This Game Is Too Ez

[Ghobe]

Aidith....shut up. Stop going off about the terms people are using, we know what they mean.

 

People are also not looking for something to be made so well difficulty wise, that it straight up outplays an organized group of players at their best. There are things such things as skill levels, there's also a difference between actual skill and potential skill. I'd not call a damned thing in WoW "hard", but it also defeats roughly 98.3% of the raiding community(which is still roughly 15-25% of the community, the portion that is capable of raiding and downing the first boss).

 

People are looking to be challenged. Some are subconsciously seeking a way to be able to show off and prove that they're better than x% of the community. These things don't exist for most unless they apply a MAJOR handicap to themselves.

 

The way you're talking, you're saying difficulty shouldn't even be bothered with...which if that were true, gaming would have died off a long time ago.

[stacey69]

I'm really tired of joining defenses and seeing 2 out of 4 people with rocket launchers, 1 shotting everything. This defeats the purpose of using abilities, melee, or any other aspect of the game. Stand on high ground, spam rockets....

Nerf the rocket launcher, or increase the AI difficulty.

Stay tuned for the worst gameplay of the rocket launcher ever, and watch what is happening to this game.. Rendering now, and will be uploaded in the next hour.

Hi mate. One issue is we cant pick which wave to start on. If you have been wave 25 on a map you should be able to auto select it. This would group people like me and you and others like us who only want end game material and a challenge rather than seeing a screen full of numbers. DE are inexperienced at this. You have to remember this. They do not know who to cater for.

 

Build it and they will come

 

My advice to DE

 

Make the game for good players and more will join. The S#&$ will leave and go play Wow or counterstrike. Leaving us with a game you will be proud to play. Remember that once this game becomes nothing but drivel your own developers will not want to play it. Just give us options. If you aint been 1 to 25 before then you don't get to do it. This will encourage clan play to get things unlocked so people can pug more.

 

You, Steve and Rebecca remember the night BBS did that defense challenge. We all 150 of us chatted and enjoyed the game. Some people want this. Give it to us. Saved at wave x x

 

This is not game breaking and I'm sure Scott /hugz will enjoy it hehe

[whitejackale]

Like I said yesterday, there is never going to be a time(at least with current technology) where the AI is going to be able to beat a team of co-ordinated individuals. There will never be a time where you can't say it's too easy because, without cheating(i'm looking at you insta-kill head shots from all the way across the map using iron sights in COD) the AI is, at the end of the day, extremely limited in capability. No computer is smart, the person that coded whatever program you are running is the smart one. A computer can only 'think' in two very rigid ways, off and on, all the rest is done by a person, and no person or team of people can come up with every possible scenario that a player might try. Thus, the feeling of 'stupid AI'. Until a computer can 'think' somewhere between off and on, the so called 'grey area' and get up to speed with a humans biological brain speed and start to learn on there own, 'stupid AI' will always exist. 

 

Here's a little tidbit after a quick google search:

"To put our findings in perspective, the 6.4*10^18 instructions per second that human kind can carry out on its general-purpose computers in 2007 are in the same ballpark area as the maximum number of nerve impulses executed by one human brain per second."

That's 64,000,000,000,000,000,000 Hz or 64,000,000,000 GHz .

So,even if you could program the 'grey area' and introduce a program that could learn on it's own, you would have to have a CPU that could perform that workload plus all the other various functions of your OS/Gaming/Etc.

The Intel i7-930 with all 4 cores going at maximum is around 11.733 GHz(adding all the cores 'turbo' speeds together, it's actual rated turbo speed is 3.066 GHz). So, it would take around 5,454,700,417.625 i7-930's (using the 11.733 GHz number), which retail,per chip, at around $330 US, putting cost for just the processing power at around $1,800,051,137,816.42 US. I suppose you could get a bulk discount, but I don't think very many of us have around $1 trillion US burning a hole in our pocket, not to mention all the ram,mb's,heat sinks,hd's,power supplies,a facility to house them in,the power required to run all of that,the knowledge of how to 'network' all those CPU's together (not even going into diminishing returns per cpu here), etc,etc.

I could go on, but I think this wall of text is enough.

And your whole argument is made invalid by the fact that Garry Kasparov was defeated in 1997 by Deep Blue, a chess playing computer.

 

The developers do not need to "come up with every possible scenario that a player might try." They just need to program the AI so that it does not do things such as taking cover while leaving its face out in the open to give players easy kills.

 

I have played many games in the past in which enemies can be difficult to defeat because their actions, damage, survivability, and crowd control are properly balanced in order to give players a challenge. You said it yourself. The AI is not smart, the people who program it are the ones that are smart. While the AI might be limited in what it can do, the constraints that the developers can place into the game can create a challenging experience for players. This constraints are of course proper balancing of both combat mechanics and the AI.

[eltronix]

They will be implementing nightmare mode soon hopefully that will make the game more difficult for you :)

[Ghobe]

And your whole argument is made invalid by the fact that Garry Kasparov was defeated in 1997 by Deep Blue, a chess playing computer.

Keep in mind Deep Blue was also having his coding rewritten as the match went on.

[whitejackale]

They will be implementing nightmare mode soon hopefully that will make the game more difficult for you :)

That is a step in the right direction. I would like to see them making the game more like an rpg. What I mean by this is that they should introduce interesting mechanics that increase the difficulty of the game. Examples of this mechanics would be creating missions in which you need to have warframes with healing capabilities, warframes with tanking capabilities, and warframes with certain damage capabilities. 

[whitejackale]

Keep in mind Deep Blue was also having his coding rewritten as the match went on.

But the same can be said about warframe and any other video game that is constantly being patched. 

[azmyth1]

1. Use statistics to determine what is tough.  Do a random sample of players and see which missions they fail and which ones they succeed on.

 

Which faction has the highest kill rate of players.  Perhaps nerf the highest, boost the lowest and leave the middle one unchanged.  I have a 99%+ pass rate for hacking consoles, so perhaps lower the timer a bit until people start to fail maybe 5-10% of their hack attempts.

 

2. Multiplayer difficulty scaling.  I don't seem to notice any increase in difficulty for multiple players.  So there seem to be just as many/hard opponents while soloing as their are with 4 players in your party.  Perhaps I am mistaken.

 

I think Torchlight II does a good job of this, and what they do is scale the player's damage back the more players there are.  You don't want to scale all player stats because then you wind up over-nerfing big parties, but lowering damage simply puts the players and enemies back on equal footing for DPS.  Furthermore, it doesn't hurt lag.  If you just added a ton more enemies, you'd run into lag issues with large parties.

3. Bosses underpowered/not all that fun in large groups.  Somewhat related to #2, bosses can get kind of silly to fight in large groups especially with a couple CC frames like Vauban and Frost.  A couple players run up and stun lock the boss and the rest just pound the crap out of the poor guy.  I realize that while farming for warframe parts, players are bound to get really good at fighting a particular boss, but unless you are soloing, bosses seem a bit underpowered.

 

Bosses should be overall more resistant to CC.  Hordes of lesser enemies should continually spawn during the fight to pull some of the players away from pounding on the boss and force them to keep the lesser enemies under control.  Increasing the mobility of bosses by adding teleporting or flying might allow them to escape stun locks and keep the fight more fluid and entertaining.  It's not about increasing stats per se.  It's more about keeping players on their toes during the fight and preventing it from being a simple slug fest at point blank range.

 

4. Better "elite" enemies for Infested and Corpus.  Greneer are actually pretty darn good in this regard.  Bombadiers/Napalm/Heavy gunners/Seekers/Scorpions are all quite difficult to deal with and represent a variety of threats to the Tenno.  Corpus needs a more elite close range unit, perhaps related to the Jackel/Hyena bosses but in a smaller/nerfed version for random encounters.  Let's be honest, the hapless Prod Crewemen don't really cut the mustard against a Warframe with a Scindo.

 

However, the Corpus are still better off than the poor Infested at high levels.  The Disrupter Ancients still send a panicked feeling through even the most battle hardened Tenno, but that's pretty much the only big time threat.  Run at the Warframes and then stun them pretty much sums up the Chargers, Runners, Leapers and even the Toxic and Healer Ancients.

 

The Infested need a counter to the rush.  When you're playing against the other two factions, if you rush too much you can quickly find yourself overwhemed by massed ememies shooting the crap out of you.  In Infested missions, you only really run into trouble when you slow down.

 

Some ideas:

A winged creature that shoots a tacky goo which slows the player like the Orokin Void floor traps.

An enemy which shoots poisoned spikes similar to the Acrid.  It could be slow moving, but set them up in ambushes and force the player to take cover.

More enemies which can "pull" the player like Mag or the J3 Golem.

 

5. Planet level difficulties:  There aren't enough high level Greneer missions; the highest is Ceres at 25 - 35.  7/13 planets have difficulty between 15 and 25.  You could spread each planet over a 5 level difficulty and you'd wind up with difficulties 1-5 for Mercuty and 60-65 for Pluto, which wouldn't be too far off from what it is now.  Maybe throw one mission from each faction in each planet that way there is a level for each faction for each difficulty, even if each planet still has one dominant faction.

 

6. In Livestream 5, the devs mentioned allowing players to customize their personal difficulty.    Instead of modifying the enemies, which would be difficult to implement for multiplayer, modify the player's stats.  For example, at the highest difficulty, a player would do reduced damage and have maybe half health and shields.  I know you can already do something similar because in the "cold missions", shields are halved.

[MJ12]

Like I said yesterday, there is never going to be a time(at least with current technology) where the AI is going to be able to beat a team of co-ordinated individuals. There will never be a time where you can't say it's too easy because, without cheating(i'm looking at you insta-kill head shots from all the way across the map using iron sights in COD) the AI is, at the end of the day, extremely limited in capability. No computer is smart, the person that coded whatever program you are running is the smart one. A computer can only 'think' in two very rigid ways, off and on, all the rest is done by a person, and no person or team of people can come up with every possible scenario that a player might try. Thus, the feeling of 'stupid AI'. Until a computer can 'think' somewhere between off and on, the so called 'grey area' and get up to speed with a humans biological brain speed and start to learn on there own, 'stupid AI' will always exist. 

 

Here's a little tidbit after a quick google search:

"To put our findings in perspective, the 6.4*10^18 instructions per second that human kind can carry out on its general-purpose computers in 2007 are in the same ballpark area as the maximum number of nerve impulses executed by one human brain per second."

That's 64,000,000,000,000,000,000 Hz or 64,000,000,000 GHz .

So,even if you could program the 'grey area' and introduce a program that could learn on it's own, you would have to have a CPU that could perform that workload plus all the other various functions of your OS/Gaming/Etc.

The Intel i7-930 with all 4 cores going at maximum is around 11.733 GHz(adding all the cores 'turbo' speeds together, it's actual rated turbo speed is 3.066 GHz). So, it would take around 5,454,700,417.625 i7-930's (using the 11.733 GHz number), which retail,per chip, at around $330 US, putting cost for just the processing power at around $1,800,051,137,816.42 US. I suppose you could get a bulk discount, but I don't think very many of us have around $1 trillion US burning a hole in our pocket, not to mention all the ram,mb's,heat sinks,hd's,power supplies,a facility to house them in,the power required to run all of that,the knowledge of how to 'network' all those CPU's together (not even going into diminishing returns per cpu here), etc,etc.

I could go on, but I think this wall of text is enough.

 

Bro, do you even neuroscience?

 

A lot of the human brain is made up of things unnecessary for an AI that process stuff like 'language', 'how to keep your bodily processes going and not die from your heart not giving enough blood for your current exertion level', 'vision', 'moving individual muscles', and other things that for an AI bot are exceedingly simple tasks. An AI bot doesn't need to know how which one of a thousand different muscle groups he has to move to do something An AI bot doesn't need to know anything about processing vision, or depth perception, or other things because the data it gets has already done all of that processing for it.

 

Furthermore, you're comparing instructions per second versus nerve impulses, which is just hilarious. Fairly high-end estimates of how much processing power the human brain has are around 100 million MIPS, something like 40% of which are entirely dedicated to processing vision and further levels dedicated to processing feedback from pain receptors and the nervous system (because unlike a computer, a lot of things we do are inefficiently scaled up from simpler biological structures). You 'only' need 500 modern processors to match 100m MIPS, which is approximately less than one-tenth of one-percent the BS number you threw out). That's to fully emulate an actual human mind. Except you don't need to be that smart. You don't even need to be 0.1% that smart.

 

Are you aware of this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox

 

Things humans have been doing for ages (walking, talking, paying attention to important things) are hard. Things like 'video gaming' are easy for computers.

 

Overlord is capable of outplaying mid-tier hardcore Starcraft gamers, for example.

[fatpig84]

I say more enemies per spawn is fine.

Lower player damage only serves to fuel the "bullet sponge" issues that many are screaming right now.

 

Serious Sam 3 BFE, a game released sometime ago has better graphics and has practically close to 100 enemies on screen with co-op, I am sure Warframe can handle it since it is going to be a PS4 exclusive (which is close to a mid tier 2012 PC).

Edited July 11, 2013 by fatpig84

[Ferriwind]

Ummmmmmmm, the rocket launcher has 540 reserve ammo. 540 rocket launcher size shells. in your pocket. on your pants. your fat fat jean pants.

 

so yea, the rocket launcher will get an ammo nerf at least. Most likely along the lines of Paris and Snipertron and Vulkar. RL's should have just gotten a clip size along with a smaller reserve ammo size and a long &#! reload time. But, of course, it needs to be weirdly OP instead.

[fatpig84]

Ummmmmmmm, the rocket launcher has 540 reserve ammo. 540 rocket launcher size shells. in your pocket. on your pants. your fat fat jean pants.

 

so yea, the rocket launcher will get an ammo nerf at least. Most likely along the lines of Paris and Snipertron and Vulkar. RL's should have just gotten a clip size along with a smaller reserve ammo size and a long &#! reload time. But, of course, it needs to be weirdly OP instead.

 

So your idea of fixing the game is to fix the Ogris and Torid ?

How does that even fix the underlying game issue ?

 

Any player worth their salts always bring 8 ammo boxes since anyone doing void runs (or 6 ammo 2 team heals) are already used to this. Even dread and paris users already do this.

 

You can fix the RL ammo pool but it will still be a cake walk.

Edited July 11, 2013 by fatpig84

[whitejackale]

Bro, do you even neuroscience?

 

A lot of the human brain is made up of things unnecessary for an AI that process stuff like 'language', 'how to keep your bodily processes going and not die from your heart not giving enough blood for your current exertion level', 'vision', 'moving individual muscles', and other things that for an AI bot are exceedingly simple tasks. An AI bot doesn't need to know how which one of a thousand different muscle groups he has to move to do something An AI bot doesn't need to know anything about processing vision, or depth perception, or other things because the data it gets has already done all of that processing for it.

 

Furthermore, you're comparing instructions per second versus nerve impulses, which is just hilarious. Fairly high-end estimates of how much processing power the human brain has are around 100 million MIPS, something like 40% of which are entirely dedicated to processing vision and further levels dedicated to processing feedback from pain receptors and the nervous system (because unlike a computer, a lot of things we do are inefficiently scaled up from simpler biological structures). You 'only' need 500 modern processors to match 100m MIPS, which is approximately less than one-tenth of one-percent the BS number you threw out). That's to fully emulate an actual human mind. Except you don't need to be that smart. You don't even need to be 0.1% that smart.

 

Are you aware of this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec%27s_paradox

 

Things humans have been doing for ages (walking, talking, paying attention to important things) are hard. Things like 'video gaming' are easy for computers.

 

Overlord is capable of outplaying mid-tier hardcore Starcraft gamers, for example.

You pretty much said what I was thinking. I did not feel like going out to research how much of our "processing" power is used up by non gaming processes, so I just countered his argument with the simple chess machine beating world chess champion argument.

 

All that the developers have to worry about is creating triggers for their AI. The developers are the ones that have created a gaming world with certain constraints, and so they know most of the actions that players can take in the game. They just have to program their AI to react to those actions in order to up the difficulty. It is a balancing game between programming the AI correctly and balancing the combat system so that the enemies we fight are not so weak. I prefer smaller numbers of enemies that are "smart" and tough instead of large amounts of dumb enemies that are killed off without much effort.

[Aidith]

Sorry all, I've never played a game I can't beat. I don't believe there is a difficulty that will ever match a players skill. Say what you will about "AI", if it is so easy, by some estimates, why doesn't it exist? Computers excel at doing repetitive tasks that have no surprises. Once you have a situation that is beyond their programming, they fail.

And please, those that have nothing to say except be insulting, just don't say anything. I've heard every insult you've ever thought of and it all gets very boring after a while. Measuring our respective sizes has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Try not to argue, try to DEBATE, very large difference between the two. Argument gets you nowhere, debate comes up with useful ideas.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Aidith

[Ferriwind]

So your idea of fixing the game is to fix the Ogris and Torid ?

How does that even fix the underlying game issue ?

 

Any player worth their salts always bring 8 ammo boxes since anyone doing void runs (or 6 ammo 2 team heals) are already used to this. Even dread and paris users already do this.

 

You can fix the RL ammo pool but it will still be a cake walk.

The title says the game is too ez, but the OP said ogris is broken, which it is... there is a difference between 540 ammo and 70 ammo even with ammo boxes.... Idc if it will still be a cake walk, fix the 540 ammo and we'll be step closer to fixing everything.

 

Yea, I'd have to say the OP is wrong about ogris breaking the game though....

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Here's live action garbage.

 

 

You complaining at wave 8 o.O

 

Ok lets nerf Saryn, Banshee, Nyx, Ember, Mag...etc coz their ultz keep stealing my kills...

[whitejackale]

Sorry all, I've never played a game I can't beat. I don't believe their is a difficulty that will ever match a players skill. Say what you will about "AI", if it is so easy, by some estimates, why doesn't it exist? Computers excel at doing repetitive tasks that have no surprises. Once you have a situation that is beyond their programming, they fail.

 

And please, those that have nothing to say except be insulting, just don't say anything. I've heard every insult you've ever thought of and it all gets very boring after a while. Measuring our respective sizes has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Try not to argue, try to DEBATE, very large difference between the two. Argument gets you nowhere, debate comes up with useful ideas.

Chess playing computers can be coded to beat world class chess players, which leads me to be puzzled by your statement that " I don't believe their is a difficulty that will ever match a players skill." You yourself stated earlier that AI is not smart, but rather the programmer is the one with the smarts. This means that you are never really going against the skill of the AI, but rather you are going against the skill of the programmer.

 

Alas, the developers of most games are never aiming to create a game that is impossible to beat. They aim to create a game that can be beat while giving somewhat of a challenge to the majority of players. If that is the aim of DE, then they should introduce various tiers of difficulty into the game(that are not simply an increase in health/damage/numbers). This different tiers are needed because there are players of various different skill levels out there, which means that different difficulty levels are required to provide a challenge and enjoyment to players of different skill levels.

 

On a sidenote, you should google "Critical thinking and arguments" in order to get a better understanding of critical thinking, reasoning, arguments, and fallacies.

Edited July 11, 2013 by whitejackale

[azmyth1]

@Carcharias Those numbers are the damage counters.  The final number is letting you know the total HP of the enemy that just died.

[wfrawn]

The game only becomes hard when you do endless defense, and when you solo missions that are significanty higher than your warframe/weapon rank.

 

And unless rocket aoe is as large as that of magic powers such as "world on fire", i don't think rocket launchers are the main problem here.

 

 

"Somewhat related to #2, bosses can get kind of silly to fight in large groups especially with a couple CC frames like Vauban and Frost."


Can a group be larger than four?
I'd say the problem is not group size but warframe/weapon rank versus mob/boss level.
An on-level group can have a pretty tough time with any of the bosses.
But the game pretty much requires high ranked warframes to do low level missions, given the low drop rate of certain blueprints. You know how that goes: they kill the boss in mere seconds while the noobs in the squad are still on their way to where the boss is.

Edited July 11, 2013 by wfrawn

[Kerrus]

OMG, maxed out weapon is OP on wave 1 mercury defense OMG!

Seriously bro, go play Outer Terminus to wave 50 and then tell me it's OP.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Kerrus

[K0ZURE]

I'm really tired of joining defenses and seeing 2 out of 4 people with rocket launchers, 1 shotting everything. This defeats the purpose of using abilities, melee, or any other aspect of the game. Stand on high ground, spam rockets....

Nerf the rocket launcher, or increase the AI difficulty.

Stay tuned for the worst gameplay of the rocket launcher ever, and watch what is happening to this game.. Rendering now, and will be uploaded in the next hour.

 

 

YES the game is too easy when you're holding an ogris in a lv 10 defense mission lol. You talk about using your abilities? Well, try your abilities on a lv 130 enemies wave 35-40, you're gonna wish you have someone in your team holding a rocket launcher. 

 

The only challenge in this game for me is to go to high waves, that's why i've been making friends with people who love doing high defense mission.

I just wish there's an option where we i can start the defense mission on wave 30 to avoid meeting a wuss like you who quits after 10-15 waves and $#*(@ about how this game is too easy. 

 

You're a lv 28 vauban, why not throw tesla/vortex at the mob so they could clear the wave faster and go to higher wave instead of standing around doing nothing. If you think this game is easy go kill phorid/ambulas with a rank 0 frame and weapon.

Edited July 11, 2013 by K0ZURE

[Sixnalia]

That is a step in the right direction. I would like to see them making the game more like an rpg. What I mean by this is that they should introduce interesting mechanics that increase the difficulty of the game. Examples of this mechanics would be creating missions in which you need to have warframes with healing capabilities, warframes with tanking capabilities, and warframes with certain damage capabilities.

As someone who plays about 4 MMOs that obsess over the "holy trinity" of tank/heal/dps, I hope that Warframe remains the same and that these mechanics you hope for are all about players smartly avoiding them. such as jumping over Jackal's pounds. The old Holy Trinity can be cool, but it is overused in RPGs already of the MMO variety and would make this game less unique and less appealing. Next we'll need targeting like TERA to heal directly, taunt/threat mechanics for tanks, and CC for dealing with "too many enemies".

I prefer the idea of high difficulties where we have to avoid mechanics from enemies that can deal heavy damage. Where we're encouraged to conserve our energy for certain moments rather than drown in energy orbs. Let the skill of the player be all that is required to get through a mission, not some tank/healer/dps set up where all the skill in the world wont save you without a healer or tank.

[Tatersail]

Pluto nightmare modes should be almost impossible...

[Ghobe]

Let the skill of the player be all that is required to get through a mission, not some tank/healer/dps set up where all the skill in the world wont save you without a healer or tank.

So very much this. I'm so damned tired of the trinity and guaranteed damage without guaranteed heals. At least in Tera I could solo enemies designed for groups at level without much strain, it just took longer(not that it was all that rewarding, but at least it could be done). The problem there though, was that S#&$ just lived too damned long. Challenging-ish content is great and all...until it takes 15 minutes per fight and you've got 9-25 fights to do -.-;;

[Sixnalia]

So very much this. I'm so damned tired of the trinity and guaranteed damage without guaranteed heals. At least in Tera I could solo enemies designed for groups at level without much strain, it just took longer(not that it was all that rewarding, but at least it could be done). The problem there though, was that S#&$ just lived too damned long. Challenging-ish content is great and all...until it takes 15 minutes per fight and you've got 9-25 fights to do -.-;;

No kidding. I remember leveling my Mystic in TERA. 40+ caused me to suffer greatly for time. Skill allowed me to avoid those nasty mechanics, but my damage as a heal/support lacked behind and it took me quite some time to down an enemy.

I'd like to see this game keep with the unique Frames that affect play style rather than gain a trinity with classes for specific roles.

With how much interaction we have for mobility with the environment, they could make some fairly cool mechanics we have to avoid. Wall run to the other side of a multi-platform room to avoid a boss/mini-boss attack that affects a whole platform; that's one I can think of off the top of my head. When you aren't tied down to have a trinity for roles, the mechanics can get fun and everyone can participate too.