Ogris - Facts

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Except the Ogris does take skill to use because you have to learn the charge mechanic and get it right, you have to aim it properly, and you have to move such that the enemy shoots at you instead of your rocket.

And yes, you have to learn the AOE, which is not particularly easy. Every time I've played with an Ogris or with someone who's using an Ogris, someone blew themselves up at least once.

You're just dismissing it as a no-skill weapon without actually using it, and without any arguments for why it's actually a no-skill weapon, beyond whining about how other games do things.

So yes, you need to step up your arguments.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

No. Currently the Ogris oftentimes won't kill wave 10 xini chargers unless you catch them with maximum splash damage. Nerfing the damage would make the weapon suck epically and basically make it worthless, just like the Ignis.

In fact, with an Ogris on Xini, I usually have to leave my sniper perch because Ogris just can't deal with enemies around the pod effectively (by the time it's fired two rockets, the pod will be dead), forcing me to wade in with my Orthos.

Also, if you're a miasma Saryn and you got outkilled by an Ogris user, I don't know what to say. I don't know how that's possible, unless you weren't actually using miasma to its fullest.

Quality of life improvements met with nerfs.  I said I don't know how much will be needed, but I suspect it will be.  Can we agree that before talking about balance those improvements need to be made?  Something else which I'll probably add to my previous post is make the explosion more closely match the radius so players have a better mental indication of where the safe zone is.

 

I had maxed Focus, Flow, Stretch, Streamline, and Miasma.  Of course, there were waves where multiple ticks of damage from Miasma were required to kill, so perhaps he fired on the half-health enemies that would have died anyways.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LazyKnight]

I do not care to anymore as far as I care Update 8 killed the game if Update 9 doesn't fix it I am quitting anyway.

 

Not going to argue with you have better thing to do today. I will never use it I am not give DE any support for their clan idea even if though I could make one from the resource I have and could stick 8 forma in it. They stand on a box fire from safety  and fire It doesn't even require looking at the screen in XIn or any defense maps.

 

skill [skil]
(plural skills)
n
1.  ability to do something well: the ability to do something well, usually gained through experience and training 
2.  something requiring training to do well: something such as an art or trade that requires training and experience to do well 

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Edited June 27, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Quality of life improvements met with nerfs.  I said I don't know how much will be needed, but I suspect it will be.  Can we agree that before talking about balance those improvements need to be made?

The damage needs to be more regular, yeah. I'm not sure the jamming issue is a bug - or that if it is, it should be fixed. It requires more skill from the user, and that's not a bad thing IMO.

 

I had maxed Focus, Flow, Stretch, Streamline, and Miasma.  Of course, there were waves where multiple ticks of damage from Miasma were required to kill, so perhaps he fired on the half-health enemies that would have died anyways.

I don't know how you're not getting enough kills then. By all rights you should be able to easily outkill an Ogris user. Heck, I usually get outcompeted by a Saryn spamming miasma when I've got my ogris.

They stand on a box fire from safety and fire It doesn't even require looking at the screen in XIn or any defense maps.

Spoken like someone who's never used it. But hey, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Volt_Cruelerz]

The damage needs to be more regular, yeah. I'm not sure the jamming issue is a bug - or that if it is, it should be fixed. It requires more skill from the user, and that's not a bad thing IMO.

I wouldn't call it skill.  It's just an issue that if you misclick you can get yourself killed because your weapon will now refuse to fire for a brief period, and yes, I have died because of that.

 

 

 

They stand on a box fire from safety  and fire It doesn't even require looking at the screen in XIn or any defense maps.

 

There really is more to it than that :/

Edited June 27, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LazyKnight]

Spoken like someone who's never used it. But hey, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

You act clever and cute and think it takes skill it has the same range as thunderbolt it IS the same. Only difference is one scales of mods the other is capped.

Edited June 27, 2013 by LazyKnight

[X3Evanescence]

Now don't start an argument here. We are civilized Tenno. Any form of hostility can cause this thread to cease to exist. Remain civil, and try to keep your feedback constructive.

[Gameoverman]

ogris threads give me a headache, too many brats complaining

[Volt_Cruelerz]

You act clever and cute and think it takes skill it has the same range as thunderbolt it IS the same. Only difference is one scales of mods the other is capped.

Eh, the firing mechanism of Thunderbolt is a lot more intuitive than the Ogris.

[LazyKnight]

Eh, the firing mechanism of Thunderbolt is a lot more intuitive than the Ogris.

Will not argue that.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

You act clever and cute and think it takes skill it has the same range as thunderbolt it IS the same. Only difference is one scales of mods the other is capped.

Have you like never used a thunderbolt before? Because T-bolt is pretty unreliable (30% chance of AOE explosion), forcing you to use it in a completely different fashion than the Ogris. With Ogris you want to aim at the ground near the enemy, with T-bolt you want to aim at the enemy directly.

Seriously, you're whining about a weapon that, as far as I can tell, doesn't exist. Ogris isn't UT's rocket launcher, it's a lot more limited than that.

 

I wouldn't call it skill. It's just an issue that if you misclick you can get yourself killed because your weapon will now refuse to fire for a brief period, and yes, I have died because of that.

I think getting the timing down right is a skill, personally.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[X3Evanescence]

ogris threads give me a headache, too many brats complaining

Take a break, have a cookie =D

[X3Evanescence]

Guys, just. Chill.

[Dasmir]

Every ogris thread " Herp Derp Nerf it cuz its a noobtube and i cant enlarge my e-penis in a PvE game !"

[ra9una]

Your English isn't bad. What are your first 3 languages?

 

As for the Ogris, don't have it so: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/53259-dont-even-nerf-thread-till-you-own-it-please-give-it-a-read/

[LazyKnight]

Your English isn't bad. What are your first 3 languages?

 

As for the Ogris, don't have it so: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/53259-dont-even-nerf-thread-till-you-own-it-please-give-it-a-read/

Ogris is the first AOE one hit kill weapon in game it has no comparison all the way up to U7. U8 weapons lab weapons rank requirement do not even justify it being both AOE and a 1-hit kill weapon with 540 rounds. They might as well just make thunderbolt scale of mods and have 100% chance. They said that would be OP then they made Ogris.

 

Hek was pre nerf was a single kill 1-hit weapon and they nerfed that with fall-off damage because it would be too op to snipe with a shotgun. That give-it-read post is dead now they might as well un nerf hek

Edited June 27, 2013 by LazyKnight

[psyanide]

"Specialist" ammo, instead of Sniper? There are now Sniper rounds, Arrows and Rockets... Oh my.

 

And aye, in light of the Ogris - 100% Explody chance on Thunderbolt mod (wtf is the use otherwise?) with damage scaling, but with a smaller blast radius than Ogris - that goes up slightly with mod level.

[Rompido]

GREAT POST! DEVS LEAVE THIS WEP ALONE

[Haif]

No, the Ogris needs looking at.

I've had a Ogris practically since the clan stuff was released.

 

It does ridiculous damage, even unmodded, Speed Trigger exists, blast radius can be learned and thus avoided, when I blow myself up I've always deserved it (well, except the one time my rocket was shot out from in-front of me, but I've modified my tactics and haven't had that happen again), infinite ammo, and $&*&*#(%&ly high damage per shot.

 

Basically, the way I see the Ogris as a longtime user:

 

Pros:

-Monster damage

-AoE

-Infinite Ammo (needs to be changed)

 

Cons:

-requires positioning due to suicide-bombing (aka not for bads)

-weak at close-combat

-unreliable damage

-comes with a self-blinding mechanism (aka the S#&$ty charge indicator)

-seemingly poor hit-detection

 

Pro 3 should be changed, and Cons 3-5 can (and should) be fixed, which leaves us with an extremely powerful aoe weapon with minimal drawbacks that can be compensated for through skill.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Haif

[Malphegore]

I don't see why people complain in a co-op game. "The weapon is OP." Did the Grineer tell you that? Because they'd be the ones doing the complaining, not the Tenno, whom are able to use the thing. It's likely the ones who don't have an Ogris doing the complaining.

 

Get the Ogris, try it, it actually does take some skill to use outside of a defense mission. And if all else fails and at the end of the day you don't like the Ogris, then don't use it, leave any random game you see that has one, and/or play private with friends that don't use the Ogris, if it bothers you that much.

[LazyKnight]

I don't see why people complain in a co-op game. "The weapon is OP." Did the Grineer tell you that? Because they'd be the ones doing the complaining, not the Tenno, whom are able to use the thing. It's likely the ones who don't have an Ogris doing the complaining.

 

Get the Ogris, try it, it actually does take some skill to use outside of a defense mission. And if all else fails and at the end of the day you don't like the Ogris, then don't use it, leave any random game you see that has one, and/or play private with friends that don't use the Ogris, if it bothers you that much.

If they leave as is they should un nerf HEK,Gorgon and thunderbolt. DE with U8 has basically said to the people who were upset with the hek nerf, that HEK is OP but not and infinite ammo rocket launcher that can empty rooms. The gorgon was also heavily nerfed because it was too OP to be able to aim and hit its target at distance with a min-gun. This double standard with the balancing of the lab weapons is glaring.

 

 

There really is more to it than that :/

I was referring to the compensation required of the blast radius just requires measuring once based off fixed objects. Standing on boxes or rafters on that map put you out of range. All the defense maps have many spots that can cover most of the map from a safe distance from your own blast zone. All non defense maps simply shoot behind a NPC so the blast doesn't hit you. The handicap of an AOE weapon is easily circumvented by exploiting the radius of the impact zone.

 

This isn't skill just understanding the nature of an explosion and standing outside of its reach. It only takes blowing your self up once to realize that was too close try next time at little farther away. If you keep blowing yourself up after the 3rd time its not the weapon that is to blame.

Edited June 28, 2013 by LazyKnight

[MyXmaN]

Ogris is my favourite weapon so far. And the only one i polarized two times.

The only weird thing is ammo - 540 is just crazy, 72-120 would make a lot more sense - my ammo never drops below 500 anyway.

 

Im using this thing on defense, boss-fights and even solo runs. 

 

The only real downside for me is the damage instability - sometimes i deal a lot more damage than some other times. I wonder if its a bug or a feature.

However, maxed speed trigger + maxed fast hands fixes that in some way - im able to constantly barrage everything with rockets.

 

What i have installed in the gun:

orokin reactor

2 formas (multishot, serration)

maxed multishot

maxed ap

maxed fire

maxed ice

135% serration (to be maxed)

maxed speed trigger

maxed fast hands

[TheDoctah]

1. I do own it.

 

2. I'm rank 7

 

3. I'm in a clan that was about 200 at the time of U8, so we got it pretty quickly.  I contributed a lot of detonite ampules to the Ogris specifically.

 

4. I'm a Hunter, so I have plenty of Platinum to buy Formas

 

5. The only problem here was just accumulating all the Control Modules.

 

6. Well, I was at the time, yes.

 

7. All true, you have just listed the many of the downsides of the weapon

 

8. I haven't Forma'd mine yet since I'm trying to rank up my Supra and I want to forma my Dera first.  You've re-listed some of your above points.  I think the explosion must be doing raycasting or something because perhaps it sometimes hits weakpoints?  Idk.  I haven't formally tested this, but I am aware of the extreme unreliability you're talking about.

 

9.  I've been in a game like that where I was the Saryn and someone else had an Ogris.  At the end of either wave 10 or 15 when we got a T3 void key as a reward, he had about 30% more kills than me.  I was running around with a maxed Dera (better than the Braton by quite a bit against infested) and killing things in two maybe three shots. or just hitting [4] if there was a cluster of them as I had max Flow and Streamline.  The Ogris user just sat back and rocket sniped all day.  Let's just say my results were different from yours.  

 

Also, about KS'ing, it sounds like you're using the "stop complaining about balance in a PVE game" or rather a variant of it.  KS'ing can make the game unfun.  The best example is the original Overload on Volt.  It was stupidly powerful and wiped out everything from rooms away.  Also, if one person hogs the kills, the affinity only goes towards whatever they used to get kills IIRC which I believe is what ticks a lot of people off.  That and that they actually like contributing to playing and seeing someone do so much better than them is likely upsetting.

 

10.  I see your point, but let me explain my position.

 

Pros:

-Absolutely stupendous damage that scales with mods

-Large AoE

 

Cons:

-Can kill yourself

-Positioning is critical

-Weapon can jam (I'm assuming this to be a bug)

-Weapon ready light is blinding

-Weapon damage can be unreliable

 

In your argument, you seem to include all those cons in your reasoning as to why it doesn't need a nerf.  Try stripping away the last three cons as they'll likely be changed with polish and bug fixes.  Now you're left with a gun that does stupidly high damage to an AoE that can kill yourself.  I'm a developer for a game in which almost all weapons are explosive weapons that can you can blow yourself up with if you aren't careful, so forgive me for not being intimidated by the idea of blowing myself up.  Now, I haven't yet gotten used to exactly how large the radius on the thing is, but I'm sure I will when I have more time to play with it and when that happens, the frequency at which I kill myself will drop considerably.  

 

Also, I've never blown myself up due to an ally that's walked in front of me because I've only used this thing in solo (with an unranked Vauban, lol that was a very bad idea) and on Xini.  Why haven't I on Xini?  Because I find a perch and bombard from it, just as the guy did in the aforementioned game where I was the Saryn.

 

Look, I'm not looking to make the Ogris underpowered.  I'm looking to make it a good weapon to use which is why I'd personally propose the following changes.

 

1. Ogris glow is removed and replaced by the reticle filling as it charges

2. A laser pointer is added to it to notify allies when it is charged so they can get out of the way.

3. Get rid of the jamming issue

4. Fix the reliability of the damage

5. Change Ogris to Sniper ammo and rename sniper ammo to something else.

5. Nerf the damage.

 

1-4 are all quality of life changes.  I'm trying to improve the experience with the Ogris, not ruin it.  I hope you realize this.  With all of those changes which to be honest, I see either them or some alternatives happening, the Ogris's true power will shine through more and it'll need a nerf.  Right now in its current state, I would say don't nerf it, but as it gets the quality of life upgrades that it needs, it'll eventually need it.  I don't know how much to nerf it, but 1-4 need to happen first so we can get a better idea as to what the true unencumbered power of the thing is.  I seriously expect it will need it though.

 

 

Also, my hat goes off to you for being quite good with a fourth language good sir.

 

 

Anyways, I hope throughout all this I didn't come across as condescending or anything.  I agree that it doesn't need a nerf at the moment, but that's only because it has some issues that need to get fixed first.  Fix the bugs then fix the balance.  I feel very strongly that once the quality of life improvements are added, the Ogris will need a nerf.  As before, how much, I am uncertain.

No offence as I'm not trying to be an &#!, but it seems like you want everything nerfed. xD Which it might end up being that way cause I think you said in some other post in another topic that you believe in full sidegrades and all that other stuff but the game needs the sense of progression and you won't get that if you don't have some weapons that are stronger than others. This game has no story mode, nothing much to do after you get your mods and warframes all set up to snuff. It's cool to have some weapons balanced to perform somewhat to the same level, but not every single weapon should be nerfed just to lower itself to some other weapon. Because that's what ruined the Vandal (I still love my Vandal just cause it looks cool and required a great amount of mods to make it a decent rifle after it's huge nerf) So with that said, need some stronger weapons, need sense of progression. You're only limiting the game by trying to make every single weapon as strong as a starter rifle (Braton) Which, that shouldn't be. Also If ksing is also such a big deal to people in a game where exp is shared regardless who gets the kill (which honestly sounds quite silly imo) they should honestly find some friends so they don't have to be put through that. Or solo, you can still be a co-op player if you find some friends. 

Edited June 28, 2013 by TheDoctah

[X3Evanescence]

.....

[seth]

2-7. These are all the same. It takes time to get. Shocking revelation. I'm not even going to bother trying to make you understand my opinion, which is that weapons should not be better simply because they take longer to get.

 

8. If you replaced everything here with "You can kill yourself with it," you would make the same point. If you wanted to make a thread called "Ways to kill yourself with an Ogris," this would be a good list to start with. That thread would not have annoyed me at all.

 

2-7 If you are able to make good case and give me an eye opening experience on statement - why weapons should not be better because they take longer to get - please do. Saying you won't even bother make me understand is childish and evasive behavior, and also you can't make me (or anyone else) understand, but you can make a good case with arguments that can lead me (or anyone else) in different conclusions than the previous ones.

 

8. Here I could answer as you did - I'm not even going to bother to make you understand my opinion - this would lead to nowhere. So the reason i stated all those examples is to show some players who don't own Ogris what is it about, how does it perform in some situations. Just stating "you will kill your self" is explanatory, but not deep enough.

If this thread annoyed you (and/or even offended you) just because of it's name, I can conclude that your post as whole is just a product of annoyance therefore it's not even worth replay, however I would suggest you to find more threads like this, it is the only way you will be able overcome that disability.

 

 

9.  I've been in a game like that where I was the Saryn and someone else had an Ogris.  At the end of either wave 10 or 15 when we got a T3 void key as a reward, he had about 30% more kills than me.  I was running around with a maxed Dera (better than the Braton by quite a bit against infested) and killing things in two maybe three shots. or just hitting [4] if there was a cluster of them as I had max Flow and Streamline.  The Ogris user just sat back and rocket sniped all day.  Let's just say my results were different from yours.  

 

Also, about KS'ing, it sounds like you're using the "stop complaining about balance in a PVE game" or rather a variant of it.  KS'ing can make the game unfun.  The best example is the original Overload on Volt.  It was stupidly powerful and wiped out everything from rooms away.  Also, if one person hogs the kills, the affinity only goes towards whatever they used to get kills IIRC which I believe is what ticks a lot of people off.  That and that they actually like contributing to playing and seeing someone do so much better than them is likely upsetting.

 

10.  I see your point, but let me explain my position.

Pros:

-Absolutely stupendous damage that scales with mods

-Large AoE

Cons:

-Can kill yourself

-Positioning is critical

-Weapon can jam (I'm assuming this to be a bug)

-Weapon ready light is blinding

-Weapon damage can be unreliable

 

In your argument, you seem to include all those cons in your reasoning as to why it doesn't need a nerf.  Try stripping away the last three cons as they'll likely be changed with polish and bug fixes.  Now you're left with a gun that does stupidly high damage to an AoE that can kill yourself.

 

Look, I'm not looking to make the Ogris underpowered.  I'm looking to make it a good weapon to use which is why I'd personally propose the following changes.

 

1. Ogris glow is removed and replaced by the reticle filling as it charges

2. A laser pointer is added to it to notify allies when it is charged so they can get out of the way.

3. Get rid of the jamming issue

4. Fix the reliability of the damage

5. Change Ogris to Sniper ammo and rename sniper ammo to something else.

5. Nerf the damage.

 

1-4 are all quality of life changes.  I'm trying to improve the experience with the Ogris, not ruin it.  I hope you realize this.  With all of those changes which to be honest, I see either them or some alternatives happening, the Ogris's true power will shine through more and it'll need a nerf.  Right now in its current state, I would say don't nerf it, but as it gets the quality of life upgrades that it needs, it'll eventually need it.  I don't know how much to nerf it, but 1-4 need to happen first so we can get a better idea as to what the true unencumbered power of the thing is.  I seriously expect it will need it though.

 

Anyways, I hope throughout all this I didn't come across as condescending or anything.  I agree that it doesn't need a nerf at the moment, but that's only because it has some issues that need to get fixed first.  Fix the bugs then fix the balance.  I feel very strongly that once the quality of life improvements are added, the Ogris will need a nerf.  As before, how much, I am uncertain.

Thank you for taking your time and making a good case, and I am sorry for butchering your post, I tried to keep it as short as possible.

 

9. I have been in same situation, standing on high spot and rocketing things, however I got bored fast and changed my gameplay style. My whole Sayrin experience is just example, there are many other examples, as guy with banshee spamming quake 5 times in a row, in closed beta, guy with hek running ad destroying bosses in few shots, and so on.

About KS-ing in example I made with Saryin - any one of us could say to stop using miasma so much and I think the player would (I know I would).

In other example when I used Banshee and spammed quake, once players were bothered, but no one said to me something like, "Hey, please stop spamming it, you are getting all kills, I want to shoot something..." At end I got pm from user (who blocked me) saying: fck you, d-bag.

At the end, there is a chat, so players could use it to relay their concerns during mission beside other infos.

 

10. We both have similar opinion on Ogris.

I did not say Ogris doesn't need nerf, but now I am saying, it doesn't need nerf (meaning: weaken something), but it needs polish (function, dmg, fire rate, bugs...), and I strongly agree with you. That polish is not just about weapon it self, it's much broader as in optimizing dojo, resources, and other factors. Lets not forget Torid or Jaw Sword, these weapons also need polish. What bothers me are the players who don't own it, who don't know what you need to undertake to get it, or don't know how to play with it, shouting nerf it - is not solution if all factors are taken in consideration.

 

 

To fire a gun that has a charge time of 1.5 seconds and a with a reload time 2s. That's 810 seconds just to shot 540 rounds without factoring reloading adding reloading is 214 more seconds of reload time. People that argue against having its ammo changed really have no ground to stand on, no gun should take 1024 seconds to empty it stock. Its even more time than this because of the delay interval after shooting.

 

Personally I hate the weapon, hate being in parties with the weapon can't stand it from any point of view. Its the ultimate noob cannon people in Cod dream of.

It's not all about numbers, it's sometimes about different gameplay style. If it were about numbers I would never use Glaive, Sicarius, Bo...

Being dismissive about weapon doesn't benefit to anyone, it is same as me hating Volts in infested defense missions, I still kinda do, but I stay to see how long can we as a team can survive. Good for us that we can always leave missions.

Edited June 28, 2013 by seth