Ogris - Facts

[Volt_Cruelerz]

No offence as I'm not trying to be an &#!, but it seems like you want everything nerfed. xD Which it might end up being that way cause I think you said in some other post in another topic that you believe in full sidegrades and all that other stuff but the game needs the sense of progression and you won't get that if you don't have some weapons that are stronger than others. This game has no story mode, nothing much to do after you get your mods and warframes all set up to snuff. It's cool to have some weapons balanced to perform somewhat to the same level, but not every single weapon should be nerfed just to lower itself to some other weapon. Because that's what ruined the Vandal (I still love my Vandal just cause it looks cool and required a great amount of mods to make it a decent rifle after it's huge nerf) So with that said, need some stronger weapons, need sense of progression. You're only limiting the game by trying to make every single weapon as strong as a starter rifle (Braton) Which, that shouldn't be. Also If ksing is also such a big deal to people in a game where exp is shared regardless who gets the kill (which honestly sounds quite silly imo) they should honestly find some friends so they don't have to be put through that. Or solo, you can still be a co-op player if you find some friends. 

Lol, no, not everything, just things that are above what my mental conception of balanced is which is basically a vague line drawn through the power levels of various weapons.  I'm big of numbers when it comes to balancing things* so to be perfectly honest, a weapon that I'd consider balanced is a properly-used Burston (aka reliable instagibs on everything that is non-heavy and isn't in Endless Defense) after the semi-auto/framerate bug gets fixed (because right now, it seems your average used can only fire the gun about two thirds as fast as it should due to the bug which naturally hugely impacts performance).  I've requested that the Brandal be buffed in actual threads.  It needed a nerf, but it didn't deserve the nerf it got, and IMO the Braton didn't deserve the buff it got either.  I was never a big shotty user (tried the Hek, kept it around but wasn't a fan) so I can't comment on those nerfs and likewise for the Gorgon.

 

I am a fan of full-sidegrades.  Why?

 

1. Promotes diversity: all weapons are generally speaking equally viable.

2. Each weapon already allows player progression in terms of power level: level -> potato -> forma

3. Having weapons that are categorically better than others discourage those options already available in 2 which means less money for DE and less fun for us.  Why would you bother spending your rare (or bought) forma on a weapon when you know there's a better weapon one mastery rank up?  I know I wouldn't.

4. Upgrades introduce inherent power creep.

5. There will always be more weapons below your current rank than at your rank.  If each rank weapons are generally speaking more powerful on average, then you wouldn't bother using or keeping weapons below your rank even if you liked them and had space for them.  They're just not as good as your other options.  Recall the original Gorgon and Hek?  If you were a high enough mastery, you always ran around with one of them.  They were just the best.  It didn't matter if you liked other weapons more, the Hek and Gorgon simply performed better than all other options.

 

In my mind then, higher-mastery weapons should be more specialized side-grades or weapons with new mechanics, not upgrades to old weapons.

 

Now, you might say, "Well that's all well and good, but look at the extremely expensive clan weapons or the prime weapons in the Void.  Shouldn't they deserve to be more powerful because of how exorbitantly expensive they are?"  Well, no.  You see, players consume the content in this game extremely quickly.  At lower ranks, it naturally makes sense to allow faster player progression, but as time goes on, players advance in mastery and would like new weapons to show for it.  Also recall that at this time, the game doesn't actually have end-game.  Now consider again the value of having higher-mastery equipment cost more resources.  It necessarily slows the consumption of content and slows the cries for more stuff as people aren't getting everything as quickly.  This also promotes more rushing things in the foundry and the use of forma in them, both of which mean more sales for DE.  

 

If people are consuming content too quickly, it is not unreasonable have content be consumed slower, especially at this point in the game's development where the only lategame is farming.  I can attest that after building my Acrid, I experienced a huge dropoff in desire to play the game.  I'm hoping that U9 will provide polish enough that I'll be able to enjoy just being a ninja again until endgame is finally added.

 

 

It's not so much kill stealing as it is kill-hogging that bothers people unless they want affinity to go to a specific item so they can level it up.  Back before the Overload nerf, there were games where I could go through ulting constantly and my team would actually get zero kills.  I would actually get every single kill.  They felt like they weren't playing the game at that point and because of issues like that, the power got nerfed and for good reason.

 

 

*I'll at admit freely that this doesn't always work.  Once for the game I develop, I was working on adding a DoT mechanic to what effectively amounted to a napalm-filled rocket launcher.  By the numbers, it was far weaker than the normal rockets, yet in practice because the DoT effect got applied regardless of where in the radius you got hit and this is a game where you can easily dodge rockets moving at 210 m/s, it ended up becoming more powerful in the vast majority of cases because most players were able to get most of the way out of the radius of a rocket so it would only deal minimal damage whereas the napalm rocket dealt most of its (albeit very minimal) damage from the DoT.  As a result, it ended up dealing on average about twice as much damage as the standard rockets.  Correspondingly, it got nerfed quite hard after that.

 

 

 

2-7 If you are able to make good case and give me an eye opening experience on statement - why weapons should not be better because they take longer to get - please do. Saying you won't even bother make me understand is childish and evasive behavior, and also you can't make me (or anyone else) understand, but you can make a good case with arguments that can lead me (or anyone else) in different conclusions than the previous ones.

 

Thank you for taking your time and making a good case, and I am sorry for butchering your post, I tried to keep it as short as possible.

 

10. We both have similar opinion on Ogris.

I did not say Ogris doesn't need nerf, but now I am saying, it doesn't need nerf (meaning: weaken something), but it needs polish (function, dmg, fire rate, bugs...), and I strongly agree with you. That polish is not just about weapon it self, it's much broader as in optimizing dojo, resources, and other factors. Lets not forget Torid or Jaw Sword, these weapons also need polish. What bothers me are the players who don't own it, who don't know what you need to undertake to get it, or don't know how to play with it, shouting nerf it - is not solution if all factors are taken in consideration.

 

Regarding the part of your post that wasn't directed at me, I give an explanation above.

 

And I agree, it can easily raise red flags whenever someone calls for nerfs on things before they've experienced it.  Now, if the player provides the disclaimer that they haven't played with these weapons and that it is based on speculation based on numbers, then I don't really see an issue with it.  They're word shouldn't be held in as high regard as someone who mains the weapon, but it's not completely worthless.  Now, the people that just come in saying "Nerf Ogris, it's too OP" without providing any real evidence are just making junk posts, valuable to no one.  If they explain themselves and an intelligent discussion can ensue, then of course it's valuable feedback.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[LazyKnight]

 

I am a fan of full-sidegrades.  Why?

 

1. Promotes diversity: all weapons are generally speaking equally viable.

2. Each weapon already allows player progression in terms of power level: level -> potato -> forma

3. Having weapons that are categorically better than others discourage those options already available in 2 which means less money for DE and less fun for us.  Why would you bother spending your rare (or bought) forma on a weapon when you know there's a better weapon one mastery rank up?  I know I wouldn't.

4. Upgrades introduce inherent power creep.

5. There will always be more weapons below your current rank than at your rank.  If each rank weapons are generally speaking more powerful on average, then you wouldn't bother using or keeping weapons below your rank even if you liked them and had space for them.  They're just not as good as your other options.  Recall the original Gorgon and Hek?  If you were a high enough mastery, you always ran around with one of them.  They were just the best.  It didn't matter if you liked other weapons more, the Hek and Gorgon simply performed better than all other options.

I have no idea what benchmark at all they used for u8 this is primarily the issues it is arbitrary. The lab weapons seem to be governed by a different set of benchmark than other weapon or none at all and just stuck in as that would be cool. By the standards of the lab weapons HEK and gorgon shouldn't be nerfed it is a sheer power creep. Making it rank 7 requirements somehow makes it able to escape the older balance requirements. It not hard at all to get rank, it just takes a mindless grind and takes really no skill just a lot of hours. I just can't stand double standards on balance or lack thereof, why they made such a big deal about HEK rank 4 being too strong verse other weapons than preceded to make Ogris.

Edited June 28, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I have no idea what benchmark at all they used for u8 this is primarily the issues it is arbitrary. The lab weapons seem to be governed by a different set of benchmark than other weapon or none at all and just stuck in as that would be cool. By the standards of the lab weapons HEK and gorgon shouldn't be nerfed it is a sheer power creep. Making it rank 7 requirements somehow makes it able to escape the older balance requirements. It not hard at all to get rank, it just takes a mindless grind and takes really no skill just a lot of hours. I just can't stand double standards on balance or lack thereof, why they made such a big deal about HEK rank 4 being too strong verse other weapons than preceded to make Ogris.

Well, the breadth of power on them is so wide (Ignis and Flux on one side, Acrid and Ogris on the other) that I assume they want them balanced and just didn't have time to actually go through and either test or check a DPS table.  I'm assuming we'll see balance changes as time permits, especially since that appears to be the point of U9.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I am a fan of full-sidegrades.  Why?

 

1. Promotes diversity: all weapons are generally speaking equally viable.

2. Each weapon already allows player progression in terms of power level: level -> potato -> forma

3. Having weapons that are categorically better than others discourage those options already available in 2 which means less money for DE and less fun for us.  Why would you bother spending your rare (or bought) forma on a weapon when you know there's a better weapon one mastery rank up?  I know I wouldn't.

4. Upgrades introduce inherent power creep.

5. There will always be more weapons below your current rank than at your rank.  If each rank weapons are generally speaking more powerful on average, then you wouldn't bother using or keeping weapons below your rank even if you liked them and had space for them.  They're just not as good as your other options.  Recall the original Gorgon and Hek?  If you were a high enough mastery, you always ran around with one of them.  They were just the best.  It didn't matter if you liked other weapons more, the Hek and Gorgon simply performed better than all other options.

While this is valid logic, it tends to fail when you take into account game theory and more particularly, how many more resources certain weapons take to get.

If Supra is just a sidegrade to Gorgon, for instance, there's precious little reason to spend the metric truckload of resources it takes to get when you can just drop a seventh of the resources for a Gorgon. Well, unless you like the look of it or something. But for most people, aesthetics don't trump days to weeks of farming. It does no good to slow down the consumption rate of content if the content itself isn't worth consuming to begin with.

And to be worth consuming, the content needs to be noticeably better than more easily acquired content. Maybe not better in every metric (eg Braton Mark 1 is more accurate and has a bigger magazine than the Standard), but better in many respects.

I've used this example before, but Mass Effect 3 did this fairly well. On one hand you had the Mattock. It's a solid gun, in the second tier of rarity (and thus difficulty in acquisition). On the other, you have the Harrier, which is an ultrarare full auto version of the Mattock. When you got the Harrier, it felt like a major step up from the Mattock, even if its ammo pool was effectively much smaller. In every other way, the Harrier was superior to the Mattock, and this was good, because it allowed players to feel like they were making progress. They could look at their manifest and feel a sense of accomplishment, remembering back when they had nothing but some starter guns.

There's another good example of how things go wrong in ME3 too. There was this gun called the Hurricane. It's an SMG that, for the first year and a half, was fairly easy to acquire (every weekend event had a 1/4 chance of giving one). It was also amazing. Consequently, nobody used any other SMG. Even when new ultrarare SMGs were added, nobody used them except for lulz because they simply weren't as good as the current weapons.

More to the point, people actually felt ripped off when they got a UR SMG compared to similarly-rare guns that were actually better than standard ones. They thought "aww, man? I've got that worthless blood pack SMG S#&$ting up my UR drop. :("

That is the real danger of sidegrading. If new content is the same as old content except for a quirk or two, people have no reason to use new content unless they like the quirk and/or aesthetics. If old content is better than new content (eg Braton vs Dera or Braton vs Grakata, or Paris w/Tbolt vs Ogris if DE nerfs Ogris into the ground), there's even less reason for people to consume new content.

 

Now, you might say, "Well that's all well and good, but look at the extremely expensive clan weapons or the prime weapons in the Void.  Shouldn't they deserve to be more powerful because of how exorbitantly expensive they are?"  Well, no.  You see, players consume the content in this game extremely quickly.  At lower ranks, it naturally makes sense to allow faster player progression, but as time goes on, players advance in mastery and would like new weapons to show for it.  Also recall that at this time, the game doesn't actually have end-game.  Now consider again the value of having higher-mastery equipment cost more resources.  It necessarily slows the consumption of content and slows the cries for more stuff as people aren't getting everything as quickly.  This also promotes more rushing things in the foundry and the use of forma in them, both of which mean more sales for DE.

The problem being that if the difficult to acquire guns aren't noticeably better than the entry level ones, less people are going to feel compelled to get them in general. Slowing the consumption speed of content sounds good and all, but when the content itself isn't worth using compared to what's already available, people aren't going to use it. Example: How many people use the machete? The prova? The dual cleavers? New content that's inferior to current offerings which nobody actually uses. How about the Ignis? A gun that's by all rights terrible, but which requires a huge amount of resources to make. I for one have only seen two people use it. One, a pug, who was clearly testing it out. And one of my clanmates who was leveling it purely for mastery. At present, the only reason people even research it is because they haven't heard how badly it sucks, or they need it as a prereq for Ogris.

[MJ12]

Basically the argument Facehugger is making is:

 

If the Ogris gets hugely discounted (it costs a ultra-rare Forma and a ton of resources) it can be nerfed without being a bad decision.

 

If the Ogris/other Clan weapons keep their absolutely exorbitant costs they should probably be a cut above non-Clan weapons as long as their cost stays that way.

 

That doesn't mean the Ogris isn't overpowered right now (I think it's in that terrible spot where it's either OP or UP dependent on the situation and has no in-between), it just means it can't be a "sidegrade".

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Well, if that discount includes eliminating the required mastery rank too, yeah. Because if we're going to be having sidegrades, the mastery unlock system runs directly contrary to that.

But yeah, generally, sidegrades only work when the guns are in the same ballpark of effort to acquire. A gun that costs 10x the resources but is a sidegrade isn't a gun that people will be lining up to use.

At the moment, I think that the Ogris' power is generally in a good place when considering the amount of effort and time it took to acquire it. I as a player want to be rewarded for putting in lots of effort and time, and Ogris does that. It could be tweaked - I'd trade blast radius for more consistently applied damage, but in terms of effectiveness, it's right at where a mastery 6 gun that takes bazillions of resources and time and a rare resource should be.

I think it could stand to use sniper ammo (though it's kind of unnecessary except from a verisimilitude standpoint since even 70 rockets ala Paris arrows will probably be plenty) and that its 'silenced' trait should be removed too.

Personally, I think a hybrid system would be better as far as general sidegrade vs upgrade goes in general.

Like, you've got several tiers. Tier 1 is starters, and all starters are competitive with other starters. Tier 2 is braton, grakata, dera, and such like. All of them getting their costs vaguely normalized, and being competitive with each other, but generally superior to T1 guns. Then at T3 you've got Gorgon, Hek, etc. Same deal as before. Then at T4 you've got your top shelf weapons like Kunai, Supra, Ogris, Orthos, Scindo, etc.

Each gun is competitive within its tier, but clearly better than the tier before it. Not better in every way (eg Braton Mk1's mag and accuracy vs Braton Standard's damage and ROF - with mods you can almost turn the Mark 1 into a sniper version of the Standard actually)

This preserves the sense of progression for players, slows down the consumption of content since each tier takes a lot more time and resources to reach, and it doesn't kill variety significantly. The current mod system is flexible enough to allow a low tier gun to carry its weight even in high level play, and that's one trait that should be kept.

[AngelGuardcc]

......i cant even.....omg these text walls

[Scyris]

I have a triple forma potatoed Ogris and I love it, but its more of a defense weapon since using it in alot of missions WILL kill you. Also what the hell is a Miasma saryn?

[Inez]

9.  I've been in a game like that where I was the Saryn and someone else had an Ogris.  At the end of either wave 10 or 15 when we got a T3 void key as a reward, he had about 30% more kills than me.

Someone got more kills than a Saryn? The gods must surely be upset.

What's the obvious answer?

 

5. Nerf the damage.

If you have the innate skill to handle pressing 4 repeatedly on a Saryn, you have rightly earned your #1 spot on the kill list. Pressing left mouse repeatedly is obviously for noobs.

[Dasmir]

......i cant even.....omg these text walls

 

Tons of QQ !

[LazyKnight]

Well, if that discount includes eliminating the required mastery rank too, yeah. Because if we're going to be having sidegrades, the mastery unlock system runs directly contrary to that.

But yeah, generally, sidegrades only work when the guns are in the same ballpark of effort to acquire. A gun that costs 10x the resources but is a sidegrade isn't a gun that people will be lining up to use.

At the moment, I think that the Ogris' power is generally in a good place when considering the amount of effort and time it took to acquire it. I as a player want to be rewarded for putting in lots of effort and time, and Ogris does that. It could be tweaked - I'd trade blast radius for more consistently applied damage, but in terms of effectiveness, it's right at where a mastery 6 gun that takes bazillions of resources and time and a rare resource should be.

I think it could stand to use sniper ammo (though it's kind of unnecessary except from a verisimilitude standpoint since even 70 rockets ala Paris arrows will probably be plenty) and that its 'silenced' trait should be removed too.

Personally, I think a hybrid system would be better as far as general sidegrade vs upgrade goes in general.

Like, you've got several tiers. Tier 1 is starters, and all starters are competitive with other starters. Tier 2 is braton, grakata, dera, and such like. All of them getting their costs vaguely normalized, and being competitive with each other, but generally superior to T1 guns. Then at T3 you've got Gorgon, Hek, etc. Same deal as before. Then at T4 you've got your top shelf weapons like Kunai, Supra, Ogris, Orthos, Scindo, etc.

Each gun is competitive within its tier, but clearly better than the tier before it. Not better in every way (eg Braton Mk1's mag and accuracy vs Braton Standard's damage and ROF - with mods you can almost turn the Mark 1 into a sniper version of the Standard actually)

This preserves the sense of progression for players, slows down the consumption of content since each tier takes a lot more time and resources to reach, and it doesn't kill variety significantly. The current mod system is flexible enough to allow a low tier gun to carry its weight even in high level play, and that's one trait that should be kept.

If they want to change design paths and strike down the road you want at least un nerf HEK,thunderbolt and gorgon. This double standard is the kicker that makes the idea of progression dead. Join a clan get your guns ignore all else. I only like shot-guns and sniper rifles so U8 is just a useless block of time for me. I do not care about dojo progression because I hate SimCity games.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

If they want to change design paths and strike down the road you want at least un nerf HEK,thunderbolt and gorgon. This double standard is the kicker that makes the idea of progression dead. Join a clan get your guns ignore all else. I only like shot-guns and sniper rifles so U8 is just a useless block of time for me. I do not care about dojo progression because I hate SimCity games.

I don't even understand what you're talking about here. What double standard? :|

[LazyKnight]

I don't even understand what you're talking about here. What double standard? :|

The reason given for Hek and gorgon where for reasons they were too powerful even as a rank locked weapon. They did not balance the Ogris by the same standard they nerfed HEK over.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

@Facehugger: You use cases of weapons that everyone would agree need to be buffed.  If the weapons were balanced, I don't see this as an issue.

 

 

Someone got more kills than a Saryn? The gods must surely be upset.

What's the obvious answer?
 

If you have the innate skill to handle pressing 4 repeatedly on a Saryn, you have rightly earned your #1 spot on the kill list. Pressing left mouse repeatedly is obviously for noobs.

You uh..  Wow...  Okay, first off, I said nothing about the balance of the Saryn.  I said nothing so as to indicate whether or not it is OP.  I did however indicate that it was very powerful and that the Ogris appeared to be moreso.  I didn't specify how much, but I clearly identified where the Ogris as too-much-damage.  I never said a Saryn spamming 4 earns the top kill spot or that it's a skill.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The reason given for Hek and gorgon where for reasons they were too powerful even as a rank locked weapon. They did not balance the Ogris by the same standard they nerfed HEK over.

Let's be fair here. The Hek was too powerful. Prior to the damage fall off being implemented, the Hek was broken in a way that Ogris simply isn't. You could use it at any range, it was a hitscan projectile with massive damage and near-perfect accuracy, plus it benefits from shotgun mods instead of rifle ones, meaning you've got higher caps on damage and multishot.

Ogris isn't even in the same league as the pre-nerf Hek for brokenness.

 

@Facehugger: You use cases of weapons that everyone would agree need to be buffed. If the weapons were balanced, I don't see this as an issue.

You don't see the issue with a sidegrade from the Braton or the Gorgon (Dera or Supra respectively) taking many times the money and resources to construct, with the resulting product not being quantifiably better than the first gun most players will buy an hour into the game?

What motivation is there for someone to put the effort into getting the sidegrade gun, then? What, grind for mastery? Liking the aesthetics?

Unless the prices on clan weapons are slashed massively, players are going to keep on thinking that clan weapons should be better than normal guns... Because of how much effort it took to get them.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[LazyKnight]

Let's be fair here. The Hek was too powerful. Prior to the damage fall off being implemented, the Hek was broken in a way that Ogris simply isn't. You could use it at any range, it was a hitscan projectile with massive damage and near-perfect accuracy, plus it benefits from shotgun mods instead of rifle ones, meaning you've got higher caps on damage and multishot.

Ogris isn't even in the same league as the pre-nerf Hek for brokenness.

 

You don't see the issue with a sidegrade from the Braton or the Gorgon (Dera or Supra respectively) taking many times the money and resources to construct, with the resulting product not being quantifiably better than the first gun most players will buy an hour into the game?

What motivation is there for someone to put the effort into getting the sidegrade gun, then? What, grind for mastery? Liking the aesthetics?

Unless the prices on clan weapons are slashed massively, players are going to keep on thinking that clan weapons should be better than normal guns... Because of how much effort it took to get them.

The cost of the unreasonable priced clan weapon was a measure of a content bottle neck, that I think DE though would be so insane that people wouldn't bother with them for at least 4-6 weeks. HEK wasn't that OP in what a shot gun can do any more than Ogris is for what an RPG or rocket can do.

 

You had to at least be able to AIM to use a HEK it wasn't an AOE killer. Ogris can hit up to 10 NPC at once the damage done on 10NPC  is far in excess of that of what a single kill weapon can do.

 

If they are measured by the same standard then orgis shouldn't be able to use mods and its damage should be fixed without mod scaling.  I can give you a math break down if you require it for why an AOE weapon is king of the damage dealers. HEK is no longer the king of anything its fall of damage makes it a point blank weapon only I wish they had just removed it instead of the fall-damage mechanism.

 

Clan weapons are not even part of the main game and are part of an artificial category of clan exclusive weapons. If anything they should be a down grade over standard weapons and skins only.

 

I have no issues with upgrades as a design approaches but this method is just a sloppy content bottle neck. Rank requirements are not hard to get I am rank 9 and I stopped trying to get higher. I only got this rank because I wanted the number 9 portrait.

 

Weapon progression system normally involve upgrading to stronger variant and/or a tier system. Rank requirements are not sufficient of a requirement to be a progression of anything other than status. It is not a good system because of how the game handless rank progression and not because of the ranks themselves. When ranking up requires nothing more than mindless grinding out affinity with useless weapons to gain rank to unlock other good weapons its nothing more than a clumsy content bottleneck.

 

It would be better to find a different method than use mastery rank to determine if a player was skilled* enough to be able to use a flamethrower. It would make more sense to me that the developers would make a really difficult encounter in the game or have NPC that use the weapon be the source of obtaining it. This would always allow them to make new content new boss add new weapons and keeping that carrot dangling in front of the player leading them into investing hundreds of hours in a game.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[RealityMachina]

 

Clan weapons are not even part of the main game and are part of an artificial category of clan exclusive weapons. If anything they should be a down grade over standard weapons and skins only.

This is an utterly terrible idea and I'm flabbergasted as to how you think it could be anything else.

Edited June 30, 2013 by RealityMachina

[LazyKnight]

This is an utterly terrible idea and I'm flabbergasted as to how you think it could be anything else.

How many people would care if weapons like a braton vandal were the only things being in a clan offered? How many games have you played anyway? Word of Warcraft tried a similar idea years ago and failed because of exclusivity and lack of clan cohesion. If you have nothing to add quick one liners are not exactly going to convince me of your position or the superiority of it.

[RealityMachina]

How many people would care if weapons like a braton vandal were the only things being in a clan offered?

Presuming you think the Braton Vandal is a downgrade compared to the regular Braton, probably very pissed it if they were being asked to use a material that's clearly intended by the devs to be a "please give us money so you can get this much, much easier" item in order to build these things. Since, you know. The whole point of being heavily encouraged to pay for certain things in a F2P game is that you're getting benefits much quicker in exchange for paying. Giving them the exact opposite of that does not tend to be a profitable strategy.

 

In fact it's the sort of strategy that would probably get front page news on sites like Joystiq or Forbes as a prime example of what not to do in your F2P game.

[LazyKnight]

Presuming you think the Braton Vandal is a downgrade compared to the regular Braton, probably very &!$$ed it if they were being asked to use a material that's clearly intended by the devs to be a "please give us money so you can get this much, much easier" item in order to build these things. Since, you know. The whole point of being heavily encouraged to pay for certain things in a F2P game is that you're getting benefits much quicker in exchange for paying. Giving them the exact opposite of that does not tend to be a profitable strategy.

 

What system am I advocating? Saying something is a dead end is not the same as giving a 101 of a new system. So progression is everyone joining bro frame or one of the large blob clans? What is your counter argument how is this anything but quicker consumption of content that anything else done by Nexon?

 

Clan based activities do not extend the life of the game 2 days they already discovered that. Honestly I can't even name a reason why it worth while to make a HEK because there is nothing in game require a weapon to kill that leads a to reward in gameplay.

 

Last I checked this game is in beta other  games that have been out a while have a define market strategy.

In fact it's the sort of strategy that would probably get front page news on sites like Joystiq or Forbes as a prime example of what not to do in your F2P game.

 

Would have made Aion/ Vindictus die years ago and be on the cover can name a dozen games so do not be condescending know nothing.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The cost of the unreasonable priced clan weapon was a measure of a content bottle neck, that I think DE though would be so insane that people wouldn't bother with them for at least 4-6 weeks.

I don't think so, considering that DE did decrease the costs. They're still crazily high. Supra takes 7 fieldron to make, plus 1k alloy, plus 7k salvage. Each fieldron taking 10 fieldron sample, 1 control module, 250 plastids, and 500 salvage. It took 10 fieldron before.

 

HEK wasn't that OP in what a shot gun can do any more than Ogris is for what an RPG or rocket can do.

Hek trivialized all content in the same way that prenerf Chaos did. You waved it in the enemy's direction and they died, no matter the range.

 

You had to at least be able to AIM to use a HEK it wasn't an AOE killer. Ogris can hit up to 10 NPC at once the damage done on 10NPC  is far in excess of that of what a single kill weapon can do.

Yes, and in the time it takes to charge that Ogris, launch it, and for that rocket to hit (unless the enemy shoots it down, of course), I can pop six of those NPCs, reload, and then pop six more with my properly modded prenerf Hek. They also don't need to be clumped up. They just have to be in a position that I can shoot at them. Moreover, I can do it at any range, and I don't have to worry about chargers getting in my face or blowing myself up.

That's assuming I don't flub the charging. Which happens occasionally. It's not nearly as point and click as the prenerf Hek was.

Seriously, you haven't even used the Ogris. You have no goddamn idea how easy or hard it is to use. You have no basis to claim it does or does not take skill to use.

 

If they are measured by the same standard then orgis shouldn't be able to use mods and its damage should be fixed without mod scaling.  I can give you a math break down if you require it for why an AOE weapon is king of the damage dealers.

Don't be daft. An AOE weapon's total damage might be 30,000 or whatever, but its single target damage is considerably lower. It has the benefit of being able to hit multiple targets at once, which is one of Ogris' only three strengths, but "hurr durr rocket launcher deals more damage because it's AOE" is obvious.  

 

HEK is no longer the king of anything its fall of damage makes it a point blank weapon only I wish they had just removed it instead of the fall-damage mechanism.

 

Are you kidding me? The Hek is still amazing. The only thing it can't do now is snipe people. It can still shoot across a room effectively, which is all a shotgun should be doing.

 

Clan weapons are not even part of the main game and are part of an artificial category of clan exclusive weapons. If anything they should be a down grade over standard weapons and skins only.

Way to make clans feel good about spending boatloads of resources building their dojo labs, yeah?

I get that you have a wholly irrational hate of Clan weapons and clans, but it's pretty bad that you're saying that people who enjoy clans shouldn't have fun too.

Clan based activities to not extend the life of the game 2 days they already discovered that.

My clan coordinating to do research and build the dojo certainly didn't extend the life of the game for my clanmates and I. Nope, nope, nope.

Lolwhat?

Edited June 30, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[LazyKnight]

I don't think so, considering that DE did decrease the costs. They're still crazily high. Supra takes 7 fieldron to make, plus 1k alloy, plus 7k salvage. Each fieldron taking 10 fieldron sample, 1 control module, 250 plastids, and 500 salvage. It took 10 fieldron before.

 

Hek trivialized all content in the same way that prenerf Chaos did. You waved it in the enemy's direction and they died, no matter the range.

 

Yes, and in the time it takes to charge that Ogris, launch it, and for that rocket to hit (unless the enemy shoots it down, of course), I can pop six of those NPCs, reload, and then pop six more with my properly modded prenerf Hek. They also don't need to be clumped up. They just have to be in a position that I can shoot at them. Moreover, I can do it at any range, and I don't have to worry about chargers getting in my face or blowing myself up.

That's assuming I don't flub the charging. Which happens occasionally. It's not nearly as point and click as the prenerf Hek was.

Seriously, you haven't even used the Ogris. You have no goddamn idea how easy or hard it is to use. You have no basis to claim it does or does not take skill to use.

 

Don't be daft. An AOE weapon's total damage might be 30,000 or whatever, but its single target damage is considerably lower. It has the benefit of being able to hit multiple targets at once, which is one of Ogris' only three strengths, but "hurr durr rocket launcher deals more damage because it's AOE" is obvious.  

 

 

Are you kidding me? The Hek is still amazing. The only thing it can't do now is snipe people. It can still shoot across a room effectively, which is all a shotgun should be doing.

 

Way to make clans feel good about spending boatloads of resources building their dojo labs, yeah?

I get that you have a wholly irrational hate of Clan weapons and clans, but it's pretty bad that you're saying that people who enjoy clans shouldn't have fun too.

My clan coordinating to do research and build the dojo certainly didn't extend the life of the game for my clanmates and I. Nope, nope, nope.

Lolwhat?

I give up talking to you about ogris it is like talking to a wall. 

 

I do not hate(that word implies force of conviction) I have no use for a clan when I log on and just want to play the game then log of at my leisure. If DE want to make a clan focused game fine, I do not care anymore either, I started before there was support for clans and only continued because I didn't think they would take this direction.

 

I just find clan stuff boring to the extreme degree plain and simple. I have no reason to even continue playing so even to say I am quitting over clan weapons is beyond a stretch I do not care anymore.  I play with clans in games that have raids there are no raids in this game or thing to do with large groups in warframe. The dojo idea is so boring to me I do not care at all about it. Consider this me quitting out of boredom, spin that as a rage post if you want too.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Tempera]

I give talking to you about ogris is like talking to a wall. 

 

I do not hate(that word implies force of conviction) I have no use for a clan when I log on and just want to play the game then log of at my leisure. If DE want to make a clan focused game fine. I do not care anymore either, I started before there was support for clans and only continued because I didn't think they would take this direction.

 

I just find clan stuff boring to the extreme degree plain and simple. I have no reason to even continue playing so even to say I am quitting over clan weapons is beyond a stretch I do not care anymore.  I play with clans in games that have raids there are no raids in this game or thing to do with large groups in warframe. The dojo idea is so boring to me I do not care at all about it. Consider this me quitting out of boredom, spin that as a rage post if you want too.

Dude. Not finding a clan system interesting doesn't make it bad content.

 

And, uh, clans are not and should never be primarily focused around raids. They are ways of organizing groups of like-minded players to do content that the players enjoy. This can include raids, but it can also include crafting, group play in regular PvE environments, PvP events, and basically whatever the hell the clan wants to do.

 

There's nothing in-game to support large-scale clan runs, but there's plenty in-game to support the social aspects of a clan.

[LazyKnight]

Dude. Not finding a clan system interesting doesn't make it bad content.

 

And, uh, clans are not and should never be primarily focused around raids. They are ways of organizing groups of like-minded players to do content that the players enjoy. This can include raids, but it can also include crafting, group play in regular PvE environments, PvP events, and basically whatever the hell the clan wants to do.

 

There's nothing in-game to support large-scale clan runs, but there's plenty in-game to support the social aspects of a clan.

I did not say it was bad* just Dojo centric content doesn't fit the game when 100% is easy to solo. I'll come back in 6 months and see what DE has done. Just not going to pay anymore or play till beta is over, unless an update is really good.

 

I have a unresolvable stick NAT because my ISP is annoying and doesn't help my attitude about being locked out of content. This is the only game I have issues with so I have motivation to do something else.

Edited June 30, 2013 by LazyKnight

[MJ12]

I did not say it was bad* just Dojo centric content doesn't fit the game when 100% is easy to solo. I'll come back in 6 months and see what DE has done. Just not going to pay anymore or play till beta is over, unless an update is really good.

 

I have a unresolvable stick NAT because my ISP is annoying and doesn't help my attitude about being locked out of content. This is the only game I have issues with so I have motivation to do something else.

 

I solo 99% of the time and the Dojo-centric content has increased my enjoyment of the game.

 

FYI: Did you know that you can join a clan, contribute to the Dojo, and use Clan weapons without ever playing with another player?

 

Because you can.