Kuva Siphon feedback. Hopefully constructive.

[deothor]

INB4 "Kuva so ez". "Just use X/Y/Z". "I like Kuva missions, they are fine". "Git gut pls". "don't like it, don't play it"

Here's my reply to those comments: We all like different things. I play Warframe because "space ninjas". Not "frog simulator on highway in rush hours".

And I'd really avoid Kuva, if DE wouldn't gate some content behind Kuva gathering. Now I'm in miserable spot where I want to get Kuva, But I get stomach ache even thinking of this GIMMICK mode.

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Today I had my very first Kuva mission. I've read lots of posts about how people farmed hundreds on thousands of Kuva points, so I though "it can't be THAT bad"

Took easy mission, Ceres Exta (double boss). 2 random players have joined. We all had exactly the same amount of experience with Kuva Siphons (0).

 

I'll just write this in points:

1. Kuva Siphon isn't on your way on doing main mission. You have to find it. Similar to Simaris targets.

2. Kuva mission starts as soon as you are close to it. Even if you aren't in the same room. By the time my friends got there, Kuva ate 2 clouds.

3. Kuva Siphon spawned for us in most cramped and small room possible. We couldn't even make a full operator jump. Needles to say once guardians showed it gone from not good to beyond bad.

4. Kuva clouds are dark. Just like rest of the Grineer fortress theme. Difficult to spot.

5. Kuva clouds are fast. Like seriously, Volt with Rush mod and his GottaGoFast ability. Ok not THAT fast, but fast enough so player doesn;t have time to react.

6. I mentioned Cramped room? Well those clouds were spawning almost right at Kuva Siphon. See cloud? Cloud is already eaten by Kuva.

7. This one is funny: My operator either glitched or ran out of energy PERMANENTLY. waiting, resetting operator and waiting. Nothing worked.

8. The 2 times it worked at the start however both operator ignored my commands of CTRL + SPACE. He first squatted, then jumped up.

9. My teammates obviously had similar luck.

10. This cute "now you know it all" text "explaining" what you need to do. Doesn't help at all. Sadly. But that's a problem ripped right from TWW missions with those bone crushers

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Overall this Kuva Siphon GIMMICK doesn't connect to the game at all. Makes no sense. Yeah there were some mentions in TWW, but... Tbh story of TWW is already stretched to the point of facepalming.

 

Needless to say I'm not only annoyed, but salty. Because I know DE WILL promote Kuva even harder. Which means lots of stuff will be gated behind this type of missions.

As they say, it's first impressions are the most important. Well..

 

Now I'll try my luck with how to make those Kuva Siphon missions bearable

* Remove GIMMICK clouds and let us simply gun this thing into thousands of pieces. Or even better, Lets us shoot Kuva Siphon, while clouds "repair" it, and we have an option to destroy clouds.

OR

* Let clouds be destroyed by simple pulse waves from our "TWW operator" (the ones that stun mobs or something)

* Too many GIMMICK immortal guardians (ok maybe not immortal, but annoyingly gimmicky). Too many mobs. Either remove guardians or remove mobs. Please.

* Let siphons spawn only in WIDE AREAS!!! NOWHERE ELSE!

* If DE wants to keep that GIMMICK Kuva clouds, fine but then let our operators have INFINITE energy.

* Obviously we need Kuva Tutorial. Preferably with mushroom-head Tensei NPC as guide.

* Maybe fix operator to actually do the jumps..?

* If all will stay the way it is.. At least let us have infinite time to destroy Kuva. Because there's no point of it suddenly dissapearing.

* slow down those clouds. To snails pace.

Heavier, game changing, idea:

* What if Kuva clouds could spawn in any mission, just like Simaris targets. They'd be mobile and we'd have to collect them using Some "Kuva cups" from our gear menu. Ofcourse to make this a lil bit more spicy Kuva clouds are mobile and we have to capture them by running with our cups in hand and just like "interception mission" capture them. And ofcourse Mobs would try to get in our way! Exactly like we do in MR 23! 

Second, less ideal, idea:

Kuva as reward from other missions. Kuva cashes in Kuva fortress. They have to store it somewhere anyways, right?

Kuva mobile defense + normal defense where we protect Siphon while it collects Kuva for us

Kuva excavation.. Do I need to explain?

Mobs empowered/drugged by Kuva. Kill them for some few Kuva drops

Kuva as resource obtainable from Syndicates

Syndicate Kuva missions that reward you Kuva, obviously

Assassinate mission "destroy Kuva Siphon". With guns. And bullets. Not by jumping with my operator.

[Extroah]

Yeah they sometimes spawn in smaller Rooms, but there are enough failsafes to ensure that you can at least get 4 Clouds nontheless. I think the Siphon can suck in like what, 10 Clouds before it gets destroyed? Plenty of chances.

Regarding the Operator gameplay : yeah. Sometimes won't work for me either, like the Operator just doesn't want to jump and just ducks down.

Guardians just need 1 jump and couple slashes/shots.. no Problem imho.

Making the Siphon "shootable" would just encourage Cheese. Cheese is bad and..yeah..just not good.

[Unholyrequiem]

I've seen Kuva clouds get stuck on crates. 

[(XBOX)Agent Hodor]

1. Kuva Siphon isn't on your way on doing main mission. You have to find it. Similar to Simaris targets.

Agree to disagree on this one, every single kuva mission I have run, the siphon is on the way to the final objective. Granted sometimes it may spawn in a room the is a slight offshoot of your final goal, but the minimap marker shows up to easily guide you.

2. Kuva mission starts as soon as you are close to it. Even if you aren't in the same room. By the time my friends got there, Kuva ate 2 clouds.

The mission doesn't start before the marker shows on your minimap, giving you time to slow down and wait for teammates if you are all spread out. Also if you do decide to charge headlong into the room, losing a couple early clouds isn't the end of the world. You have 8 tries before the siphon event fails you.

3. Kuva Siphon spawned for us in most cramped and small room possible. We couldn't even make a full operator jump. Needles to say once guardians showed it gone from not good to beyond bad.

RNG is RNG, sometimes you get a smaller room and the event becomes that much more frantic, sometimes you get a wide open expanse and you see the kuva clouds a mile off.

4. Kuva clouds are dark. Just like rest of the Grineer fortress theme. Difficult to spot.

Kuva missions don't currently spawn in the Kuva Fortress tileset, only on the surrounding planets.  Don't know what to tell you here except maybe mess with a few color correction options if they are that troublesome for you to see.

5. Kuva clouds are fast. Like seriously, Volt with Rush mod and his GottaGoFast ability. Ok not THAT fast, but fast enough so player doesn;t have time to react.

Kuva clouds are not that fast, the only real time it is hard is if the cloud spawns close to the siphon due to tile constraints. Watch the suction hoses on the kuva siphon, the active one will lift and point in the direction of the incoming cloud, there is also an audio cue when a cloud spawns.

6. I mentioned Cramped room? Well those clouds were spawning almost right at Kuva Siphon. See cloud? Cloud is already eaten by Kuva.

Again, sometimes RNG is a pain, but the good news is you have another 7 tries to get it right.

7. This one is funny: My operator either glitched or ran out of energy PERMANENTLY. waiting, resetting operator and waiting. Nothing worked.

I will agree with this point, the operator controls do seem to be a bit janky at times, DE could definately do a polish pass on those.

8. The 2 times it worked at the start however both operator ignored my commands of CTRL + SPACE. He first squatted, then jumped up.

See comment for item 7.

9. My teammates obviously had similar luck.

You were all in the same mission, so yep, I believe you when you say that your teammates faced similar issues due to kuva siphon placement. Unfortunate that all 3 of you were new or unaccustomed to the mission type but the more you play it, the better you will get.

10. This cute "now you know it all" text "explaining" what you need to do. Doesn't help at all. Sadly. But that's a problem ripped right from TWW missions with those bone crushers

Dealing with kuva guardians is explained and required to complete TWW, which is a prereq to farming kuva.

Now to your other comments. I heavily disagree with just turning kuva farming into another shoot it till it dies event.  We already have enough of that in the game.  I like that DE made a new way to interact with game situations. Could it use polish, of course but lets not scrap the entire mode out of hand because you have a bad experience with it the first time out. The current interaction to capture the cloud is fine. Dashing, while buggy at times is just fine the way it is in regards to capturing the cloud. The amount of enemies spawned is also fine, spawn rates scale with the number of players in the game. Try running a solo kuva mission, you will never see more then 2 kuva guardians after you at a time. This mission type requires a little bit of thought in regards to team comp, you will want CC, plain and simple. Unless you have a cheese tier weapon to constantly clear the adds as they spawn, invest in CC.

As for your infinite operator energy comment, again I disagree due to the fact if you had infinite energy you could simply sit invisible as you operator indefinitely waiting to dash at clouds and kuva guardians. The energy cap is fine, though a visual representation would be nice for current operator energy levels.

Moving the siphons to only open areas would be nice, but would also lock locations to only a few possible tilesets on each planet. I like the variability of not knowing exactly where the siphon will be.

Kuva tutorial, sure I'll sign the petition for that. Put an entry in the codex explaining the mechanics that will only show after the account has completed The War Within mission.

Edited January 18, 2017 by (XB1)Agent Hodor
spelling and formating

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

You had zero experience with Kuva, you got in a party with other people that had zero experience with Kuva, you did zero research on how to farm Kuva, you failed, you complained. Please understand the problem with this timeline when people tell you L2P. Not trying to be a douch-e, but it sounds like you want a game where you don't have to do anything in order to win. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by (PS4)Regiampiero

[Unholyrequiem]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

You had zero experience with Kuva, you got in a party with other people that had zero experience with Kuva, you did zero research on how to farm Kuva, you failed, you complained. Please understand the problem with this timeline when people tell you L2P. Not trying to be a douch-e, but it sounds like you want a game where you don't have to do anything in order to win. 

That just highlights another problem with Kuva siphons in that the orders Lotus give are purely misinformation and gamble on the player either already knowing what to do or figuring out through trial and error. Lotus tells you time and time again "Kill the Queen's braids" which I thought were actually the soldiers guarding her. Furthermore there is very little to imply dash through dark gas cloud to destroy the siphon.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

6 minutes ago, Unholyrequiem said:

That just highlights another problem with Kuva siphons in that the orders Lotus give are purely misinformation and gamble on the player either already knowing what to do or figuring out through trial and error. Lotus tells you time and time again "Kill the Queen's braids" which I thought were actually the soldiers guarding her. Furthermore there is very little to imply dash through dark gas cloud to destroy the siphon.

Yes, but everything in the game is not straight forward. Literally everything you need to do you have to go to the wiki to find out what to do, so why would you assume it be different with Kuva?

Not saying its a good thing, I've remember when I didn't even know how to rank up when I first started or how to read stats. I quickly figured out that the only way to learn to play this game is through external references and youtube, so much so that when you first log in they might as well put a link to the wiki. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by (PS4)Regiampiero

[deothor]

You guys can say whatever you want.

You can scream "how amazing or different Kuva is" but for me, this is a gimmick mode made that had to be made to make TWW gimmick part look less stupid.

 

And instead saying "hmm it could be worked on, here is bunch of my ideas, champ" you go with "KUVA IS PERFECT HURR DURR, YOU BAD HURR DURR, RNG, L2P HURR".

 

So yeah. Thanks for fun conversation.

[Unholyrequiem]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Regiampiero said:

Yes, but everything in the game is not straight forward. Literally everything you need to do you have to go to the wiki to find out what to do, so why would you assume it be different with Kuva?

Not saying its a good thing, I've remember when I didn't even know how to rank up when I first started or how to read stats. I quickly figured out that the only way to learn to play this game is through external references and youtube, so much so that when you first log in they might as well put a link to wiki. 

Lack of beginner friendliness is the game's most criticized point. 

[(XBOX)Agent Hodor]

5 minutes ago, deothor said:

You guys can say whatever you want.

You can scream "how amazing or different Kuva is" but for me, this is a gimmick mode made that had to be made to make TWW gimmick part look less stupid.

 

And instead saying "hmm it could be worked on, here is bunch of my ideas, champ" you go with "KUVA IS PERFECT HURR DURR, YOU BAD HURR DURR, RNG, L2P HURR".

 

So yeah. Thanks for fun conversation.

Hard to have a conversation with someone who doesn't want to hear any point of view that isn't theirs.  You believe kuva is a gimmick, fine you are entitled to your opinion.  I however enjoy the change from the tedium that is repeated ad naseum of shoot it till it doesn't move anymore.  Furthermore, I do agree that operator controls need a polish pass, they do seem to become unresponsive at times. However I don't agree with your idea of how to "fix" kuva farming, sorry for having a different opinion.

[(PSN)Regiampiero]

23 minutes ago, deothor said:

You guys can say whatever you want.

You can scream "how amazing or different Kuva is" but for me, this is a gimmick mode made that had to be made to make TWW gimmick part look less stupid.

 

And instead saying "hmm it could be worked on, here is bunch of my ideas, champ" you go with "KUVA IS PERFECT HURR DURR, YOU BAD HURR DURR, RNG, L2P HURR".

 

So yeah. Thanks for fun conversation.

So lets all say the game is stupid and gimmicky instead, I'm sure that's a better time investment. Also, no one has yet said Kuva farming is amazing or perfect other than you. I'm just saying that your complaining on something you've put no effort in learning to do is meaningless, and therefore there's no helping you. If you would have asked for advice on doing kuva runs we could have had a different discussion, but instead you decided to bash a game mode you've yet to understand. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by (PS4)Regiampiero

[deothor]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)Agent Hodor said:

Hard to have a conversation with someone who doesn't want to hear any point of view that isn't theirs.

How dare you.

I did read every of your amazing opinions. One was making fun of me, other was "rng this rng that".. oh that was yours. Right after you comes a guy that indirectly says l2p scrub.

 

If a mode is so heavily reliant on lucky RNG, then this mode is worthless, truly

If a mode gives you explanation on how to do it, then it shouldn't expect us to do something difficult at the get go.

If a mode has glitched/buggy aspects (operator), then hell.. How am I supposed to give it a good rating?

"Oh yes, please do Kuva it's super fun mission! Only 7 in 10 tries you'll end up in bad situation where you either get overrun by mobs, Kuva siphon spawns in broom locket, you won't see clouds, or your operator glicthes, but overall its quite good!!!"

 

Second thing, why do I say "fix Kuva siphon". Because.. well, to be honest.. De never did something good at their first try. And.. That'd break their "3rd time is a charm" record. I simply do not trust that THIS thing is their best. I expect more. Not because I'm greedy, but because I know DE can do better.

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If I did this thread 2-4 weeks ago, when Kuva was still a new thing, I'd get lots of supporters. But I didn't. I didn;t feel like rushing trough like everyone else. And because of that I have to deal with hyenas preying on threads such as this one.

[(XBOX)Agent Hodor]

I never made fun of your experience, it is unfortunate that you had a rough start and your teammates were not more helpful or experienced, but I never mocked you over it. This game is heavily dependent on RNG for farming, that is unlikely to change.  You can go ahead and take offense that I stated there is RNG involved in kuva farming. There is also a large amount of RNG in relic farming and prime farming so we should scrap those modes too by your logic.  Learning to overcome unfavorable circumstances is part of the challenge and fun in warframe for me.

Kuva farming itself is not difficult, but failing to prepare for it will lead to failure.  If you didn't want to look in to preping for it, you can hardly be angry at failing out of the gate. You now know what to expect and if you go back and try it again, I am betting your experience will be much better.

Operator controls can be frustrating, I agree with you. But overall they function well enough to complete the event.  You don't want to give kuva farming a perfect 10/10, I don't blame you. It needs a polish pass on operator controls to make it easier to to perform the moves you want on command to accomplish the goal to get that 10/10 rating.

[Tyrian3k]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Agent Hodor said:

Agree to disagree on this one, every single kuva mission I have run, the siphon is on the way to the final objective. Granted sometimes it may spawn in a room the is a slight offshoot of your final goal, but the minimap marker shows up to easily guide you.

The siphon doesn't always spawn on the path to the objective/exit on the Grineer Shipyard tileset. There's several rooms that are dead ends that it can spawn in. Combined with the large tiles that this tileset has, you will very often pass the siphon without noticing, unless you check every side door.

But I do wonder why you want to disagree here. He was stating a fact, not an opinion.

[(XBOX)Agent Hodor]

Just now, Tyrian3k said:

The siphon doesn't always spawn on the path to the objective/exit on the Grineer Shipyard tileset. There's several rooms that are dead ends that it can spawn in. Combined with the large tiles that this tileset has, you will very often pass the siphon without noticing, unless you check every side door.

But I do wonder why you want to disagree here. He was stating a fact, not an opinion.

I understood his comment to be that the siphon is unfindable in the course of running the mission normally, which is not the case. The minimap will always show the direction to the kuva siphon once you are close enough to the spawn. Granted I am on console, so there may be a coding snafu that PC has that has changed this.  However barring the relatively rare glitch of the siphon completely not spawning in the mission, the minimap will indicate where to go. That is why I stated what I did.

[Tyrian3k]

Just now, (Xbox One)Agent Hodor said:

once you are close enough to the spawn.

And if this does not happen? What then? Just asking, because you can very easily not get close enough to the siphon while doing your mission when playing on the Grineer Shipyard tileset, which is exactly what happened to the OP.

Again, you're disagreeing with a fact here, not an opinion.

[(XBOX)Agent Hodor]

Personally haven't seen that issue in the 20+ kuva siphon missions I have run.  Currently on console the siphon objective marker seems to show up on your minimap as soon as you are within 3 room connections.  If the grineer shipyard tileset has paths that go further then 3 room connections from the main path in the course of completing the map objective then I concede finding the siphon would be difficult.

[Tyrian3k]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Agent Hodor said:

Personally haven't seen that issue in the 20+ kuva siphon missions I have run.  Currently on console the siphon objective marker seems to show up on your minimap as soon as you are within 3 room connections.  If the grineer shipyard tileset has paths that go further then 3 room connections from the main path in the course of completing the map objective then I concede finding the siphon would be difficult.

It's only an issue on that single tileset as far as I can tell from my numerous runs. All other tilesets seem to spawn in right on the path.