On Power Creep

[Trichouette]

Just now, TheChaotic1 said:

If there is a mechanic, there will be a mod to alter it, that's just how warframe is

I still don't see any mods for charged attack... (unless the one for the basolk)

2 minutes ago, TheChaotic1 said:

And lets say the cooldown mod starts at 30% at max, because thats how they usually are, eventually there will be a 55% version of the primed form. Add in a corrupt mod of some sort, lets say 'Hastened Fury' 45% cooldown reduction, -30% duration

I said "balanced" not completely broken.

1 minute ago, aligatorno said:

That may be, but Warframe is still in beta, still in constant developing and changing. 

Unless that there is no notiong of warframe being in beta anymore anywhere, not even on steam. They removed the "early access" (or beta or whatever) tag long ago without even saying "hey we're out of beta", so we could be in beta, or not. Nobody knows for sure and I never saw a dev answer that question...

And beta doesn't mean they have to let every old feature die (like your sentinel in mission, it dies, and never come back)

[aligatorno]

2 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

I still don't see any mods for charged attack... (unless the one for the basolk)

I said "balanced" not completely broken.

Unless that there is no notiong of warframe being in beta anymore anywhere, not even on steam. They removed the "early access" (or beta or whatever) tag long ago without even saying "hey we're out of beta", so we could be in beta, or not. Nobody knows for sure and I never saw a dev answer that question...

And beta doesn't mean they have to let every old feature die (like your sentinel in mission, it dies, and never come back)

They mentioned multiple times on recent devstreams that the game is still in beta. 

As for the cooldowns. I wasn't around back then, but the game used to have them. From what I read, the playerbase was not happy at all with them, the response severe enough to make DE strip it appart from the game. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by aligatorno

[TheChaotic1]

1 minute ago, Trichouette said:

I said "balanced" not completely broken.

My point is, balanced mods add up. There will be options for exploitation

 

2 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

still don't see any mods for charged attack...

Stance mods.

[Trichouette]

Just now, TheChaotic1 said:

My point is, balanced mods add up. There will be options for exploitation

Do you see primed streamline ? According to "certain people" it's in the gamefiles, but not in game, and you know why ? my theory is that DE still has a veeeeeery tiny notion of what "unbalanced mean", not a lot, but just enough to not release it, at least yet.

And there is a hard cap to efficiency, there can be a hardcap for CDR as well.

1 minute ago, TheChaotic1 said:

Stance mods.

Not really, that doesn't enhance the charged attack, even though I have a sh*tload of ideas for amazing charged mods....

 

[TheChaotic1]

1 minute ago, Trichouette said:

Not really, that doesn't enhance the charged attack, even though I have a sh*tload of ideas for amazing charged mods....

Yeah they do, like, do you not use your combos or what?

 

I've said I have to say on the cooldown, I'm neither for or against it, but I know it wont be immune to cheese.

Edited January 2, 2017 by TheChaotic1

[Trichouette]

Just now, TheChaotic1 said:

Yeah they do, like, do you not use your combos or what?

A charged attack is "hold E" there is no combo with that...

[ChuckMaverick]

On 31/12/2016 at 10:04 PM, John89brensen said:

I think the main problem with power creep is how DE keeps releasing weapons more and more powerful that make previous builds irrelevant

Soma Prime says hi.

1 hour ago, aligatorno said:

They mentioned multiple times on recent devstreams that the game is still in beta.

Oh please, if Warframe is still in beta then that word has truly lost all meaning.

MMOs are always changing, that has nothing to do with being in beta or not.

[Goodwill]

4 hours ago, Trichouette said:

problems like ?

unless players' anger because they can't cheese the missions like they used to, and the fact all frame would require to be worked on to implement the feature, I don't see any problem.

And the only other fix possible is "nerf nerf nerf everywhere" or "greatly reduce the ways we get energy", which is worse than cooldowns.

Firstly, they'll need to rework items like energy pads and abilities that affect energy like Trinity's Energy Vampire. They'd also have to rework a whole school of focus which players use mostly because of the energy regen. They'll also need to rework Warframe mod balance and compensate players who put time into maxing energy based mods. It's way too much work for little very little, to no pay off.

With the current energy system, all they need to do for starters is chill on the ways players can restore energy. Firstly, energy pads could have a cap limit per mission. That's already half of the cheese solved. No need for cooldowns. Hell, we can compromise and say that energy pads can have a cooldown. We keep our energy system, you get your cooldown. It will also fall in line with air support charges. You'll be surprised how much energy pads are used to give an overwhelming advantage in energy management. Outside of that, you would need to take a Trinity.

I would much rather see DE start with small steps, namely with capping energy pads and get feedback from that first.
 

[xXx1337n00bxXx]

I can do millions of damage on endless survivals without any energy or use of any guns, with any warframe. So just because energy regen is the flavor of the week doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed. 

[Grebnennar]

Bottom line your always going to have low lv enemies wipe easily if your geared for high lv regardless of if a cool down exists. Because even if you nerf the warframes powers your still going to 1 shot things with the weapons. So your talking about a complete damage over haul and for what purpose? It sounds like trying to gear the powers for low end content with out thinking about how its going to effect the rest of the game. With out powers warframe is a 3rd person shooter with no cover system.

This is also implying that frames can't decimate enemies with out powers which is far from true. There are plenty of ways to do extreme amounts of damage with using absolutely no energy and have just as high survivability as using CC powers.

 

 

[Trichouette]

6 hours ago, Goodwill said:

Firstly, they'll need to rework items like energy pads and abilities that affect energy like Trinity's Energy Vampire.
 

Energy pad > no, they're part of the cheesing problem and if they disappeared the game would be only better

Trinity > that's pretty easy, I even thought of something I would find great.(but my opinion is most often garbage to players since they just want an ez-pz game where one key is enough to play) Just change her kit order (make 3>2  4>3 and the new 2 become 4) and change her energy vampire to a "refresh all of trinity & allies' abilities cooldown", (with the exception of trinity's & allied trinity's 4). This way she can, in dire situation, grant her team back their cooldown. And obviously put a good cooldown on such ability (like 45sec for example)

6 hours ago, Goodwill said:

They'd also have to rework a whole school of focus

Is that a bad thing ? The focus system is beta and absolutely crap right now, people either play zenurik for energy//naramon for stupidly OP invisibility / vazarin to revive & get revived instant.

It'll have to be finished & reworked someday, so this argument isn't really valid.

6 hours ago, Goodwill said:

They'll also need to rework Warframe mod balance and compensate players who put time into maxing energy based mods.

Well most frames are already in need of a rework and the mod system aswell... So how is this a problem again ?

6 hours ago, Goodwill said:

It's way too much work for little very little, to no pay off.

No pay off ? Balance and more difficulty in a cheesy game is "no pay off" to you ?

And trinity's issue still has to be addressed, I don't even understand why they gave her that stupidly OP ability in the first place.

And thanks to all this mess we're now stuck with these stupid nullifiers.

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Trichouette

[Goodwill]

3 hours ago, Trichouette said:

-

 

Small steps first. Limit energy pads (via CD or cap inventory limit) and rework Trinity's Energy Vampire. We'll see how that goes, and the feedback from that will tell us whether we are getting hot or cold. It's a small patch that can potentially be huge progress. Then after that, we can discuss what the next move should be.
 

[Trichouette]

10 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

Small steps first. Limit energy pads (via CD or cap inventory limit) and rework Trinity's Energy Vampire. We'll see how that goes, and the feedback from that will tell us whether we are getting hot or cold. It's a small patch that can potentially be huge progress. Then after that, we can discuss what the next move should be.
 

Sadly that'll only make people rely even more on zenurik and efficiency.

But I agree that could be another way to make things move.

[Goodwill]

1 hour ago, Trichouette said:

Sadly that'll only make people rely even more on zenurik and efficiency.

But I agree that could be another way to make things move.

I won't lie, if DE were to go CD in the next year, I wouldn't bat an eye. I do think doing it any earlier is just jumping the gun really. Also true, forgot to address Zenurik. Although I don't think they are as big as a problem as energy pads and Trinity comparatively. But definitely something to look at.

[Trichouette]

5 minutes ago, Goodwill said:

I won't lie, if DE were to go CD in the next year, I wouldn't bat an eye. I do think doing it any earlier is just jumping the gun really. Also true, forgot to address Zenurik. Although I don't think they are as big as a problem as energy pads and Trinity comparatively. But definitely something to look at.

Something that would be a mix of CD & energy would be to remove pads, energy orbs and energy vampire and simply give warframes a huge energy regeneration. This way they can use their abilities without cooldown but they have to be careful about that energy limit.

So they can spam more one ability and less another.

I prefer cooldown though, that gives the players the opportunity to use some abilities that they wouldn't waste energy on usually. Like using ember's fireball that nobody usually use simply because it's currently a waste of energy. With cooldowns, it's a waste of a short cooldown... that doesn't impact other abilities

Edited January 2, 2017 by Trichouette

[Unholyrequiem]

I am the kind of person in favour of cooldowns as to me they add a more strategic element to gameplay as currently energy is the only real gate on a Warframe's abilities which can easily be removed. Having to think about when you use an ability rewards the player for quick decisions especially in fast paced environments. 

 

However I  think cool down's at this point are simply not feasible to achieve especially with how the game specifically revolves around fast paced gameplay rather than long drawn out missions. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Unholyrequiem

[BlackCoMerc]

On 12/31/2016 at 5:26 PM, John89brensen said:

Exactly!! Cooldown is the most basic balancing mechanic, its the best way to avoid power spamming, and yet DE refuses to implement it.

It's also the least tactical, least player influenced, most agency robbing method. Not to mention, it works in those awful, tabbed targeting systems, in which combat consists of staring at your ability bar and pressing number buttons

This is an action game. You need to watch the action, not the cool down counters.

The energy economy needs fixed. Period. Fleeting, EV and pizzas are MAJOR issues, and Siphon and the one focus school too.

[John89brensen]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

It's also the least tactical, least player influenced, most agency robbing method.

What?! Cooldown is a staple balancing mechanic of the action genre, and its a hell of a lot more tactical than having world on fire/maim/exalted blade, turned on for 40 minutes before deciding to turn it off. And if you remember, there was a time in Warframe when careful use of powers was mandartory to survive beyond certain point, spamming your 4th meant you would run out of energy and you would be unable to cast when most needed. 

[TheChaotic1]

On 1/1/2017 at 8:01 PM, Trichouette said:

A charged attack is "hold E" there is no combo with that...

There are tons of combos that use charged attacks. But since you are being retentive. Attack speed makes it charge faster, damage mods make it do more damage, reach makes it hit further, to say mods dont do anything to charged attacks is nonsense.

[Trichouette]

2 hours ago, TheChaotic1 said:

There are tons of combos that use charged attacks. But since you are being retentive. Attack speed makes it charge faster, damage mods make it do more damage, reach makes it hit further, to say mods dont do anything to charged attacks is nonsense.

Combos that have "hold E at a certain point" is NOT a charged attack.

Charged attack is when you simply hold E, it charges, and it deals 3 times more damage.

The damage mods increase the damage when using a charged attack, but there is no mod that DIRECTLY impact that mechanic (like increase the multiplier and charging speed for example)

[TheChaotic1]

7 hours ago, Trichouette said:

Combos that have "hold E at a certain point" is NOT a charged attack.

Charged attack is when you simply hold E, it charges, and it deals 3 times more damage.

The damage mods increase the damage when using a charged attack, but there is no mod that DIRECTLY impact that mechanic (like increase the multiplier and charging speed for example)

Mental Gymnastics. I'm done here.