide between players. You either have fresh players with "noob" loadouts or you have experienced players with the same cheesy loadouts. There isn't really any kind of middle ground, and this supports my point. If you play conclave regularly you'd recognise this too.

And what about the large number of players who can get the same high score using basically any loadout? Are you conveniently ignoring them or do you think that a mk1 braton is cheese? There are tons of weapons that work well in conclave, and while there are a few cheese things still out there, they are in the significant minority.

 

Yes, iron skin is a bit OP. There's already been a thread about that. But rhino is one of the first frames you get, so it's not like that's pay to win either. On top of that, there are ways to counter iron skin in the meantime; mag and nekros can steal energy so they cant cast it, while banshee can stop it even after it's been casted.

[Master-Nachash]

22 minutes ago, ScorpioneITA said:

Read under.

 

Also @---AweSomeXaV---@Master-Nachash

Not to mention the mods are only obtainable through conclave. The only way to CHEESE is to make a lobby with all friends and abuse the system to gain all conclave challenges etc.

Frames weapons etc being bought for conclave? By whom? Lower ranks don't usually bother, very few will. Higher ranks already have those things..... or get them easily...

Most people use frost globe so I've heard? Most weapon will work fine since enemy tennos don't have much hp etc. Warframes can't mass spam skills.

What are you 2 exactly talking about??

Are you mad cause bad? Or mad cause you getting chopped up in PvP?

Crying about PvP in a PvE game.... is just noobs trying to compete who has the biggest private areas. You want real PvP? Come to pvp games. See how long it takes you to rage quit... you probably have in the past already.

Actually I rarely see any Frosts in conclave unless I'm playing capture the Cephalon, that seems to be a go to choice for a lot of players because of the simple fact you can globe the cephalon and it makes it easier to defend.

Definitely not "mad 'cause bad", more often than not I'm at the top of the scoreboard. I always use the exact same loadout. Excal, Soma P, Akstilleto P, Nikana P, I never cheese, I barely even use my nikana. Only if I have no bullets left, nor do I use any of my abilities other than slash dash really.

The only time I get mad, is when I know someone got a kill not because they're skilled, but because they're using an easy loadout that pretty much ensures easy kills. If it's a kill made from skill though, I don't really mind.

Nah man, I've only ever played one other PVP game and that was APB reloaded, the only times I ever used to rage quit when I was playing that was when the opposing team had blatent aimbotters.

[Master-Nachash]

5 minutes ago, Phasedragon said:

And what about the large number of players who can get the same high score using basically any loadout? Are you conveniently ignoring them or do you think that a mk1 braton is cheese? There are tons of weapons that work well in conclave, and while there are a few cheese things still out there, they are in the significant minority.

 

Yes, iron skin is a bit OP. There's already been a thread about that. But rhino is one of the first frames you get, so it's not like that's pay to win either. On top of that, there are ways to counter iron skin in the meantime; mag and nekros can steal energy so they cant cast it, while banshee can stop it even after it's been casted.

I have yet to witness players using basic "noob" loadouts and getting to the top of scoreboards, and I've been playing daily for the last two or three months.

I don't even like that tbh, the fact that you need specific loadouts to counter other loadouts. Players who don't have the necessary equipment are at a disadvantage, and they're either compelled to stop playing because they keep getting rekt due to that, or they're compelled to invest more into the game just so they can counter other people's equipment.

[Master-Nachash]

3 minutes ago, Knaimhe said:

It seems to me the real problem is your generous application of the word "cheese".
Any time a player equips a weapon that you don't like, you label the situation as "cheese".
Crying "cheese" has become a defense mechanism.

Yes. Screaming cheese is my instinctive reaction to being triggered by a loadout I dislike.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

4 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

I have yet to witness players using basic "noob" loadouts and getting to the top of scoreboards, and I've been playing daily for the last two or three months.

I don't even like that tbh, the fact that you need specific loadouts to counter other loadouts. Players who don't have the necessary equipment are at a disadvantage, and they're either compelled to stop playing because they keep getting rekt due to that, or they're compelled to invest more into the game just so they can counter other people's equipment.

But a lot of pvp based games have something to that affect. Many games that have pvp require either a specific ability to counter another ability, or a specific weapon to counter another, or sometimes even a specific character to counter another character. Generally speaking requiring a specific 'something' to counter another thing is pretty common. The only place that is not common is pvp FPS games. For example in Halo arena play everyone gets the exact same loadout. But now you're talking about a first person shooter which Warframe is not.

[ScorpioneITA]

7 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Actually I rarely see any Frosts in conclave unless I'm playing capture the Cephalon, that seems to be a go to choice for a lot of players because of the simple fact you can globe the cephalon and it makes it easier to defend.

Definitely not "mad 'cause bad", more often than not I'm at the top of the scoreboard. I always use the exact same loadout. Excal, Soma P, Akstilleto P, Nikana P, I never cheese, I barely even use my nikana. Only if I have no bullets left, nor do I use any of my abilities other than slash dash really.

The only time I get mad, is when I know someone got a kill not because they're skilled, but because they're using an easy loadout that pretty much ensures easy kills. If it's a kill made from skill though, I don't really mind.

Nah man, I've only ever played one other PVP game and that was APB reloaded, the only times I ever used to rage quit when I was playing that was when the opposing team had blatent aimbotters.

Okay so here's some issues,

1. you are complaining about load outs etc, yet you are using spray and pray guns.

2. you still havent answered what are these ''cheese''

3. you state you always use the same loadout, therefore you are subject of being easily countered if you run into xyz often, use something that counters it.

4. seems like you only have fun when winning, meaning PvP isn't the best choice for you unless you go competitive...

5. APB reloaded pvp? i mean technically yes, But i did say pvp focused... oh i forgot to say and reasonably well balanced.

 

7 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

I have yet to witness players using basic "noob" loadouts and getting to the top of scoreboards, and I've been playing daily for the last two or three months.

I don't even like that tbh, the fact that you need specific loadouts to counter other loadouts. Players who don't have the necessary equipment are at a disadvantage, and they're either compelled to stop playing because they keep getting rekt due to that, or they're compelled to invest more into the game just so they can counter other people's equipment.

6. What? So there have been no 'basic noob loadouts' and you are complaining about them. like seriously?

7. You don't like counters in PvP games? Dude you need to just play CS:GO, halo, quake or something then... Cause you're describing a fair game for everyone that is only skill and doesn't allow others to be different.

8 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Yes. Screaming cheese is my instinctive reaction to being triggered by a loadout I dislike.

8. So you are mad cause bad since you can't deal with xyz loadouts (which you still haven't mentioned the hell is this cheese you speak of.... I'm certain it's not ling or cannon rush).

 

 

[Master-Nachash]

Just now, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

But a lot of pvp based games have something to that affect. Many games that have pvp require either a specific ability to counter another ability, or a specific weapon to counter another, or sometimes even a specific character to counter another character. Generally speaking requiring a specific 'something' to counter another thing is pretty common. The only place that is not common is pvp FPS games. For example in Halo arena play everyone gets the exact same loadout. But now you're talking about a first person shooter which Warframe is not.

Yeah I understand all of that. I'm just saying I dislike it. Which probably comes from the fact that I grew up playing games like Quake / Unreal and other arena style FPS games that were pretty simple point and click shooters. 

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

Just now, Master-Nachash said:

Yeah I understand all of that. I'm just saying I dislike it. Which probably comes from the fact that I grew up playing games like Quake / Unreal and other arena style FPS games that were pretty simple point and click shooters. 

That's fair enough. I also play a lot of FPS so I can see the angle you're coming from.

[Master-Nachash]

Just now, (XB1)Lorewalker1022 said:

That's fair enough. I also play a lot of FPS so I can see the angle you're coming from.

Sometimes I can enjoy it, but most of the time I feel like it's too messy and perhaps fiddly, and that this is a fast-paced shooter and having to figure out which specific loadout to use to counter other loadouts is pretty tedious when you just wanna kill some folks like you would in Quake or Unreal. It's also partly why I always use the exact same loadout. Like, I'm here to play with skill, not take timeouts in between deaths to think about what I should use to get an edge on my opponent. Also, if I was to think like that, I'd probably use the same loadout all the time again, but instead of it being the one I mentioned, it'd be something along the lines of Rhino Prime with jet kitty and dex sybaris 'cause that pretty much guarantees you an edge on everyone.

[ScorpioneITA]

8 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

Yeah I understand all of that. I'm just saying I dislike it. Which probably comes from the fact that I grew up playing games like Quake / Unreal and other arena style FPS games that were pretty simple point and click shooters. 

Yeah, and how was the balance on those? xD I recall spray and pray there, shock bubble and beam burst or just redeemer and tell everyone to suck on it. See even FPS have issues. Not to mention how easy botting is with simple fps.

Overwatch is doing pretty well. Variety/countering etc is more appealing to the average shooter fan apparently. Games that offer realism, arma etc aren't as popular, coincidence? You would have to rethink your mentality when entering PvP. Honestly, just have fun and try anything. Hell trying random stuff you can find real problems/cheese ;)

[Master-Nachash]

9 minutes ago, ScorpioneITA said:

Okay so here's some issues,

1. you are complaining about load outs etc, yet you are using spray and pray guns.

2. you still havent answered what are these ''cheese''

3. you state you always use the same loadout, therefore you are subject of being easily countered if you run into xyz often, use something that counters it.

4. seems like you only have fun when winning, meaning PvP isn't the best choice for you unless you go competitive...

5. APB reloaded pvp? i mean technically yes, But i did say pvp focused... oh i forgot to say and reasonably well balanced.

 

6. What? So there have been no 'basic noob loadouts' and you are complaining about them. like seriously?

7. You don't like counters in PvP games? Dude you need to just play CS:GO, halo, quake or something then... Cause you're describing a fair game for everyone that is only skill and doesn't allow others to be different.

8. So you are mad cause bad since you can't deal with xyz loadouts (which you still haven't mentioned the hell is this cheese you speak of.... I'm certain it's not ling or cannon rush).

 

 

Yeah I use "spray n pray guns" because for me personally, it's satisfying as hell to get kills with them because they can be difficult to use in high speed combat. They reward skill and accuracy more than most because of their nature. I hate one / two shotters like dex sybaris or daikyu because it's far too easy to get kills with them.

I gave examples in a previous post.

Well, I see your point but I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm "easily countered." And I'm not talking about loadouts that can just counter me I'm talking about loadouts that can decimate a number of opponents of different loadouts at almost any given time which I see happen all too often. The player in the match with Rhino / Loki / Nova and something like jet kitty / heliocore + dex sybaris is gonna be at the top of the scoreboard no matter what you do nine times out of ten for example. Chroma is another one. As soon as he uses his 1, you're gone. Yes there are ways to counter that but actually getting an opportunity to do so is very often impossible because of it's range and because of the cold proc.

No, I don't only have fun when winning. If I'm losing and it's genuinely because someone else is outsmarting me or because they're better than me, and not because they're using an easy-cheesy loadout that pretty much ensures them an easy win, I enjoy that too because #1 I learn from it, and #2 it's cool to see other players who are actually good and not just exploiting game mechanics that as I said, ensure easy wins.

Sometimes I don't even enjoy it when I'm winning. Like earlier today I was in a team annihilation. It was a 1v1, me with my typical loadout against an ember prime. He avoided me for almost the entire match. Just ran around collecting energy and would only come for me when he had enough to use world on fire. Most of the time I'd wreck him, but sometimes he'd run off and rinse + repeat. He was blatently trying to cheese his way to victory, didn't wanna bother trying to gun me down and kill me with skill, instead he figured he'd just spam his 4 and get me that way, but he obviously didn't understand that world on fire is a lot less effective when doing 1v1 because your opponent will be keeping track of your movements a lot more due to being a lot less distracted by other enemies, and it's not like my shields / health would be being drained by other players so he couldn't pick me off after other opponents weakened me. But yeah it ruined the match because there was barely any actual gunplay going on, it was just me running around trying to find the guy and chasing him or running from him when he used world on fire. Tedious as hell.

I said I have yet to see anyone with a basic noob loadout at the top of scoreboard at the end of a match, not that I have to see anyone with a basic noob loadout.

I don't think telling someone to go and play another game because they have issues with the functionality of a game mode in this game is constructive.

And no, I'm not "mad 'cause bad", that's not even an arguement. It's just a way to dismiss someone's points.

[ScorpioneITA]

6 minutes ago, Master-Nachash said:

I don't think telling someone to go and play another game because they have issues with the functionality of a game mode in this game is constructive.

And no, I'm not "mad 'cause bad", that's not even an arguement. It's just a way to dismiss someone's points.

It actually is, if there's something that would appeal to you better, it makes more sense to play that.

No it's just a way to trigger you hence I sensed you are easily triggered.

Newbs should never be encouraged to PvP in a game new to them unless that game is PvP only or pvp based. You have to learn certain mechanics etc first.

In the end the real cheese is people abusing the room used for matching up (such as 4v4) with their friends and max out standings quiet quickly and bypassing 'the grind' Granted PvP could perhaps be better someways or bit more balanced. However it's not a PvP game. frankly for its current state compared to some other mmos that claimed to be PvP based is doing a few things better.

Also mmos where you have to build your character and level it so on so on so on are even worse, you spend time grinding only to find out the pvp is poo or there's clearly imba stuff they don't address.

As long as you have fun it shouldn't matter and no reason to be picky.