goodgimp Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) ***** I'm not making this post to whine, I'm simply trying to lay out my perspective to provide feedback to the devs and let them know why I'm leaving (but hoping to return). I know they're working on improving the game and I hope to come back at some point in the future. Again, the purpose of this thread is not to whine or be dramatic but to give them a datapoint as to why one individual person isn't playing anymore. ***** I've had a lot of fun with Warframe, I think the gameplay and setting are great and I love how they have supported the game. That being said, the nature of drops and item acquisition has led to me having more frustration than fun in the past couple weeks. Yes, I'm referring to the RNG. The problem I'm having is, as I obtain more items/mods, the pool of drops and mods that I'm looking for gets smaller and smaller and I have very little direct control in how to obtain them, it's almost entirely hoping for getting a lucky RNG roll. This leads to progressively more frustrating gameplay, as the ratio of "trash items" gets ever higher and finding mods/items you're interested in gets ever rarer. This spiral has led to some serious burnout on my part. Here's an example. I've spent literally hundreds of hours looking for Multishot mods for rifle and pistol. The friends I run with have found them (they've dropped in the same session I'm in, in fact) but I haven't gotten the right roll yet. Right now, my only recourse is to spend possibly hundreds of more hours looking for them and they very well still might not drop for me. I have very little control over the situation, I just have to cross my fingers and pray that the RNG gives me what I need instead of my 30,000th copy of Mind Control or Blunderbuss. That's just not going to cut it anymore, as I've become burned out on running trivial content over and over trying to find the items I need. I don't mind spending the time but I want to be making progress. It would be more acceptable to me if I could take 2,000 mods and a huge stack of credits to a "Mod Exchange" and convert it into what I want, because at least all the crappy mods I'm finding are at least slowly inching me towards my goal. Right now it's just a frustrating lottery. So, while I love the gameplay and the game in general, right now the way loot acquisition works (only RNG) is leading to me being frustrated to the point that I think I will put the game on hold. I know they've talked about addressing it, and I hope they do, because I'd like to come back to the game. Some random things I think would improve the game: -Less reliance on RNG, more control over the player on what items/mods they get. A long project to obtain something is fine, I don't mind doing the time but I want to be making progress. -More challenging content with better rewards. -I'd like to see the mod system tweaked a bit. Instead of the importance being on finding that FIRST mod of a type, I'd like to see mods have far more levels (like Serration and Redirection). I wouldn't mind finding so many damn Blunderbuss mods or whatever if they were at least incrementally boosting that ability. This would help the Warframe abilities as well, since they're so quick to max out and you find them soooo damn often. Anyway, I've had a lot of fun in my time spent on warframe and will be keeping my eyes on the game's development. Hopefully some changes in the future will make me want to jump back in, in the meantime happy hunting, Tenno! Edited July 2, 2013 by goodgimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure_Kytia Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 I can certainly respect that, and I applaud your ability to provide critical feedback whilst maintaining your cool. I hope to see you back sometime, once the game has been fleshed out and fixed up some more :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X3Evanescence Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Even as a sincere believer in my motto "Effort is the way of the world", I read through the whole thread and found that you made a lot of valid points whilst being able to resist the temptation to start raging in this thread. I salute your strength of character. RnG can be a devil sometimes. Even so... As this game rolls out more content, I solemnly hope to see you come back to Warframe. -Regards Evanescence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarWind Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 +1 to the thread, +1 more person who's "shelving" Warframe. I love the game, love it more than most people, but I am at maximum capacity for grind. I WILL be back, and I continue to check the forums almost daily, but last night I finally let my login reward reset. It's been about a week of logging in only for certain alerts (BPs that I already have mutliple copies of, but collect in hopes of trading) and to continue my login reward at Tier 3. For now, it's Firefall, MechWarrior Online, and SMITE. Someday, I'll re-re-awaken from cryosleep, and the Grineer will remember what it is to die one-hundred thousand deaths from one-hundred thousand arrows. PS: Most of the things the OP listed would also bring me back, along with the coming Dojo changes. Really, I am confident it is happening, it's just a matter of waiting it out in stasis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure_Kytia Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) Goodnight, sweet Tenno. Edited July 2, 2013 by Azure_Kyte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onbashira Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Split Chamber is the only mod I want anymore. The closest I can get to gunning for it is a 3% at the end of five waves on narc. If percentages improved as waves increased at least we could work towards getting these rare mods. Multishot is too necessary for high level play to have its acquisition be this arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey1779 Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) +1, DE is well aware of the affect RNG is having on the player base and I am looking forward to tomorrow's Livestream for more information. That being said, check out.. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/70201-june-26th-community-hot-topics/ Also, for those multi shot mods including Split Chamber check out... http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1fwen5/defense_rewards_updated/ Split Chamber is the only mod I want anymore. The closest I can get to gunning for it is a 3% at the end of five waves on narc. If percentages improved as waves increased at least we could work towards getting these rare mods. Multishot is too necessary for high level play to have its acquisition be this arbitrary. Split Chamber - Corpus Tier 3 - Endless Defense - 3% chance as wave reward Hell's Chamber - Grineer Tier 3 Barrel Diffusion - Infested Tier 3 Good luck with the defense missions. Edited July 2, 2013 by Mickey1779 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarWind Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 The real problem, Onbashira, is what do you do when you have Multi-shot? It just makes you even more efficient at already completed content. I have a Paris with every single mod maxed out, absurd numbers of formas in it, and all it does is allow me to re-complete content I had already completed. With the same weapon. I have almost every weapon and frame in the game (Not in a clan) and I still have one loadout with over 80% use in over 300 hours of play. I love the gameplay of this one true loadout, but it's just become pointlessly powerful. I don't even charge the Paris anymore unless it's high-wave defense, I just adjust for arc and casually toss arrows at people for one-shot kills. I find myself intentionally NOT slotting my 'Frames with Reactors, leaving the Catalysts in my arsenal and not in my weapons, just to limit myself and add difficulty. Levelling MAG with non-orokin'd gear was a good weekend diversion, but I have now run out of 'Frames I want to play. We strive for progression, for enhancement, but is that a good thing? For most of us (I assume) it's the expectation of needing that horded power at some point in the future. But in the mean-time, it's rusted away the once mirror polish of the game I love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twistank Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 While I was reading the OP I realized how much of a problem finding multishot mod can be for people that haven't played right after the update 7, when most of the rare mods were common and the most common mods were rare. For all of us old players who still have thousands of level 10 mods from the previous periods of the game, the main issue have become finding those new mods and materials so I can say that I for example miss only one of those new mods - the melee channel and I can honestly say that I don't give a damn as all of the previously earned rare mods were just a lucky drops I was not grinding for. The thing is, looking for certain mods in this settings, without even partial knowledge about the terms of finding those new mods seems just mindless. All of this lead to the point that solution for current mods RNG might be something similar to grinding those new rare materials like mutagen samples. The main update would be allowing the player to know where certain mods can be found on a mission level. I know some of this is already implemented as those useless resistance mods can only be found in the void as far as I know, forgive me if I am wrong here. tldr: Mighty fine thread with valid points while keeping the cool. Solution for mods RNG: Tell us where we can find them on a mission level. Make it variable, or maybe even a reward for certain achievements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 Steve said he likes RNG because it gives casual players a chance at the game. I say why not have both RNG and progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodgimp Posted July 2, 2013 Author Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) Steve said he likes RNG because it gives casual players a chance at the game. I say why not have both RNG and progression. Yea, there's definitely a place for RNG and I agree with him that it's a cool thing for casual players to win the occasional lottery, so to speak. That being said, it's a double-edged sword, because RNG can completely screw a casual player over as well. I actually have a friend in that boat, he can only play the game one night or so a week and he's probably as frustrated with the RNG system as I am. I agree with you that there should be both, Tangerine. RNG for the lucky lottery (as well as just variety/variance to spice things up) but it needs to be complementary to a progression system that the player has more control over. This is all just IMO, of course, I don't mean to sound like a Monday Morning Quarterback or anything. Edited July 2, 2013 by goodgimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onbashira Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 The real problem, Onbashira, is what do you do when you have Multi-shot? It just makes you even more efficient at already completed content. We strive for progression, for enhancement, but is that a good thing? For most of us (I assume) it's the expectation of needing that horded power at some point in the future. But in the mean-time, it's rusted away the once mirror polish of the game I love. Well its not the real problem as much as yet another problem. Both the RNG and lack of end game content cause player frustration and fixing one won't fix the other. As for striving for progression what else are we supposed to do? If someone didn't strive to progress in the game they would not play it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodgimp Posted July 2, 2013 Author Share Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) They could start addressing both problems by adding additional planets (or re-purposing existing ones) to be much more difficult. Right now, mobs typically get more HP and do a bit more damage as they level up. They could make higher level planets have additional threats, though, such as increased movement speed, special attacks (toxic ancients throwing poison? Healers lifetapping tenno? Grineer grakatas getting underslung grenade launchers? Railgun moas piercing Snow Globes and the like?). Once you have more challenging content in place, then you A) have a need/use for the best equipment and B) can have an area where the drop rate of rubbish like Mind Control, Fireball, Blunderbuss, Trick Mag, etc are reduced and the rates of more valuable/rare mods increased. I'd like a planet that requires a lot of teamwork and is very challenging but with the removal of a lot of the "trash" drops. Don't restrict mods to only drop here, but at least give them a higher rate. Now a player has a little more control, they can do easier farming and pray to the RNG gods or they can break a sweat to try to obtain the items they seek. Edited July 2, 2013 by goodgimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ariarch Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 +1, DE is well aware of the affect RNG is having on the player base and I am looking forward to tomorrow's Livestream for more information. That being said, check out.. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/70201-june-26th-community-hot-topics/ Also, for those multi shot mods including Split Chamber check out... http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1fwen5/defense_rewards_updated/ Split Chamber - Corpus Tier 3 - Endless Defense - 3% chance as wave reward Hell's Chamber - Grineer Tier 3 Barrel Diffusion - Infested Tier 3 Good luck with the defense missions. +1, DE is well aware of the affect RNG is having on the player base and I am looking forward to tomorrow's Livestream for more information. That being said, check out.. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/70201-june-26th-community-hot-topics/ Also, for those multi shot mods including Split Chamber check out... http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1fwen5/defense_rewards_updated/ Split Chamber - Corpus Tier 3 - Endless Defense - 3% chance as wave reward Hell's Chamber - Grineer Tier 3 Barrel Diffusion - Infested Tier 3 Good luck with the defense missions. The link lies. I got split chamber on a T3 infested defense. Xini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onbashira Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 The link lies. I got split chamber on a T3 infested defense. Xini. As a 5 wave clear reward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scwMortise Posted July 2, 2013 Share Posted July 2, 2013 The main problem I have with the game so far is stems from running and re-running the same repetitive content again. Players who just literally run through the levels time and time again to obtain a drop from a boss. Perhaps this could be countered by making the random trash mobs drop things of some value (recipies / blue prints etc) at a very low drop chance or even parts that can be made into something bigger? Just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHeraldXII Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Good work making a valid post explaining this. I'd like to add an extra bit of info to back you up. In my circle of friends, 5 others started playing around the same time I did and have since given up on this game, all 5 of them, and for the same reasons you did. This is actually a very valid criticism of the game and it's one of those points which really determines whether people are willing to invest their time, and hopefully money in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatpig84 Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Gotta keep at it, keep at it.... Keep at it all the way.... Keep playing Def rounds to wave 15. Quit rinse and repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alocrius Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 +1 Shelving for now. Daily rewards reset. Playing Airmech and Fallen enchantress to keep my strateg-ery strong. Turns out thats what's missing from Warframe, strategy. For me anyway. Goodnight sweet Tenno, see you in several updates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gameoverman Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I'm bored too. Might take a break for awhile, only coming back for the occasional alert or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Kittens- Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) Steve said he likes RNG because it gives casual players a chance at the game. I say why not have both RNG and progression.But it doesn't. It's a skinner box, and that's all it is. It's pretty clear DE wants Warframe to become the WoW of 3ps scifi shooters, which means things will be kept simple, direct, easy and with an immensely wide and shallow progression path.While it's a proven fact that skinner boxes keep people addicted to things for a time, that time isn't necessarily spent constructively or well, in some cases. There is absolutely the framework for a great game here. There is absolutely the skeleton for an immensely engaging piece of craft to be built. But that's literally what it is. A skeleton. Without a very clear progression path setup and the appropriate lore and extra stuff to go with, this game is simply a space gambling simulator with some bread crumb elements added in. The rub is that current F2P zeitgeist essentially dictates that this setup has to happen in order to maintain profitability. Games with heavy engagement motifs and design in a AAA graphical setting are not cheap to make anymore. Not even kinda. I'd love to see the kind of things you're talking about but the other side is DE can't simply shift gears in mid-production. There's a definite pipeline in place, and turning that pipeline into another kind of content production machine would take some serious work, and therefore serious money and time. Perhaps time will tell, but I don't think when this game is done it's going to be a F2P version of the entire Mass Effect trilogy in one free game. There's some serious design and cost concerns for any company traveling that kind of road, and making that kind of content also limits your audience, for better or worse, to a certain set of fans. By keeping things wide and shallow, you can appeal to a greater number of people, and by implementing a skinner box economic and reward system, you can keep them engaged for far longer than would normally be the case with this kind of content. It's simply a proven economic thing. Edited July 3, 2013 by -Kittens- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsomniacOvrLrd Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 I'm close to bailing as well. I've got nothing left to do in this game. Maxed and forma'd like 6 frames, maxed the boar, braton,boltor, dread, latron prime, viper, twin vipers, bolto, akbolto, lato, aklato, lex, gorgon, and a billion melee weapons. All on the same few missions. I've dumped a decent amount of money into this game, and more crap gets pumped out into the store, and things go unfixed. I'm not out yet, but i'm really discouraged at this point. Here's hoping update nine gets me interesed again, otherwise it's just 225 hours wasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodgimp Posted July 3, 2013 Author Share Posted July 3, 2013 Here's hoping update nine gets me interesed again, otherwise it's just 225 hours wasted. It's only wasted time if you didn't have fun along the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentdrumr Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 +1 to this thread. I'm not shelving it, but I probably won't play it as much as I used to. I'll still be on the forums too. Hopefully there will be more incentive to play soon. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZWarhammer Posted July 3, 2013 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ "hint" ( quote me with a smiley face putting the table back in it's place :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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