Rivens - Great idea, not so great execution

[MrKamikaD]

The idea behind Riven mods, according to DE words, was to bring new life to some lower-end weapons. This idea is simply great, but Rivens themselves have a few major flaws.

As there are currently 56 weapons (MK1, Wraith, Prime and other variants are not included) and 4 sentinel weapons, that can use Riven mod there's only ~1.7% chance for each weapon to get one. The mods have either 2 or 3 positive stats and may have 1 negative stat, all from the set of 24 which randomly choosen. The stats themselves have random value as well.

This was supposed to bring us diversity. What it gives is posibillity to get utterly worthless mod. There comes cycling (re-rolling), which itself can give us another utterly wortless mod again (even including option to stay with previous mod). Each subsequent cycle increases the cost of Kuva required to re-roll the mod. All this is done for a single Riven mod to be worth the slot in weapon.

Rivens affect both weaker weapons and those that are currently powerful. If the idea was to make older weapons viable option in newer and harder content, why there are Rivens for weapons currently powerful? If the Rivens for those powerful weapons have reduced stats they are going to be overlooked which from above gives sentence of removing them (with current limit of 15 mods). On the other hand, if the mods for those weapons are good enough to take place in the mod slot (which is way they are now), then they are drawing attention from weapons that were supposed to get a new life.

Of course, trading is possible, but estimating the prices for Rivens is a burden, taking into account only MR required, which weapon is it for, and stats on the mod, without the random values of stats and number of cycles done on mod.

All this gives an insignificant possibility for older weapons to become better and probability for further focus on current Power Houses among primary weapons, which wasn't the aim of Riven introduction.

 

Some suggestions of mine:

- Separate the idea of revitalizing old/weak weapons from Rivens

- Either:

• Make Rivens mods give each weapon permament, non-random boosts to stats, which removes cycling
• Make Rivens mods give each weapon a non-stat change, unique mechanic (e.g. Boltor becomes hit-scan; Supra shoots more lasers per shoot like a shotgun but shoots slower; Ignis base damage type becomes Cold, etc.) in a manner syndicate weapons have such mechanics.
• Make Rivens cycling system have higher, but constant costs, with option to choose which stats we want to keep (lock) and which to change (with increasing cost per stat locked), and possibly remove random stats value, so they become constant. (credits for idea to Brozime). This creates endgame content for vastly improving performance of any weapon.

- Review older/weaker weapons one at a time, bringing them updated to us with patches/hotfixes, just as you Devs do introducing weapons and warframes to Conclave, which were not availbe.

- EXTREME CHANGE: Review all the weapons, basing their estimated DPS around one number (both crit and non-crit builded), making all the weapons on par with each other. Possibly tiering their power in a manner (Just a simplified example: Tier 1 - Marketplace weapons, 2 - Dojo labs weapons,3 - Prime weapons, 4 - Syndicates weapons; or performance based around MR requierd. Maybe both at the same time), this would make us choose weapons based on how they work, look and how fun they are, because they would be equally powerful. There doesn't have to be "Loot Cave" everywhere :)

I'd like to know what Devs and other players think of my idea, and what ideas you have :D

Edited November 20, 2016 by MrKamikaD
No subsequent reveals

[light_ryuzaki]

well , at least they decreased the stats for the powerful ones, it's a start.

[MrKamikaD]

2 minutes ago, light_ryuzaki said:

well , at least they decreased the stats for the powerful ones, it's a start.

It' like 90% for Faint, 100% for Neutral, 110% for Strong. Does it make difference at all?

Edited November 20, 2016 by MrKamikaD

[light_ryuzaki]

Just now, MrKamikaD said:

It' like 90% less for Faint, 100% for Neutral, 110% for Strong. Does it make difference at all?

I don't know about numbers but my soma mod dropped around 33 %

[MrKamikaD]

2 minutes ago, light_ryuzaki said:

I don't know about numbers but my soma mod dropped around 33 %

Well ok, then maybe i have my numbers wrong :P But this doesn't change much with weaker weapons.

[Katinka]

41 minutes ago, MrKamikaD said:

We need to keep in mind, that each cycle requires you to redo challenge to reveal the mod.

No it doesn't.  That was taken out in the last Hotfix.

On 18/11/2016 at 11:16 PM, [DE]Megan said:

You will only have to Unveil a Riven Mod one time: on first discovery. Cycling no longer Veils Riven Mods.

44 minutes ago, MrKamikaD said:

Make Rivens mods give each weapon a non-stat change, unique mechanic (e.g. Boltor becomes hit-scan; Supra shoots more lasers per shoot like a shotgun but shoots slower; Ignis base damage type becomes Cold, etc.) in a manner syndicate weapons have such mechanics.

This I'd like, but I see it as something that would come later once the initial framework of the system in place.  They've already said that Riven is currently Rifle only because they wanted a limited test bed so I can imagine they will expand it to other weapons and even other effects now that the basic framework is in place, tested and tweaked.

47 minutes ago, MrKamikaD said:

Make Rivens cycling system have higher, but constant costs, with option to choose which stats we want to keep (lock) and which to change (with increasing cost per stat locked), and possibly remove random stats value, so they become constant. (credits for idea to Brozime)

I feel that this would remove one of the benefits of the randomness, encouraging people to try new things.  The escalating cost is there to encourage us to settle for something that looks okay and give it a shot instead of constantly cycling until we get the thing we think we want.  The random stats then make us use things we might not otherwise spend a slot on and maybe realise it does actually improve the feel of the weapon and thus improve our enjoyment more than squeezing out a little more DPS does.  In another thread someone mentioned getting Multi-shot and Reload Speed on a Soma and their first thought was to add it for silly amounts of Multi-shot but after using it they realised that the Reload Speed was what was actually making them enjoy using the gun more than before. 

I fear that if players are given choice over Riven mods then they'll just gravitate towards meta choices while the random system with escalating costs encourages us to try something different at some point, while allowing us some RNG mitigation in case the random result really is as bad as it can be.

[MrKamikaD]

@Katinka Ty for correction.

Quote

I fear that if players are given choice over Riven mods then they'll just gravitate towards meta choices while the random system with escalating costs encourages us to try something different at some point

 

Even without the reduced costs for rerollin, there are still stats, which people are seeking, like crit and +dmg. There are numerous people who settle for such stats, like you've mentioned, but i see majority running blindly for the meta stats. I see many posts in which peeps are saying, they simply trashed mods after 10th or so cycles, because they weren't META. I see your point, but leaving stats as they are currently will cause people to chase META, and instead of enjoying a change, they will simply get mad that they didn't get what others managed without such effort, which can lead even to leaving game for at least while.

I know exactly, that's just testing state of Rivens, and that's exactly why I mentioned three changes that seem to me very fine. Making Rivens set for each weapons; making them unique, yet optional mechanics, or making them very endgame mechanism, granting our weapons vast improvments, which is very good idea, since they're granted by one of hardest missions in game so far (I know we can argue 'bout that), and they're a bit hard to obtain this way :)

And the revisiting of old/weak weapons should be left separately. Don't do this by Rivens, since making it optional, it may become more of a burden, than sollution for trashing weak guns :)

Edited November 20, 2016 by MrKamikaD

[light_ryuzaki]

In my opinion , a good old balance system and  a buff based on playtime with the weapon may have been better . That way you could have played whit the weapon you liked , and get better stats on it for that .Riven may be somehow good , but I think it's too much randomness , and introduces a lot of grind. Sure for the economy of the game it's good , and the game needs that , but on the long term I don't know how the system will stand up. Guess that we will have to see it ourselves .

[MrKamikaD]

Just now, light_ryuzaki said:

In my opinion , a good old balance system and  a buff based on playtime with the weapon may have been better .

This itself is a good idea (maybe based more on dmg done, than playtime :P), in my topic i just adressed Rivens themselves, and revitalizing old weapons. The way your idea would be working at current moment, it would  still give way better buffs for Power Houses, than let's say a Braton :)

3 minutes ago, light_ryuzaki said:

Sure for the economy of the game it's good , and the game needs that

For long terms economy, i think players will get exhausted with grinding same thing over and over (refer to Trials - they're dead compared to when they were introduced, and trading with them flourished for a few months, now it's like abandoned). This economy model would work way better with Rivens being endgame content, just as i've mentioned in original post :)

[light_ryuzaki]

2 minutes ago, MrKamikaD said:

This itself is a good idea (maybe based more on dmg done, than playtime :P), in my topic i just adressed Rivens themselves, and revitalizing old weapons. The way your idea would be working at current moment, it would  still give way better buffs for Power Houses, than let's say a Braton :)

 

that's why I mentioned a clasic balance , and the thing is , that in that way you can play any weapon you want , the buff on the playtime or whatever will be the same for each weapon ,because playing will give you better stats .

[Archforge]

Im just gonna post here that I spent 1.2k plat in riven mods and 40k kuva. The best mod i had was a 10 cycled cernos riven mod with + electric + reload speed + flightspeed. Meanwhile my friend got a tetra riven mod with + crit chance, + base damage, + puncture damage. And that's his only riven mod while i have 3 sentinel weps and other crappy riven mods. sigh....

[MrKamikaD]

1 minute ago, Archforge said:

Im just gonna post here that I spent 1.2k plat in riven mods and 40k kuva. The best mod i had was a 10 cycled cernos riven mod with + electric + reload speed + flightspeed. Meanwhile my friend got a tetra riven mod with + crit chance, + base damage, + puncture damage. And that's his only riven mod while i have 3 sentinel weps and other crappy riven mods. sigh....

This!

Before there would be no situation, where you would spend loads of time and money and still have minor chances to get what other get :) Too random, to unfair and not on point with claim "bringing new life to old guns".

[Katinka]

Any Pt spent is a personal choice though and determined by the community.  There is no point in the Riven system where we can give Pt directly to DE to get something, only through player trades and player choice does Pt come into it.  If you don't think the Pt asked for is worth the random chance and time required to cycle it into something you want then don't buy it.  If peopel don't buy them the prices will drop (even faster than they will anyway just due to time and eventual market saturation).

Personally I'd like some Sentinel weapon mods.  Deth Rifle was one of the first weapons I put a Catalyst & Forma into because I knew it would always be there watching my back while I was working my way through mastering the various primaries I still had to work through back then.  I wouldn't mind giving the Deth Rifle or Vulklok an extra bit of kick.

[MrKamikaD]

2 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Any Pt spent is a personal choice though and determined by the community.  There is no point in the Riven system where we can give Pt directly to DE to get something, only through player trades and player choice does Pt come into it.

If you're saying that there's no ecenomic benefit for DE from rivens as they are, you're wrong. People want the rivens, many or not, they want. And plat isn't farmable, you can trade for plat, ofc, but initial point of getting this plat was buying it for real money. I'm not saying it's bad either, it's hard to get our plats worth from the current Rivens, since it's hard to estimate prices of those, because of their immense randomness and people will be overpricing them. Why? You have no point of refference to say "but most people sell this for...", since there's literally no second mod like other Riven, unlike it is with Primes or normal Mods.

[Katinka]

2 hours ago, MrKamikaD said:

If you're saying that there's no ecenomic benefit for DE from rivens as they are, you're wrong.

I'm not saying that at all.  I'm sure there are people who have bought Pt simply to spend on Riven mods.  What I'm saying is that it's not DE's fault if you do.  They aren't selling them for Pt.  If you decide a mod is worth buying for Pt then that is entirely on you.

[UltimateSpinDash]

They are glorified weapon augment mods with randomized stats. And while Steve said they won't be balanced around, it will give the Devs another excuse to ignore underpowered weapon (categories).

How is any of that good?