Juha_Bach Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I think that Loki might not be the best choice for new players as a starting frame. When you start the game you can pick one out of three. Well rounded Excalibur, Mag for players that value support with some AoE action when needed and Loki which has "for advanced players" in its description. Honestly you should be careful with what you give to the new players, picking your first frame will have major impact on your potential costumer's first impression of the game. Low shields and health on top of lack of offensive powers is a bad start for many and may become a turn off for people that might not even give the game another chance if theirs' first experience with the game goes badly. I am well aware that this game has not much to do with the Holy Trinity but since lots of people that will be interested in this game will have some MMO background, therefore I strongly believe swapping Loki with let's say Rhino might give better results. New players will have an option to choose from light support (Mag), a tank (Rhino) and something in between (Excalibur), it feels way more simple and straightforward to me. Players can choose if they want to be sturdy but slow, fast and aggressive or play as a support oriented frame. To sum up I would like to refer to "for advanced players" in Loki's description and let me start by saying that this Warframe is my favorite and I seriously doubt new frames will be able to make me put him away for longer than few days. When you start the game for the first time you are everything but an advanced player, this makes quoted phrase above look like a taunt for those that like to challenge themselves but in reality you need to know how this game works and have some upgraded mods, which sometime are hard to find and almost impossible to get on Mercury alone. Those people that like sneaky, invisible play style will pinpoint Hyene in the Solar System and hunt it down like a defenseless animal until they get what they came for. That is because they will have an idea how to move around and have some starting mods that they could eventually carry over to Loki. Please share your opinions about the matter. tl;dr I propose switching out Loki for Rhino at the starting point, because Loki is not suited for beginners with no capital, mods and knowledge about the game. It may also make some new players quit because they will just die a lot and look at the back of that shiny Excalibur slash and dashing' in front of them, they will feel useless and just quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X3Evanescence Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Rhino is an XP locked Warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juha_Bach Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 Rhino is an XP locked Warframe. Ugh... I totally forgot about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) Also, you should warn newbie players that if you DON'T take Excalibur, the only way to get Excalibur is to fight the hardest boss in the entire game, who is on the highest-level planet (not counting Void 3 of course). If you take Excalibur, you never have to worry about Ambulas. You gotta deal with either Nef Anyo (LOL, 2nd easiest boss in the game), or go kill Hyena (something you are likely going to do no matter what Warframe you're trying to build due to Control Modules and how infrequently they drop). If you take any other starter frame, you get to have fun with Ambulas for God Knows How Many Times it will take you to get the 3 Excalibur pieces. Edited June 27, 2013 by Xylia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalGerbil Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) i started with loki and it shaped much of what i think about the game now. and i wouldnt have become a founder if i didnt like him so damn much. i can understand your reasoning but i think its misplaced. you shouldnt treat new people like noobs to be hand held. given training wheels until they are all grown up. the label is there to be informative. i read the description and knew what i wanted. later on as i got on my excaliber or mag or rhino for that matter, i know that my impression of the game wouldnt have been as good, because they dont fit my play style. those three choices offer a nice set of variety for players to pick from. in that sense i think they work well. Edited June 27, 2013 by MetalGerbil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juha_Bach Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 Ugh... I totally forgot about that. I suppose next on my list would be Trinity, some people might pick that when they read healing powers or support and she's pretty good. She isn't XP locked or is she? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitfly Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 No offense, but just because you think Loki is too complex it doesn't mean new players will find it hard to use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archistopheles Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Fighter, Mag, Rogue The system is perfect like it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Fighter, Mag, Rogue The system is perfect like it is now. I agree, tho I do wish they'd move Excalibur off of Ambulas and give him to someone a bit more reasonable. A starter frame shouldn't drop off the last boss in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishi Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Considering the scope of the game, they definitely need a stealth started.Who but Loki? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Considering the scope of the game, they definitely need a stealth started. Who but Loki? Ash is also a Stealthy type. But Ash might be a little too powerful for a starter frame? I dunno, I never played Ash so I couldn't tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishi Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Ash is also a Stealthy type. But Ash might be a little too powerful for a starter frame? I dunno, I never played Ash so I couldn't tell you. Stealthy is key word, not stealth, stealthy. Ash probably would auto-win low levels with his 1k base damage ult, but the idea is, Loki is frame loyal to the concept of stealth moreso than Ash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juha_Bach Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 No offense, but just because you think Loki is too complex it doesn't mean new players will find it hard to use When I think new player 0 credits, 0 mods, 0 mod slots come to mind. With 75 shield and 75 hp for someone that doesn't know which way to go, it leaves no room for mistakes. I don't think Loki is complex at all, he's pretty straightforward in my eyes - invisible slaughtering machine, the problem is you need mods, energy and knowledge where you want to go with him. Why people that just launched the game for the first time have an option to pick something for advanced players (I'm thinking more resourceful rather than skilled). It is true that many will pick Loki because it fits sneaky play style that many adore, I know it fits mine perfectly and those people will instantly fell in love and make it through but I also have seen comments how bad he is, how new players are left behind and others killing mobs too fast, that he is like a piece of paper and simply put he's not the best choice to start the game with in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X3Evanescence Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I suppose next on my list would be Trinity, some people might pick that when they read healing powers or support and she's pretty good. She isn't XP locked or is she? Rhino is the one and only XP-locked Warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 When I think new player 0 credits, 0 mods, 0 mod slots come to mind. With 75 shield and 75 hp for someone that doesn't know which way to go, it leaves no room for mistakes. I don't think Loki is complex at all, he's pretty straightforward in my eyes - invisible slaughtering machine, the problem is you need mods, energy and knowledge where you want to go with him. Why people that just launched the game for the first time have an option to pick something for advanced players (I'm thinking more resourceful rather than skilled). It is true that many will pick Loki because it fits sneaky play style that many adore, I know it fits mine perfectly and those people will instantly fell in love and make it through but I also have seen comments how bad he is, how new players are left behind and others killing mobs too fast, that he is like a piece of paper and simply put he's not the best choice to start the game with in my eyes. Uh, the game warns you that Loki is for ADVANCED players. It says that in-game IIRC. So.....you get a "Well-Rounded", a "Support" and an "Advanced" Frame. How many people are really going to pick Loki if they know nothing about Warframe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juha_Bach Posted June 27, 2013 Author Share Posted June 27, 2013 Uh, the game warns you that Loki is for ADVANCED players. It says that in-game IIRC. So.....you get a "Well-Rounded", a "Support" and an "Advanced" Frame. How many people are really going to pick Loki if they know nothing about Warframe? Are you suggesting that Loki is the least popular choice of the 3 starters? Maybe people that know nothing about the game should have better option to choose from. How many ADVANCED players are there amongst new players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Are you suggesting that Loki is the least popular choice of the 3 starters? Maybe people that know nothing about the game should have better option to choose from. How many ADVANCED players are there amongst new players? Well, I dunno about other people but when I start a new game and the game tells me "This _____ is for Advanced players!" I.......tend not to choose that one, because in most games that tell you that, it is harder to use and more complicated and is for....well...advanced/veteran players. Players who are starting over again who already know how to play the game are the ones who usually choose that one. That's what I thought when I was a new Warframe player. I was thinking... "Gee, Support, Well-Rounded or Advanced? I don't know anything about this game really so I'm not going to take the Advanced one.... and I want to be able to do stuff solo..... so Support doesn't sound all that great....so Well-Rounded it is!" I bet a lot of people think that when they get their Choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZWarhammer Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I feel like ember could be a good starter frame alternative to mag, except her ult she is't a mage per say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I feel like ember could be a good starter frame alternative to mag, except her ult she is't a mage per say. Errr, what? She throws fireballs, she pounds the ground to burn everything near her, and she sets everything nearby on fire, all magey things. Her #2 is a damage reducer that is VERY powerful. I'm not sure she's a good choice for starting frames, she might be a little powerful. She's ridiculously overpowered in low-to-mid level content with just #2 and #3 and nothing else slotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urash Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 I think it should be Excalibur, Mag, Loki, and Rhino because that's the four that were in the open beta launch trailer. Must feel silly to go, "Hey, liked that prerendered trailer, huh? You can play all those guys EXCEPT THIS ONE >:L, HE'S OFF LIMITS TILL YOU LEVEL UP FIFTEEN WEAPONS." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MACIS Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 WOW RHINO SHOULD REPLACE HIM! no, he took forever for me to get, put ember instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arch111 Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 If covert style is givde more attention in the coming updates, and Loki gets a better introduction, that will mean he will be chosen more. I love playing him as I love to sneak. However it has taken me 26 levels and mods like flow, contunuity, shields, vitality to the really make him a powerful frame. The tank-lovers wont like him, rushers will. besides, what is more ninja then the shadow you never saw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleischkloppa Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 (edited) If you take Excalibur, you never have to worry about Ambulas. You gotta deal with either Nef Anyo (LOL, 2nd easiest boss in the game), or go kill Hyena (something you are likely going to do no matter what Warframe you're trying to build due to Control Modules and how infrequently they drop). Ambulas is a very easy boss.Nef is easier, I grant you that, but Hyena and Ambulas are pretty much on par since once you got your frame to 30 and potatoed with decent weapons the "difficulty" of each boss is not how hard he is to beat but more how long it takes to kill him - in the case of Nef a few seconds, but both ambulas and the hyena can take quite a shooting.Ambulas takes a little more, that´s right, but it´s highly unprobable that a player that chose an other frame than excalibur at the beginning would choose excalibur as his second frame - and every player will be geared up and experienced enough by the time he starts farming for his 3rd frame that Ambulas will not be a problem anymore. Also, Loki mag and Excalibur fit very well as starting choices, would not change. Edited June 27, 2013 by Fleischkloppa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylia Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Ambulas is a very easy boss.Nef is easier, I grant you that, but Hyena and Ambulas are pretty much on par since once you got your frame to 30 and potatoed with decent weapons the "difficulty" of each boss is not how hard he is to beat but more how long it takes to kill him - in the case of Nef a few seconds, but both ambulas and the hyena can take quite a shooting.Ambulas takes a little more, that´s right, but it´s highly unprobable that a player that chose an other frame than excalibur at the beginning would choose excalibur as his second frame - and every player will be geared up and experienced enough by the time he starts farming for his 3rd frame that Ambulas will not be a problem anymore. Also, Loki mag and Excalibur fit very well as starting choices, would not change. Ambulas is a lot faster and has more deadly attacks than Hyena. All Hyena has is his rockets (if you get into melee range, he'll stomp but that's meh and he has electric shield, again, not all that hard to get around), Amublas can pull you in, knock you down and Firestomp you. Ambulas is also faster and smaller meaning he's harder to hit, and has a lot more health than Hyena does (given some 20 level difference). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nykxx Posted June 27, 2013 Share Posted June 27, 2013 Loki is the most usefull of the starter frames in higher level play. Invisibility is a huge damage buff and lets you kill bosses way more easy than a mag ever could. Decoy is also good in defense missions. I think its cool that he is one of the three starter frames but the description should be better. It should be very clear, that he has low health and shields and is pretty weak in the beginning of the game, when you start out. But you get a good reward later on for picking him. Maybe a little gameplay video with a description of the powers from lotus for each frame would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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