De: Please Improve The Dodge Maneuver (Redesign Suggestions In Op)

[krisp]

YES! TAKE ALL OF MY UPVOTES!

Just watch, we'll be speedrunning the Four Kings, Ornstien and Smough, and Lord Geyn with these roll buffs.

Gotta do it at SL1 though. Game's just not hard enough nowadays.

 

Seriously, though: adding an effect to each roll is development time wasted + an extra headache as a certain roll WILL turn out to be broken somehow no matter how much you fine-tune it.

 

I'd be happy with just some iframes and a faster roll. Put a cooldown on it to prevent spam, no need for unintuitive diminishing returns mechanics.

[ValhaHazred]

adding an effect to each roll is development time wasted + an extra headache as a certain roll WILL turn out to be broken somehow no matter how much you fine-tune it.

I don't think many people think it would be wasted time. I think taking a few weeks to implement these would be the best possible use of their time outside of bug fixes right now.

Dodge and block are completely useless right now, and the Frames need more functionality.

And so what if one is better than other dodge moves. As long as the frame that has it isn't the best at everything it just becomes a + on its list of pros and cons.

[krisp]

I don't think many people think it would be wasted time. I think taking a few weeks to implement these would be the best possible use of their time outside of bug fixes right now.

Dodge and block are completely useless right now, and the Frames need more functionality.

And so what if one is better than other dodge moves. As long as the frame that has it isn't the best at everything it just becomes a + on its list of pros and cons.

It's a very small part of the game that doesn't warrant a few weeks development time though. I'd rather they just code in some minor changes and tweaks rather than revamp the whole system, add SFX and increase development time retroactively for each warframe.

[Sherbniz]

Rhino

Evasion Type: Mobility

Evasion Name: Skate

Description: Rhino rapidly slides in the chosen direction. Identical to Frost's move, with different visual effects.

Rhino, being a BIG, beefy Warframe should have a devastating, tumbling and thundering attack like a landslide!

Doing a thundering sidestep like a Sumo-ringer that tumbles anything in his path, maybe gives him temporary damage resistance...

[Mak_Gohae]

The developers can't rely on people using X, Y and Z mods. A player who plays Ash may not bother with Deflection/Fast Deflection because the primary purpose of that frame is to avoid getting hit, for instance. Similarly, a player who plays Ember may use Deflection and Vitality, but they will not grab Fast Deflection because they can instead go for Flow, Continuity, Stretch, and so on, to extend the duration of Ember's abilities.

 

These are all valid methods of play, but they do not rely upon using a set of mods that uses Fast Deflection.

 

As such, mods are an ancillary item. The developers can rely on people using mods, yes, but they cannot rely on the players using specific mods that encourage the players to play in a specific way. Furthermore, they would not want to, as that would reduce game variety.

 

Thus, mods are not supposed to be needed for core gameplay functionality. They should be completely optional, simply allowing the player more versatility in play. (Not that DE is very good at this; there are certain mods that you simply need to get the best out of your weapons, such as Serration/Hornet Strike.)

 

 

This is why the game offers different options to accomplish this. Fast deflection is just one of them.

 

Simple; those are movement mechanics that are simply being used for damage avoidance purposes- and used badly, at that.

 

Sprinting/jumping are primarily movement mechanics that can be adapted (poorly) for damage evasion/avoidance purposes. A dodge roll's primary function is damage evasion/avoidance; mobility comes in a distant second.

 

I keeps me from getting damaged... i dont see how they are bad when this is accomplished.

I am one of the few people that has never cried about the Infested no matter the version because i can easily avoid them with all the movement options. And, no, that doesnt mean climbing a box.

 

And, my primary complaint: Rolling in this game is simply not useful.

 

It is not very much faster than simply moving. Jumping out of the way is roughly as fast, with the benefit that you can also convert the jump into grabbing onto an object. It has no invincibility frames, meaning it's worthless for use against high-damage attacks when the only way to dodge them is to move fast; you can simply sprint through the attack area. You cannot use it to avoid being stunned, or knocked down.

 

It's worthless as a game mechanic as it currently stands. Thus, the developers should either get rid of the ability entirely, or change it so that it is actually useful. And as I dislike removing mechanics when they can be made useful, I will vote for changing it so that it is useful.

 

The game offers different types of avoidance which all work at different levels.

With rolling i can roll pass a whole mess of exploding runners and not be staggered once.

This is what i do now on a regular basis, i do not waste bullets on runners anymore i just roll pass them.

 

 

Again, a Warframe without mods should perfectly encompass the default style of play. Going "if you use a mod you can play the game like it's being advertised, a fast-paced shooter where you don't need cover" kind of... proves the point? Which is the entire reason evasion or damage mitigation moves that don't involve cover need buffs. Generally major ones.

 

There is no default style of play in Warframe. In Warframe each frame has his/her own stats that effect the way they are played, if you play Ember like you play Rhino you are going to by dying a whole mess of times. This is why you cant compare a game where you play on single character to a game that offers several options which require you to adjust each time.

 

"Shield on top of the health" is actually irrelevant. Because 100% of your effective health in Vanquish regenerates, versus (in the case of Warframes like Saryn) 25%. And yes, it has several attacks that help in avoiding damage. There are a ton of ways to avoid damage in Vanquish, which is important because it proves that doing so does not instantly make a game 'no-skill'.

 

Shield on top of health DOES matter because you have a layer before you start taking damage actual damage. You have a cushion, this game is not one-hit and you are dead, in this game you are given a window on top of several option on how to evade damage from movements to special abilities.

 

If this suggestion was for one of those new special abilities DE has said they were going to add im fine with that. But giving a free special move on top of moves you are given is a bit much.

 

And Vanquish from what i saw is specifically a cover shooter so that pretty much means that evading mechanics are a HUGE part of the game. Needless to say.... this game is not a cover shooter that revolves around that mechanic. BTW, the rolling on that game looks to be worst than in this game, at least at the start. 

 

It has to do with the low quality of your counterargument, which is "you don't need it", a terrible argument when we're talking about videogames. You don't need to play Warframe, so why bother posting? Why bother playing? You could get a job and make money! You need money to live comfortably. It's a stupid argument that something is 'unnecessary' in a video game because by definition video games are unnecessary.

 

I didn't just say you dont need it.

This is my WHOLE post

 

This sounds like a new attack rather than a dodge.

Anyway, we have regenerating shields on top of health which really don't need to have an extra move that grant invulnerability.

And on top of all of that we move fast enough with mods or sliding to get away and avoid damage.

 

You dont need the addition of a move that grants you invulnerability because of all the layers the game gives you to do that. The post was just 3 sentences..... why did you just pick out two words and replied to that like this was my whole point ?

 

What's the point of doing that? If you are going to reply to someone at least use one complete sentence. I mean.... freaking anyone can pick a random couple of words from any of your posts and call it a weak argument.... but what's the point?

 

THIS was stupid and unnecessary.

 

No, it really isn't. The only thing it's useful for is getting away from Infested Chargers, which "walk backwards" does approximately as well.

 

You can roll past anything, to start,  you can quickly roll sideways while aiming to stop being hit for a few seconds or get to cover. You can avoid the stagger from exploding runners by rolling. There are severa luses you can to apply to the move to make some use of it. I think the problem im seeing as i write this is that the roll doesnt have a defining feature to tell you what to do with it which is why your new roll move actually have ONE defined purpose.  

 

Fact is, "avoid damage" is a core gameplay function. With the post Update 7 increases to enemy lethality, you can no longer tank shots on high level worlds, which means that suddenly what seemed like dodge being effective turns out to be an illusory placebo effect, that existed due to the fact that enemy damage was fairly low to begin with. You shouldn't have to equip mods on a Warframe to avoid damage. In my experience, Loki was more survivable than Rhino. Why?

 

This is not a cover-based game. There isnt this HUGE amount of avoiding that you need to do. You dont need extensive abilities made specifically for that when there is so much stuff around at your hands. At least not free, if this was a new move that you would have to replace from one the equip ones it would be fine.

 

Because Loki's very high speed (twice Rhino's!) allowed him to avoid damage from Corpus attacks and Infested very easily (while Rhino just had to eat it to the face), which meant that even though he had way less HP and shields he was effectively way tougher. This is what happens when you make a core gameplay mechanic require mods for a Warframe.

 

This point is, of course, ignoring the fact that Rhino can still roll, slide, jump, and has a list of moves that consists of knocking the enemy down.......which actually puts above Loki in "toughness."

 

Because that's a mobility mechanic, a movement mechanic, used poorly for evading damage, whereas you should have a dedicated move for avoiding damage. Something like... a dodge move? Also, because they're really bad at it. Enemies still can track you pretty easily while 'sliding/jumping around', which is most visible when fighting the Grineer who have hitscan weapons. If enemies are to be lethal enough that you can have 'challenging content', like people demand, without frustrating fake difficulty, you need effective tools to avoid damage.

 

Tools which we completely lack.

 

Yeah, just like i said above, you want a move that SCREAMS "USE THIS TO AVOID DAMAGE! THIS MOVE IS TO AVOID DAMAGE!" Strangely, you do not want to use all the tools you are given simply because of whatever label you planted on them.

 

And BTW, you can actually loose enemies if you move around and use the environment.

In this video which i made in Ceres i easily loose a Grineer by using the box in between us.

He looses me and is waiting for me to appear where i was while i come around from the other side.

So you see..... movement is an ACTUAL tool that you use for evading easily and successfully.

 

 

[MJ12]

There is no default style of play in Warframe. In Warframe each frame has his/her own stats that effect the way they are played, if you play Ember like you play Rhino you are going to by dying a whole mess of times. This is why you cant compare a game where you play on single character to a game that offers several options which require you to adjust each time.

 

Except they aren't exactly "several options" because powers aren't mandatory for use (and are often underpowered) and characters have nearly identical animations and out of the powers, statistics don't vary that much, especially after movement speeds were consolidated so that Rhino's at 0.9 and Loki's at 1.25. Also, if you play Ember like you play Rhino you'll do at least as well because Ember is actually a better tank. Not a great example. See, the idea I have would actually make them "several different options", as would a significantly better energy regeneration system. You're not suggesting either of those. You're not suggesting an alternative.

 

You're just insisting, in your usual fashion, that everything is "fine as is" and needs no changes whatsoever. Even when it's blatantly not.

 

Shield on top of health DOES matter because you have a layer before you start taking damage actual damage. You have a cushion, this game is not one-hit and you are dead, in this game you are given a window on top of several option on how to evade damage from movements to special abilities.

 

No, it doesn't matter. The only difference between regenerating health and regenerating shields + non-regenerating health is that in the latter case less of your actual durability regenerates. This is important because in Vanquish 100% of your durability regenerates, while in Warframe as little as 25% of it can regenerate. The fact that your health is split into 'shields' and 'health' is window dressing. It does not mean anything, because Warframe does not have 'gating' mechanics. Furthermore, Vanquish is also not "one-hit and you are dead", you're given a window on top of several options on how to evade damage.

 

Turns out invulnerability frames in your evasive moves are still a good thing in that case. But hey, it's almost like I've actually thought about this.

 

If this suggestion was for one of those new special abilities DE has said they were going to add im fine with that. But giving a free special move on top of moves you are given is a bit much.

 

And Vanquish from what i saw is specifically a cover shooter so that pretty much means that evading mechanics are a HUGE part of the game. Needless to say.... this game is not a cover shooter that revolves around that mechanic. BTW, the rolling on that game looks to be worst than in this game, at least at the start.

 

Vanquish is a "cover shooter" in the sense that cover exists as a crutch and skilled players will go through the game with cover use percentages in the single-digits, using mobility to evade attacks. So you're mistaken, yet again. BTW, its roll is much faster than Warframe's and has invincibility frames, which is the whole point. Something I keep pressing on and you keep ignoring. Furthermore, "giving a free special move on top of moves you are given is a bit much"? Man what? Most of these 'special moves' are purposely underpowered minor effects (a momentary stagger, a slight armor debuff) added to an evasion move.

 

The point is that, like a character in a fighting game, or in a RPG, you should be unique. The only reason it'd be a 'bit much' I can see from your posts is that you have this idea that a special move must use energy and must replace another power because this is how things must be done. This is a shallow and incredibly limiting vision of game design, especially because there are a ton of special moves that could be extremely useful if they weren't limited by this arbitrary design limitation of having to use energy and having to replace powers actually worth their energy cost.

 

I didn't just say you dont need it.

This is my WHOLE post

 

This sounds like a new attack rather than a dodge.

Anyway, we have regenerating shields on top of health which really don't need to have an extra move that grant invulnerability.

And on top of all of that we move fast enough with mods or sliding to get away and avoid damage.

 

You dont need the addition of a move that grants you invulnerability because of all the layers the game gives you to do that. The post was just 3 sentences..... why did you just pick out two words and replied to that like this was my whole point ?

 

What's the point of doing that? If you are going to reply to someone at least use one complete sentence. I mean.... freaking anyone can pick a random couple of words from any of your posts and call it a weak argument.... but what's the point?

 

THIS was stupid and unnecessary.

 

Yes, you didn't just say "you don't need it". You said that we don't need it because we can do fine with just the crappy evasive moves we have already. Which is blatantly false.

You can roll past anything, to start,  you can quickly roll sideways while aiming to stop being hit for a few seconds or get to cover. You can avoid the stagger from exploding runners by rolling. There are severa luses you can to apply to the move to make some use of it. I think the problem im seeing as i write this is that the roll doesnt have a defining feature to tell you what to do with it which is why your new roll move actually have ONE defined purpose. 

 

Yes, I'm aware that rolling lets you 'avoid' stagger from exploding runners. You know what else lets you avoid stagger from exploding runners?

 

Walking backwards. This comparison demonstrates my point. And you're right, a game should tell you what moves do. Have you seen Japanese brawler-type games? They often have very advanced mechanics which require a significant skill ceiling to reliably take advantage of, all of which are generally listed. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance has a tutorial on dodge offsets, as does Bayonetta AFAIK, which are basically high-level animation cancels that you practically need to play at the harder difficulty settings.

 

A move should explain what it does fully and completely. It may have interactions with other moves (like cancels and higher priority) that don't need to be explicitly stated but should also be implied. A move that doesn't tell you what it does should be well-documented. Not that good documentation on roll would change anything because it is a bad evasive move which is what I've been talking about. All it does is let you avoid stagger from close-range enemies, something that walking backwards also helps with. It does not protect against the majority of threats from 2 out of 3 factions any better than walking in a zigzag pattern.

 

This is not a cover-based game. There isnt this HUGE amount of avoiding that you need to do. You dont need extensive abilities made specifically for that when there is so much stuff around at your hands. At least not free, if this was a new move that you would have to replace from one the equip ones it would be fine.

 

So... if I play as Ember or Volt and shoot things in the open while moving around, because there isn't this "HUGE amount of avoiding that you need to do", I should be fine, right? This isn't a cover-based game, after all. Wait a minute, I'm not. I have to hide behind boxes all the time because enemies on high-level worlds have 100+ dps per enemy

This point is, of course, ignoring the fact that Rhino can still roll, slide, jump, and has a list of moves that consists of knocking the enemy down.......which actually puts above Loki in "toughness."'

 

You mean the slow roll that doesn't protect him against gunfire or damage? The slow slide that doesn't protect him against gunfire or damage? The slow jump that doesn't protect him against gunfire or damage? Those point-blank AoE knockdowns that require him to get up close to the enemy? Nope. Mak_Gohae, please stop being a condescending twit and recognize that you're talking to someone with 300+ hours in the game, I do in fact know what I'm talking about, thank you very much.

Yeah, just like i said above, you want a move that SCREAMS "USE THIS TO AVOID DAMAGE! THIS MOVE IS TO AVOID DAMAGE!" Strangely, you do not want to use all the tools you are given simply because of whatever label you planted on them.

 

And BTW, you can actually loose enemies if you move around and use the environment.

In this video which i made in Ceres i easily loose a Grineer by using the box in between us.

He looses me and is waiting for me to appear where i was while i come around from the other side.

So you see..... movement is an ACTUAL tool that you use for evading easily and successfully.

 

 

No, I want a tool that's effective at doing what it does. You're acting like being able to hide behind a box is a demonstration of how movement is effective at evading easily and successfully, when in reality all it demonstrates is hiding behind a box lets you avoid enemies. Which is... duh? I pointed out that it was the only effective way of mitigating damage that didn't involve killing enemies before they attacked you that all Warframes shared.

[MJ12]

It's a very small part of the game that doesn't warrant a few weeks development time though. I'd rather they just code in some minor changes and tweaks rather than revamp the whole system, add SFX and increase development time retroactively for each warframe.

 

"Better animations and more Warframe uniqueness" is a pretty big part of the game, because even assuming an endgame materializes a lot of the game is going to be 'building and leveling up more Warframes', so you want them to play as differently as possible.

 

Yes, a faster dodgeroll with invulnerability frames would be okay. But if I'm going to suggest something I don't want to suggest "merely okay", I want to suggest something great. A fair few of these animations could be repurposed, and also be used to enemies the ability to dodge as well (so Flameblades/etc could teleport dodge, guys like Nef Anyo could superspeed-dash dodge, etc). I'm guessing they're going to be putting in a lot of animations anyways, might as well have some more for dodging.

[ValhaHazred]

Hey I should bring this to the Council. We have a thread on questions we want to ask the animators. I definitely want to know if they are willing to do something like this.

Edit: Never mind, a lot of the questions where close enough. I hope we get an answer in Livestream 9.

Edited July 1, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[Mak_Gohae]

Except they aren't exactly "several options" because powers aren't mandatory for use (and are often underpowered) and characters have nearly identical animations and out of the powers, statistics don't vary that much, especially after movement speeds were consolidated so that Rhino's at 0.9 and Loki's at 1.25. Also, if you play Ember like you play Rhino you'll do at least as well because Ember is actually a better tank. Not a great example. See, the idea I have would actually make them "several different options", as would a significantly better energy regeneration system. You're not suggesting either of those. You're not suggesting an alternative.

 

 

Can you please define what you think "default style" means to you because here you go on to say that powers shouldn't be included then go on to defend Ember by, im pretty sure, using her powers.

 

Until we both have an understanding of what "default style" is this is going nowhere fast.

 

 

You're just insisting, in your usual fashion, that everything is "fine as is" and needs no changes whatsoever. Even when it's blatantly not.

 

My usual fashion of saying you can work with the tools you are given in the game. When people complain about the game i offer a different point of view and some advice on what you can do with what you have.

 

Unless there is an actual definite unworkable aspect we should't simply cry foul because you (the general) dont want to work with what is available.

 

 

No, it doesn't matter. The only difference between regenerating health and regenerating shields + non-regenerating health is that in the latter case less of your actual durability regenerates. This is important because in Vanquish 100% of your durability regenerates, while in Warframe as little as 25% of it can regenerate. The fact that your health is split into 'shields' and 'health' is window dressing. It does not mean anything, because Warframe does not have 'gating' mechanics. Furthermore, Vanquish is also not "one-hit and you are dead", you're given a window on top of several options on how to evade damage.

 

Turns out invulnerability frames in your evasive moves are still a good thing in that case. But hey, it's almost like I've actually thought about this.

 

It's your view that all the of the health in Vanquish equals health+shield in this game.

My discussion wasnt about what equals what but to point out all of the different layers the game has.

 

 

Vanquish is a "cover shooter" in the sense that cover exists as a crutch and skilled players will go through the game with cover use percentages in the single-digits, using mobility to evade attacks. So you're mistaken, yet again. BTW, its roll is much faster than Warframe's and has invincibility frames, which is the whole point. Something I keep pressing on and you keep ignoring.

 

The point is that there is a cover mechanic, it doesnt matter what you think of it or not the point is that the game is built around that playstyle. And the roll, from what i saw on youtube was literally was just rolling like a yard to the left. Maybe later on that get's buffed? Mind showing some examples?

 

 

Furthermore, "giving a free special move on top of moves you are given is a bit much"? Man what? Most of these 'special moves' are purposely underpowered minor effects (a momentary stagger, a slight armor debuff) added to an evasion move.

 

It means you get a free special move. That's it.

Having an attack that does damage and gives invulnerability at no cost is a lot.

 

 

The point is that, like a character in a fighting game, or in a RPG, you should be unique. The only reason it'd be a 'bit much' I can see from your posts is that you have this idea that a special move must use energy and must replace another power because this is how things must be done. This is a shallow and incredibly limiting vision of game design, especially because there are a ton of special moves that could be extremely useful if they weren't limited by this arbitrary design limitation of having to use energy and having to replace powers actually worth their energy cost.

 

I would agree to this being a new move because there are too many benefits at no cost.

Stamina is really not this tremendous thing that is absolutely needed.

 

 

Yes, you didn't just say "you don't need it". You said that we don't need it because we can do fine with just the crappy evasive moves we have already. Which is blatantly false.

 

How is it false?

If the options available to you were such huge piles of crap dont you think a whole mess of people would be flipping out? I dont see that.

 

 

 

Yes, I'm aware that rolling lets you 'avoid' stagger from exploding runners. You know what else lets you avoid stagger from exploding runners?

 

Walking backwards. This comparison demonstrates my point. And you're right, a game should tell you what moves do. Have you seen Japanese brawler-type games? They often have very advanced mechanics which require a significant skill ceiling to reliably take advantage of, all of which are generally listed. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance has a tutorial on dodge offsets, as does Bayonetta AFAIK, which are basically high-level animation cancels that you practically need to play at the harder difficulty settings.

 

A move should explain what it does fully and completely. It may have interactions with other moves (like cancels and higher priority) that don't need to be explicitly stated but should also be implied. A move that doesn't tell you what it does should be well-documented. Not that good documentation on roll would change anything because it is a bad evasive move which is what I've been talking about. All it does is let you avoid stagger from close-range enemies, something that walking backwards also helps with. It does not protect against the majority of threats from 2 out of 3 factions any better than walking in a zigzag pattern.

 

Yes, like i have been saying, the game offers different option on how to tackle the situation and it's awesome that it lets you do pick what you want to do instead of, "Do X move to counter Y attack."  That would be tremendously boring.

 

Warframe is like... art.

It gives you use a palette which you can use to create all sort styles of art.

That's the beauty of this game.

And confining that into set patterns just destroys any freedom the player is given.

 

 

So... if I play as Ember or Volt and shoot things in the open while moving around, because there isn't this "HUGE amount of avoiding that you need to do", I should be fine, right? This isn't a cover-based game, after all. Wait a minute, I'm not. I have to hide behind boxes all the time because enemies on high-level worlds have 100+ dps per enemy

 

This is, of course, an example of a solo player, correct?

So, yes, when playing solo you need to be more careful and be smarter about your movements.

And, needless to say, this game is a co-op shooter first so trying to balance the game based solely on a certain play style of a solo player is tremendously faulty.

 

 

You mean the slow roll that doesn't protect him against gunfire or damage? The slow slide that doesn't protect him against gunfire or damage? The slow jump that doesn't protect him against gunfire or damage?

 

Evading means exactly... what it means, evade.

Evading doesnt mean i will ignore damage, evading mean i will move away from damage.

You do not want an evade move you want a safe button that also repositions.

You want baby Iron Skin.

 

 

Those point-blank AoE knockdowns that require him to get up close to the enemy? Nope. Mak_Gohae, please stop being a condescending twit and recognize that you're talking to someone with 300+ hours in the game, I do in fact know what I'm talking about, thank you very much.

 

 

Stomp max range 20 meters. Stretch can expand it

Radial Blast max range is 10 meters. Stretch can expand it.

Bastille max range is 9 meters. Stretch can expand it.

Snow Globe and Avalanche max range is 10 meters. Stretch can expand it.

Miasma max range 10 meters. Stretch can expand it.

Sound Quake max range 18.Stretch can expand it.

 

 

I COULD......................................................... make a joke about Mr. 300+ I-do-in-fact-know-what-I'm-talking-about, thank-you-very-much................................................................but i am not going to.

 

 

No, I want a tool that's effective at doing what it does. You're acting like being able to hide behind a box is a demonstration of how movement is effective at evading easily and successfully, when in reality all it demonstrates is hiding behind a box lets you avoid enemies. Which is... duh? I pointed out that it was the only effective way of mitigating damage that didn't involve killing enemies before they attacked you that all Warframes shared.

 

 

I didnt hide behind the box at all, i used movement to loose visual contact and gain an advantage.

And that was a simple move done by walking by, with roll there are more possibilities. 

 

DE is giving up the enough tools and a blank canvas to let you create want you want.

TAKE IT! IT'S YOURS!

 

[MJ12]

Ah yes, we've reached the endstate of any 'argument' involving Mak_Gohae. Where he insists that because there are workarounds nobody should ever attempt to suggest improvements to gameplay. I'm done with arguing against a stone wall who, instead of suggesting improvements to the suggestions or pointing out unworkable problems, simply pooh-poohs them because they're not "necessary" to the game.

 

And when people call him on that he claims they're 'uncreative' and spouts inane prattle like this:

 

Warframe is like... art.

It gives you use a palette which you can use to create all sort styles of art.

That's the beauty of this game.

And confining that into set patterns just destroys any freedom the player is given.

 

No, that's not the "beauty of this game". It's a lazy excuse that means nothing at all. It's just a kneejerk defense of the current state of the game (which, mind you, is a 'beta', and in traditional software development would in fact be called an early alpha because Warframe isn't even close to feature-complete). Funnily enough, going "well the game's okay as is" is not a good counterargument to "the game could be made better".

[Kyte]

My usual fashion of saying you can work with the tools you are given in the game. When people complain about the game i offer a different point of view and some advice on what you can do with what you have.

 

Unless there is an actual definite unworkable aspect we should't simply cry foul because you (the general) dont want to work with what is available.

Dude we're in the @(*()$ feedback forum for a game marked as beta which is in active development! The entire point of this place is to suggest more, new and/or better tools to play with! (Bug fixes and improvements fall under "better")

 

Don't you get it? You're actively undermining the point of not only this forum but DE's efforts for improvement!

I'm not gonna run the numbers but I'm sure there're tons of ideas that originally came from the userbase, not to mention in the livestreams they have shown interest in player-submitted ideas and suggestions.

 

So no, you shouldn't just conform to what you have right now, not if you can propose something better.

 

 

---

 

And to those little armchair project leads that are trying to shoot down the idea because it's too much effort. That's not your @(*()$ job. Leave the cost/return assessment to the guys who actually know about the project, aka the goddamn DE devs.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Kyte

[Flunky]

garbage

 

you are probably the worst poster on the entire forum, congrats

[Zeritol]

Having personalized dodge moves would help a lot with making the frames feel more different.  I also support having better dodges than the current roll one.  So long as they are balanced to not be better than some of the existing powers this could be very nice.

Your suggested ones are good although some of them I feel could use a bit of balancing / making sure they fit with the theme of the Warframe.  For example Loki's sounds fun but you would have to make sure it was not just a better but short range version of switch teleport.  (I could actually see switch teleport just doing that effect anyway but that's another discussion.) And I think rhino needs something more than just moving fast.  someone suggested a tackle like idea earlier and I feel like something like that fits the theme much better.  Other than that sounds like fun.

[Mak_Gohae]

Dude we're in the @(*()$ feedback forum for a game marked as beta which is in active development! The entire point of this place is to suggest more, new and/or better tools to play with! (Bug fixes and improvements fall under "better")

 

Don't you get it? You're actively undermining the point of not only this forum but DE's efforts for improvement!

I'm not gonna run the numbers but I'm sure there're tons of ideas that originally came from the userbase, not to mention in the livestreams they have shown interest in player-submitted ideas and suggestions.

 

So no, you shouldn't just conform to what you have right now, not if you can propose something better.

 

 

---

 

And to those little armchair project leads that are trying to shoot down the idea because it's too much effort. That's not your @(*()$ job. Leave the cost/return assessment to the guys who actually know about the project, aka the goddamn DE devs.

 

I'm not saying dont give feedback i'm just saying fully study what you are going to give a suggestion on before proclaiming its a total worthless crap that is horrible game design. Wanting something changed simply because you dont feel like using it the way it currently works is not feedback. That's simply, "Im lazy. Change so it works for me."

 

By the way, do you know if those ideas they took from the board came simply from one single post or from the conversation that evolved from it?

Should they add a more active ninja-like evade maneuver? Sure, why not. But the suggestion here is invulnerability + damage/stun....i think that is a lot gain with no disadvantage. Now, let's evolve this idea to something that DE might work with because a dozen page of "AWESOME! PLUS 1! DO LIKE! MAKE IT HAPPEN DE!" Is pretty much just wasted space and time by everyone.

[Tempera]

Wanting something changed simply because you dont feel like using it the way it currently works is not feedback. That's simply, "Im lazy. Change so it works for me."

The thing is, you're actually advocating the opposite. "It works for me. Don't bother changing it, because I can incorporate it into my playstyle."

 

As it stands, you haven't actually explained how the dodgeroll as it stands is a good mechanic. What makes it worth using over any other movement mechanic? What makes it a better choice, for me to use, than simply walking backwards, jumping over enemies, or sprinting past enemies?

 

And those aren't even very good examples. Those are examples of movement mechanics that are being adapted for enemy evasion purposes; the focus on them will always be on balancing them so that you are appropriately mobile for the tilesets being used in the game, not so that they remain appropriately balanced for you to escape enemies with.

 

The system MJ12 is advocating has its flaws; it would require a fair amount of work from the developers, and some of the skills might be initially broken and would have to be rebalanced. That is a fair amount of work, I will acknowledge; and there are bigger things the devs have to work on, like adding in actual endgame content, and adding in a tutorial that actually teachers players how to play the game.

 

Pretending that it's entirely worthless is beyond silly, though. It makes a move that is currently worthless viable; adds more individuality to each Warframe, while still sticking to each Warframe's themes; encourages player creativity in how they engage with opponents; and gives players more options in how they play the game.

 

So far, you have not presented anything that MJ12 has not already covered, and better than you have. If you wish me to withdraw my support for this idea, to stop it from reaching the dev's ears and being considered, then please explain why it is a bad idea, with reasoning beyond "I don't like it", "you can already work around it", and "I can use the mobility mechanics for this purpose already".

Edited July 1, 2013 by Tempera

[Mak_Gohae]

The thing is, you're actually advocating the opposite. "It works for me. Don't bother changing it, because I can incorporate it into my playstyle."

 

 

No, im saying not to call it a horrible piece of crap that is awful game design simply because you dont like the way it works currently. When do such a thing you show that you do not understand the game mechanic and your feedback is already faulty to start because you dont know what you are trying to adjust.

 

As it stands, you haven't actually explained how the dodgeroll as it stands is a good mechanic.

 

I mentioned several examples already.

 

What makes it worth using over any other movement mechanic? What makes it a better choice, for me to use, than simply walking backwards, jumping over enemies, or sprinting past enemies?

 

Why does it need to be better than something else?

Why can it just be as useful as something else?

Another option that offers different possibilities?

 

And those aren't even very good examples. Those are examples of movement mechanics that are being adapted for enemy evasion purposes; the focus on them will always be on balancing them so that you are appropriately mobile for the tilesets being used in the game, not so that they remain appropriately balanced for you to escape enemies with.

 

You can call it whatever you want but it still gives you a method to evade.

 

The system MJ12 is advocating has its flaws; it would require a fair amount of work from the developers, and some of the skills might be initially broken and would have to be rebalanced. That is a fair amount of work, I will acknowledge; and there are bigger things the devs have to work on, like adding in actual endgame content, and adding in a tutorial that actually teachers players how to play the game.

 

Pretending that it's entirely worthless is beyond silly, though. It makes a move that is currently worthless viable; adds more individuality to each Warframe, while still sticking to each Warframe's themes; encourages player creativity in how they engage with opponents; and gives players more options in how they play the game.

 

So far, you have not presented anything that MJ12 has not already covered, and better than you have. If you wish me to withdraw my support for this idea, to stop it from reaching the dev's ears and being considered, then please explain why it is a bad idea, with reasoning beyond "I don't like it", "you can already work around it", and "I can use the mobility mechanics for this purpose already".

 

I never said it was worthless i just said it's too powerful with the mechanic the OP has it functioning with.

To balance it i would rather have it as a new special move, if we are to keep the current concept exactly as described.

[ValhaHazred]

@ Mak_Gohae

If Warframe is art, why are you trying to stop us from adding exciting new colours?

I'm not saying dont give feedback i'm just saying fully study what you are going to give a suggestion on before proclaiming its a total worthless crap that is horrible game design. Wanting something changed simply because you dont feel like using it the way it currently works is not feedback. That's simply, "Im lazy. Change so it works for me."

 

By the way, do you know if those ideas they took from the board came simply from one single post or from the conversation that evolved from it?

Should they add a more active ninja-like evade maneuver? Sure, why not. But the suggestion here is invulnerability + damage/stun....i think that is a lot gain with no disadvantage. Now, let's evolve this idea to something that DE might work with because a dozen page of "AWESOME! PLUS 1! DO LIKE! MAKE IT HAPPEN DE!" Is pretty much just wasted space and time by everyone.

The problem with this is you don't offer alternatives. If you want to help "evolve the idea", do so. All you've done is provide a dozen posts of "don't change it because I'm fine with how it is".

Provide alternatives, don't just poo-poo an awesome idea that worked in other games with similar mechanics. Obviously it doesn't need to be those exact powers, they could all just be the same "flash step" for every frame for all I care if that's what it takes to improve dodge. It's like a negotiation, start big and then try and find a happy medium.

Any suggestion to improve dodge will be a big advantage with no drawbacks because the dodge currently does absolutely nothing. 0<everything!

[MJ12]

@ Mak_Gohae

If Warframe is art, why are you trying to stop us from adding exciting new colours?

The problem with this is you don't offer alternatives. If you want to help "evolve the idea", do so. All you've done is provide a dozen posts of "don't change it because I'm fine with how it is".

Provide alternatives, don't just poo-poo an awesome idea that worked in other games with similar mechanics. Obviously it doesn't need to be those exact powers, they could all just be the same "flash step" for every frame for all I care if that's what it takes to improve dodge. It's like a negotiation, start big and then try and find a happy medium.

Any suggestion to improve dodge will be a big advantage with no drawbacks because the dodge currently does absolutely nothing. 0<everything!

 

Oh but he did give "suggestions". Like "these should be powers because, as we know, what Warframe needs is another bunch of really crappy powers that use too much energy for their benefit."

 

And no, they aren't too powerful to be dodge moves. Oh no, you'll inflict a... minor debuff on enemies within a meter or two of your landing spot! Oh dear they might be staggered for half a second or take 33% more damage if they have armor damage resistance. They're powerful yes, but that's assuming they're free, and then they're still competing for a vital resource.

 

Time.

 

Nobody remembers this one. The time you spend dodging could be time you use shooting while sliding. Or just shooting while standing still. Any and every move in the game should be worth the time it takes to execute.

[ValhaHazred]

Oh but he did give "suggestions". Like "these should be powers because, as we know, what Warframe needs is another bunch of really crappy powers that use too much energy for their benefit."

Fair enough :p

Allow me to re-phrase - come up with good alternatives. Seriously, if he has better ideas we will agree with him and turn on you like fickle wild dogs! Not that I see that happening.

Edited July 2, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I never said it was worthless i just said it's too powerful with the mechanic the OP has it functioning with.

You can already do something similar right now, except it's even more powerful. I'm referring to jump slams with a melee weapon (if you add a cold mod it gets even more powerful, because your knocked down enemy will now take several seconds to get up.)

[Mak_Gohae]

@ Mak_Gohae

If Warframe is art, why are you trying to stop us from adding exciting new colours?

 

You arent really adding new colors you are restricting them.

Right now you can roll in 4 different directions and replacing that with an ability that reacts the same way all the time takes down the options of what can be done. This is why i suggest this would be better as a new ability.

 

The problem with this is you don't offer alternatives. If you want to help "evolve the idea", do so. All you've done is provide a dozen posts of "don't change it because I'm fine with how it is".

Provide alternatives, don't just poo-poo an awesome idea that worked in other games with similar mechanics. Obviously it doesn't need to be those exact powers, they could all just be the same "flash step" for every frame for all I care if that's what it takes to improve dodge. It's like a negotiation, start big and then try and find a happy medium.

Any suggestion to improve dodge will be a big advantage with no drawbacks because the dodge currently does absolutely nothing. 0<everything!

 

I did provide an alternative.

This would be cool as one of powers mentioned to be a general one that all Warframes can use.

I've said this several times already.

 

Oh but he did give "suggestions". Like "these should be powers because, as we know, what Warframe needs is another bunch of really crappy powers that use too much energy for their benefit."

 

Why would you call your own idea a crappy power?

 

And no, they aren't too powerful to be dodge moves. Oh no, you'll inflict a... minor debuff on enemies within a meter or two of your landing spot! Oh dear they might be staggered for half a second or take 33% more damage if they have armor damage resistance. They're powerful yes, but that's assuming they're free, and then they're still competing for a vital resource.

 

Time.

 

Nobody remembers this one. The time you spend dodging could be time you use shooting while sliding. Or just shooting while standing still. Any and every move in the game should be worth the time it takes to execute.

 

Being invulnerable plus dmg/stun at no cost, stamina means nothing, is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too powerful.

 

 

You can already do something similar right now, except it's even more powerful. I'm referring to jump slams with a melee weapon (if you add a cold mod it gets even more powerful, because your knocked down enemy will now take several seconds to get up.)

 

You are not invulnerable during this attack.

[CrashBashL]

YES !
In PVP you cant even dodge when someone charges you...like Rhino.
You use dodge, visualy Rhino missed you, but you take dmg !!
The hit box on you for when you are charged is so big !!
you cant dodge that.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

You are not invulnerable during this attack.

So? You're not going to be invulnerable during any of these dodge anims for very long either. Seriously, have you ever played any game that uses invulnerability frames in its dodges? They're called frames for a reason, and that reason is that they only take place over a matter of frames. Like, you've got 5 invulnerability frames. Sounds big, right?

Except most of the time the game is being played at anywhere from 30-60 frames per second. The amount of time you spend invulnerable is extremely small. So small, in fact, that it's hard to argue it's gamebreaking rather than gameenhancing.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[MJ12]

I did provide an alternative.

This would be cool as one of powers mentioned to be a general one that all Warframes can use.

I've said this several times already.

 

Except then you're still not fixing the issue, which is "dodge is wimpy and sucks". This is specifically intended to fix that issue.

 

Why would you call your own idea a crappy power?

 

Because it is. The intention was to make them specifically underpowered (notice that the most powerful dodges are... about as powerful as currently weak powers that need buffs, like teleport) compared to powers because they're not powers. They're supposed to be a tier below them.

 

Being invulnerable plus dmg/stun at no cost, stamina means nothing, is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too powerful.

 

And now we learn that you haven't read the OP, because I specifically mentioned that the ones which inflict stuns or debuffs have minimal invincibility frames because of this. Also, you have not given any iota of evidence that these would be 'waaaaaaaaay too powerful'. Okay you have a half-second animation which gives you 0.2secs of invincibility. If you spam this eventually you end up with 0 secs of invincibility. This animation may stagger enemies for a half-second.

 

How is this "too powerful"? You're saying, essentially, that any implementation of these would be too powerful without giving a single reason, besides "it's too powerful". Compared to what? Weak powers like fireball or teleport or super jump?

 

You are not invulnerable during this attack.

 

And you are not invulnerable during most of the dodge. Furthermore, the effect of the jump attack is significantly greater.

[Mak_Gohae]

Except then you're still not fixing the issue, which is "dodge is wimpy and sucks". This is specifically intended to fix that issue.

 

You have this issue of it not granting invulnerability as some sort major game breaking mechanic when it not.

This is a run and gun game where moving is what keeping you alive when you are not doing the other stuff that also helps.

Because it is. The intention was to make them specifically underpowered (notice that the most powerful dodges are... about as powerful as currently weak powers that need buffs, like teleport) compared to powers because they're not powers. They're supposed to be a tier below them.

 

You are getting 2 bonuses totally free with no disadvantages.

Whatever damage or stun length you get doesnt change the fact that you are still getting 2 bonuses for free.

 

And now we learn that you haven't read the OP, because I specifically mentioned that the ones which inflict stuns or debuffs have minimal invincibility frames because of this. Also, you have not given any iota of evidence that these would be 'waaaaaaaaay too powerful'. Okay you have a half-second animation which gives you 0.2secs of invincibility. If you spam this eventually you end up with 0 secs of invincibility. This animation may stagger enemies for a half-second.

 

How is this "too powerful"? You're saying, essentially, that any implementation of these would be too powerful without giving a single reason, besides "it's too powerful". Compared to what? Weak powers like fireball or teleport or super jump?

 

They are free, i mentioned this several times.

This is like the jump kick PLUS something else.

 

And you are not invulnerable during most of the dodge. Furthermore, the effect of the jump attack is significantly greater.

 

How about taking away the invulnerability and keeping the stun/dmg?