Rant about the Changes to Stealth

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

Hang on, are you saying that comboing those two arrows works for you? Because whenever I use noise arrow into sleep arrow, all of the sleeping enemies become alerted in their sleep by the first enemy killed. Which, notably, doesn't happen to enemies naturally grouped up and put to sleep. If noise arrow alerted enemies to begin with it'd make sense to me, but... they don't, because the first in a group still gets the bonus. Or all of them, if you kill the entire group at once with an explosive.

kinda wish explosions weren't one of the best stealth options

Yep it does, but the multiplier is still kinda iffy. But that doesn't bother me as much as it seems to with others.

edit: Please note that I haven't done a thorough test in this latest hotfix 19.0.3

Edited November 15, 2016 by DatDarkOne
added info

[-Sanatorium-]

Yeah gg DE......

Nerf stealth do the bottom (not that a lot of the community did level by stealth but still)

And force everyone to level their weapons on bere/akkad

Then obviously DE will nerf one of those two If not both and then force us to go to another place that rewards even lower xp because they hope that we will "learn our lesson" that speed levelling is not always the answer.

You know what, if you think that I am going to forma every weapon/warframe 3-6 times by just running normal missions, then you are definitely wrong.

You can go ahead and do that I don't care personally but there will always be a loot cave to get the fastest xp, fastest amount of resources, fastest money etc.

IN EVERY SINGLE GAME

Please stop nerfing stop it's not fun, go back and revisit the things that actually need to get a second look at cough hydroid cough and not nerf stuff just because you feel like it

Edit:

You can be the guy that has 5k hours in game by levelling "normally" but that still won't stop the whole community

Edited November 15, 2016 by -Sanatorium-

[p3z1]

19 hours ago, VisionAndVoice said:

Now you get a taste of what an actual stealth is like.

I approve of this change.

Read this quote below, before you say anything about actual stealth.

15 hours ago, The_Doc said:

"Actual stealth" would let us hide in the shadows, drag bodies away and distract enemies. So no, it's not actual stealth.

They decide to "balance" stealth, except they didn't balance it properly enough.

17 hours ago, b0_on said:

pretty sure currently stealth multiplier does not work at all (as in bugged, since removal of stealth for allies removed it altogether). 

It works, but the current multiplier system doesn't give enough affinity anymore.

19 hours ago, MobyTheDuck said:

My only problem with these changes is that enemies can detect bodies through walls and doors, and sometimes can detect their own corpses.

Sometimes I would kill a lone, unalerted Lancer with a single blow and I would lose the stealth multiplier because he actually detected himself being killed. Some other times I would kill one lone lancer, and the entire next room was alerted, even if there was a wall AND a door between us.

 Not exactly. It's probably just an enemy that recently spawned. I've gotten this enough times to prove it.

19 hours ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Actually it isn't completely dead, it just takes longer. And you can't just leave bodies sitting around anymore, so Channel Killing is a must.

It takes a HELL of a LOT longer. Channeling only buys you some seconds, but it doesn't eliminate the problem altogether.

[heisthex]

What other stealth game did is rewarding player for stealth play, and Warframe is about leveling and farming, so adding these stealth nerf isn't helping with the game and actually punish player for playing instead of rewarding, DE surely have anything against affinity farming.

[fatpig84]

Doesn't matter, do more Bere or Akkad !
I still stealth through with a dread, but I have to be very selective on when I shoot.

So a mission that takes 8 mins becomes 15 mins or so.
Oh well, better use for my time else where.

[p3z1]

1 hour ago, heisthex said:

What other stealth game did is rewarding player for stealth play, and Warframe is about leveling and farming, so adding these stealth nerf isn't helping with the game and actually punish player for playing instead of rewarding, DE surely have anything against affinity farming.

If that's your line of thought why don't they nerf berehynia and akkad first? Those 2 nodes have been used EXTENSIVELY (berehynia = draco), and they decide to nerf one of the less cheesier methods.

36 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

Doesn't matter, do more Bere or Akkad !
I still stealth through with a dread, but I have to be very selective on when I shoot.

So a mission that takes 8 mins becomes 15 mins or so.
Oh well, better use for my time else where.

I don't even like playing those nodes. Also, the current iteration of stealth takes more time and gives less affinity (dunno when they nerfed affinity gains for stealth, but I only noticed it yesterday, while leveling the [REDACTED].

[fatpig84]

1 minute ago, p3z1 said:

If that's your line of thought why don't they nerf berehynia and akkad first? Those 2 nodes have been used EXTENSIVELY (berehynia = draco), and they decide to nerf one of the less cheesier methods.

I don't even like playing those nodes. Also, the current iteration of stealth takes more time and gives less affinity (dunno when they nerfed affinity gains for stealth, but I only noticed it yesterday, while leveling the [REDACTED].

Well my riven mod was a level 30+ extermination with decaying dragon and no detection to boot.
So i very well know the problem. In fact I failed a couple of times as Loki and had to switch loadouts (no Im not using covert lethality cheese).

Then my good old Dread sorted me out.

[woah_dude]

1 hour ago, p3z1 said:

If that's your line of thought why don't they nerf berehynia and akkad first? Those 2 nodes have been used EXTENSIVELY (berehynia = draco), and they decide to nerf one of the less cheesier methods.

I don't even like playing those nodes. Also, the current iteration of stealth takes more time and gives less affinity (dunno when they nerfed affinity gains for stealth, but I only noticed it yesterday, while leveling the [REDACTED].

bere/akkad usually means a squad of 4 people, companies tend to favour something that boosts their playerbase numbers caz "game is growing, game is alive, lots of people, blah, blah, blah, insert reason here" It prolly also boosts sales of forma bundles or smtn, we never know, since we dont really have the numbers for anything really :) 

 

[p3z1]

8 minutes ago, b0_on said:

bere/akkad usually means a squad of 4 people, companies tend to favour something that boosts their playerbase numbers caz "game is growing, game is alive, lots of people, blah, blah, blah, insert reason here" It prolly also boosts sales of forma bundles or smtn, we never know, since we dont really have the numbers for anything really :) 

Then why did they remove Viver/E-Gate/Draco in the first place?

The only thing they have in common with stealth farming is affinity farming. Stealth is an option for solo players because either they hate PUGs, or have bad internets (I have both doe :|)

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

23 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

''Every time there is a major change we try it out with a new account'' they said. Why do I not believe it?

To be fair, a new account would not be MR9.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

On 11/14/2016 at 9:27 AM, p3z1 said:

1. Affinity gains were nerfed. Sure they were broken before, but at least up the counter. Currently, it stays at 500%, and it doesn't give that much. I've played a Saturn exterminate (Telesto) stealthily, burned 5 minutes, and only gained 2 weapon levels (11 -> 13). If I took the same amount of time in Berehynia, I'd probably have hit 30.

2. Enemies detecting bodies. Screw realism if stealth isn't rewarding enough. If the game wants realism, add fall damage for "thin" frames like loki and mag.

3. Delayed spawn mechanics + counter breaking. Enemies that have freshly spawned kill the counter, unless you perform a finisher at them. This wouldn't be a problem with Loki/Ivara/Ash, but other frames will have a bad time, coupled with the fact that enemies now detect bodies? Freshly spawned enemies shouldn't break the counter. Tested with full enemy radar mod loadout.

4. AI is broken sometimes. You'd see enemies running mindlessly, thinking that they'd be alerted. Check the map, and they aren't really alerted (hollow arrow).

5. Clumping enemies. Stealth is already a mess, then you guys put this in. Good luck stealthing with low-reach melee, non-explosive weapons, or not Ivara/Loki/Ash.

6. All of these factors tied in with a 30-second timer? A timer is fine, but with these mechanics, I think they need to buff the timer.

7. Oh yeah, other players don't benefit from stealth multipliers. Not really a problem for pubs/pugs, but for pre-mades this is a solid nerf.

I suggest the ff. be done:

- Enemies are pre-placed once the mission loads. This prevents "spawn farming." Maybe 1/3 of the current exterminate counter. Enemy counts revert to normal once alerted, and ddo not revert.

- Less enemies, removes the need for clumping. Maybe place units in LoS of each other.

- Buff affinity for stealth kills (+250% per counter, doubled for stealth finishers, up to 10x). Counter returns to current iteration if an alert is "shut down."

- Buff timer to maybe 45 seconds. This gives players time to pick another target.

- Revert the changes done against other players benefiting from stealth multipliers. If that sounds too broken, maybe half the affinity gain.

All of these because I don't want to nerf the "hotspots," rather I want other play styles to be able to compete. And DE seems to hate stealth in general, turning this game into more of a "blow up everything in front of you."

Honestly, there should NOT be a timer at all. The stealth combo should go as long as you remain undetected.  If you want to go full silly and spend 5 minutes to get a stealth melee finisher, then it should still count. Hell, that (i.e. stealthily stalking enemies) was part of the fun in games like Arkham Asylum.

[woah_dude]

Just now, p3z1 said:

Then why did they remove Viver/E-Gate/Draco in the first place?

The only thing they have in common with stealth farming is affinity farming. Stealth is an option for solo players because either they hate PUGs, or have bad internets (I have both doe :|)

Well this is a game about loot and leveling and if its TOO fast, the lack of stuff to do would hurt the playerbase (loosing interest) and would not drive sales of all sorts of boosters/plat/forma bundles/waever is on sale currently (aka $$$)

There is some twisted logic in pushing the co-op gameplay (not gonna say its a good or correct one, just that it exists), look at relics and how they treat soloers :) Plenty of companies has tried to push/favour co-op + multiplayer, caz of "insert reasoning here" on their part. Don't ask me, im not a Dev, i can only guess whats going on in the beautiful minds of [DE] :) 

[heisthex]

31 minutes ago, b0_on said:

Well this is a game about loot and leveling and if its TOO fast, the lack of stuff to do would hurt the playerbase (loosing interest) and would not drive sales of all sorts of boosters/plat/forma bundles/waever is on sale currently (aka $$$)

There is some twisted logic in pushing the co-op gameplay (not gonna say its a good or correct one, just that it exists), look at relics and how they treat soloers :) Plenty of companies has tried to push/favour co-op + multiplayer, caz of "insert reasoning here" on their part. Don't ask me, im not a Dev, i can only guess whats going on in the beautiful minds of [DE] :) 

Not when the game have Convergence orb to make you rushing to make as many stealth kills as much as possible to get the highest amount of affinity for focus farming.

I am still doing daily focus farming alone, soloing is much less punishing which might able to get me 12k - 16k of focus points in just one exterminate mission with carefully picking targets and retaining my stealth multiplier during the entire mission, versus picking a random team in a interception mission with a poor 50 meters affinity sharing range and wondering am I able to run from the group to get the darn Convergence orbs could jeopardize the on going killing.

Now DE decided to destroy the only thing I login to do daily and instead I can get 100k focus points in under 2 hours alone, I have to pick a public game with better ping than mine and hoping I am bringing meta frame and weapons. Why can't DE give people choice for doing solo or public, instead have to making enough changes to make players keep finding new place to farm affinity?

Are we having too much 'fun' a bad thing?

[woah_dude]

well, lets say with a standard premade team on bere from recruit with ev + dps (which is not banshee) + rhino  + 3 cps at least + affinity booster + smeeta occasional charm procs in 3 slow rounds (which is 21-22 minutes total) would net u about 90k focus, assuming u werent lucky with Charm procs. 

22-25 minutes is <<<<< than 2 hours or even an hour for me, so i use Bere ~_~ 

I wish u luck and PATIENCE though in your quest for fun, since u know, stuff is going to get abandoned again for months, which is obvious with Rivengate, upcoming Focus reworks, Prime Access and 2 new frames. 

[Floppinger]

On 14.11.2016 at 3:38 PM, VisionAndVoice said:

Now you get a taste of what an actual stealth is like.

I approve of this change.

Yeah, actual stealth has no room in Warframe. The game isn´t set up for this kind of gameplay.

No actual sneaking, no way to hide, no way to distract enemies, no way to hide bodies, no necessity for stealth at all and no practical use for stealth outside of farming focus/affinity.

If you want a stealth game, play Thief or Hitman or whatever.

Stealth in Warframe now is just.....why bother?

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Floppinger said:

No actual sneaking, no way to hide, no way to distract enemies,

You are wrong on these points.  You can do those things in Warframe.  You are correct that there isn't a way to hide bodies and no necessity to do stealth.  I will admit that outside of personal playstyles there really isn't a valid reason to do stealth in the game at this time.  I'll still do it, but that's me and my style. 

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

Playing high level stealth missions where the enemies are extremely dangerous to me is one of the most tense fun styles the game offers.  Its not rewarding to play but its fun.  Sad to hear a style of play has been neutered even further.  

[Lluid]

I agree with most, nerfing stealth is a bad idea, even hard to understand in terms player "abuse". Though I'd like to address the question from another point of view : frankly enemies ignoring dead bodies was ridiculous, so it's good they notice now. But while they're distracted by bodies, and as long as they don't see us, why can't we use stealth finishers on them ?

That's leading us to tweaking enemies' awareness. Here's my opinion on how it should work :

• unalerted. Nothing to say. Full xp bonus.
• half-alerted. They're looking for the source of something weird (seeing a corpse, but also seeing a broken container or an arrow on the floor). We should be able to finish them. But after a few seconds, they should call their allies in the vicinity to be "half-alerted" too. We could also use the radio of a dead enemy to bring his friends in unalerted state (that would require using a voice recorder maybe, fun aspect) ? Killing them wouldn't give bonus xp, but shouldn't reset the stealth counter.
• alerted. Triggers when they really see us (or we touch them) and they shoot where they think we are. It would raise other enemies' state to "half-alerted" only ! (but they would look in the same direction as the alerted enemy so they would see us in most cases, becoming alerted) Even when the alarm is up, enemies would only be "half-alerted". An alerted enemy reverts to "half-alerted" after around 2s without seeing you, and moves to your previous location, even if you're not invisible. Raising alertness should stop the stealth counter, even if we don't kill anyone.

I can see a major problem here : stealth would be too easy for invisible frames. Well, we should not get any xp bonus while invisible. From a "realism" point of view, we should not get much experience from doing something too easy right ?

Also, my proposal means that enemies would be vulnerable to stealth finishers most of the time. Yes, simply yes. As long as we are successful hiding from their sight, and we spend time for that, the damage bonus would be justified. But remember, no xp bonus on half-alerted enemies so it's fine.

Finally, different enemy types could behave differently : it would make sense for robots to share your precise location instantly, even with cameras, and become alerted. Some humanoid enemies might shoot longer at your last seen location, like in panic. Others would take cover like they already do.

I'd like to know what you think about these possible tweaks.

[cx-dave]

4 hours ago, Lluid said:

Also, my proposal means that enemies would be vulnerable to stealth finishers most of the time. Yes, simply yes. As long as we are successful hiding from their sight, and we spend time for that, the damage bonus would be justified. But remember, no xp bonus on half-alerted enemies so it's fine.

What's the purpose of a damage bonus without extra points? We can OHK with the correct melee setup in the usual Focus farming places, That's why DE made the nerf the way it is. They simply ran out of ideas for new tricks that they've been trying for the past 9 months.

...anyway already adapting and becoming more efficient again...waiting for the next nerf...maybe reduce the stealth timer DE? Whaddaya think...got the balls?