Rhino's Opness

[Fleischkloppa]

Rhino is perfect now once the roar duration time is fixed again - please stop the hating.We had to endure a very sub-par frame for a long time and now, finally, we are on-par.Stop saying how rhino stomp or anyhting else needs a nerf - could be DE listens to such S#&$ and nerfs it again, which would make for a whole lot of sad Rhinos.You ever seen sad Rhinos?It´s not a beautiful view to behold.

[Jeraggerjack]

That youtube video was funny. I would have liked to see it done around wave 15 on pluto.

This issues falls on almost every single Warframe, every one of them has at least one ability that ends up not working well that high up.

Do you see a flood around here? I dont see it. There are some trickles but it's no flood.

 

 

 

 

Miasma has half of the range as Stomp, Crush doesnt ignore armor, RJ hits a limited number of enemies.

Nu-Stomp definitely is on top of the list now.

Frost does not have this issue with snowglobe. Ember does not have this issue with overheat. Name another warframe that has a similar tank ability.

Stomp's primary focus is CC, especially when the damage does not scale to higher level enemies. This holds true of all the warframe ults which is why the abilities that DO scale right now such as stomp, snowglobe, overheat, chaos, etc. are so important. 

I understand ember's overheat gets a damage % reduction while retaining cc immunity, but they did not do this with iron skin when it had the % DR.

If they had kept the % damage immunity on iron skin with the CC immunity and had that DR% affect shields, I would have been satisfied. It's still my opinion that steel fiber will have no place as a mod until it provides some sort of benefit to iron skin or to warframes in general. Having armor affect shields makes sense as health does not regenerate outside of the regeneration artifact, health orbs, or health restores. If it did, the game would be a whole lot less challenging. Therefore, armor affecting shields would make sense and give the warframes an increased sense of uniqueness.

[Phoenix86]

Rhino has been already hit with the nerf hammer, now he is back in a new shape after months, dont even try to call the nerf hammer again!

We all know how it went and i dont want repeat the experience!

[Leyden]

OMG everyone is complaining about Rhino's IS being bad, buuuuuut has anyone actually been in a defense mission with a good Rhino player?????

Ran two times through wave 30 on IO. Only got touched on wave 30.  

Rhino kills everything or makes everything helpless, CONSTANTLY.

Stop complaining because you want invincibility and realize the true potential of your frame.

Oh and one more thing. You should never be standing still trying to tank high lvl mobs as this is suicide(common sense in a space ninja game) ninjas move around, Sherman tanks sit still.

 

Since the rework , rhino is fun to play , team-friendly , and gain interest in hight-energy environnement (defence).

When bug and issue will be solved he'll be just perfect.

 

Making a complain topic about people complaining doesn't really help :)

[BadlandsHyena]

*sobs*

Rhino's all grown up (again)!

[lautalocos]

The issue is with one of rhino's abilities not scaling to higher level/end game content like other frame abilities do.

Imagine if overheat and snowglobe had the same mechanics that iron skin does now. They'd work fine in lower level missions, but once you start hitting higher level / end game content, they'd become almost useless pretty quick.

It has nothing to do with Rhino being OP / UP.

I'd really like it if they gave similar abilities on other frames a similar cap mechanic for a week just to watch the flood of tears drown the forums. Snowglobe and overheat with a 1200 damage absorption cap especially. Experience is the best teacher, after all.

dude, you can use iron skin over and over again, and it´s like an extra fully upgraded shield. if im not wrong, your total life until you die with iron skin is 3050 (740 from upgraded health, 1110 with upgraded redirection and 1200 from iron skin, which you can use 6 times with an upgraded flow, and that´s not even counting streamline. and i almost forgot, upgraded steel fiber). and most frames survive just fine without those extra 1200 health points from iron skin.

[Mak_Gohae]

Frost does not have this issue with snowglobe. Ember does not have this issue with overheat. Name another warframe that has a similar tank ability.

 

Stomp's primary focus is CC, especially when the damage does not scale to higher level enemies. This holds true of all the warframe ults which is why the abilities that DO scale right now such as stomp, snowglobe, overheat, chaos, etc. are so important.

 

 

This is what you said.

The issue is with one of rhino's abilities not scaling to higher level/end game content like other frame abilities do.

 

At least ONE of Frost abilities does not scale, at least ONE of Ember's abilities does not scale.

You were not specific in what you wrote. You are just continuing the focused complain on IS and ignoring anything else.

Ember has 10 armor..... one hit dead at a certain point so she actually needs something to survive, this Warframe without this has zero escape abilities. And Rhino doesnt have issue with Stomp, like you said, because it does it's damage without reduction and it sends people flying so this covers the Frost comment.

[Kazewave]

Rhino is good as he is right now.He doesnt have to suffer an endless cycle of buffs and nerfs,if this keeps happening then arguments will still continue.Accept rhino for what he has and get used to it.In my opinion,I like what they did to iron skin or rhino skin which I usually call it.It is very useful in soloing missions and even the high lvl ones,I solo nakki in sedna for killing drones the entire event and iron skin did its job well.If it reached its damage cap just use it again and thats a sweet god mode right there

[Jeraggerjack]

This is what you said.

The issue is with one of rhino's abilities not scaling to higher level/end game content like other frame abilities do.

 

At least ONE of Frost abilities does not scale, at least ONE of Ember's abilities does not scale.

You were not specific in what you wrote. You are just continuing the focused complain on IS and ignoring anything else.

Ember has 10 armor..... one hit dead at a certain point so she actually needs something to survive, this Warframe without this has zero escape abilities. And Rhino doesnt have issue with Stomp, like you said, because it does it's damage without reduction and it sends people flying so this covers the Frost comment.

The difference between what I'm arguing and what you're arguing is that I'm arguing as far as PvE balance and you're arguing as far as PvP.

I'll be blunt. I don't give a damn about PvP, that is not why I picked up this game. I've played eve online, counterstrike, starcraft bw and starcraft 2, etc. to test and measure my skills in PvP. I did not pick up this game to put money and time in it so I can pretend to be ub3r 1337 pvper in a game where there's no clear measure of skill. The PvP crowd will forever be crying "IMBA !" until this game is driven completely into the ground.

I was quite specific in what I wrote. I can only dumb things down so much.

There is no complaining here. The IS crowd has been arguing facts right from the get go. When I used snowglobe and overheat as two other abilities that scale and put IS in the same category ( it is ) and suggested trying to picture what the game would be like if those abilities had a damage cap like IS, I believe you got my point. You're not that stupid.

 

[weezedog]

Miasma has half of the range as Stomp, Crush doesnt ignore armor, RJ hits a limited number of enemies.

Nu-Stomp definitely is on top of the list now.

 

Except for the fact that you can only cast Stomp once every 9-13 seconds because it won't let you cast it again until the CC portion of the effect has worn off, even if you cast it in an empty room with no enemies you still can't cast it again. So how many times could you spam Miasma in that time?

 

Stomp tries to do 2 things, but doesn't do either one exceptionally well. It was never a great CC ability to begin with because new enemies could just walk right through it and the CC doesn't last long at all. It does good damage, but you are locked out of using it again for 9-13 seconds making it non-spammable so not great for higher level enemies. 

[Sada_no_Fujin]

dude, you can use iron skin over and over again, and it´s like an extra fully upgraded shield. if im not wrong, your total life until you die with iron skin is 3050 (740 from upgraded health, 1110 with upgraded redirection and 1200 from iron skin, which you can use 6 times with an upgraded flow, and that´s not even counting streamline. and i almost forgot, upgraded steel fiber). and most frames survive just fine without those extra 1200 health points from iron skin.

 

 

That doesn't work against infested anymore. there is no timer and no indicators. You don't know when its gonna drop. That S#&$ gets you disrupted.

[Mak_Gohae]

The difference between what I'm arguing and what you're arguing is that I'm arguing as far as PvE balance and you're arguing as far as PvP.

I'll be blunt. I don't give a damn about PvP, that is not why I picked up this game. I've played eve online, counterstrike, starcraft bw and starcraft 2, etc. to test and measure my skills in PvP. I did not pick up this game to put money and time in it so I can pretend to be ub3r 1337 pvper in a game where there's no clear measure of skill. The PvP crowd will forever be crying "IMBA !" until this game is driven completely into the ground.

 

 

I never said anything about PvP anywhere.

 

I was quite specific in what I wrote. I can only dumb things down so much.

 

No you left it very vague, your opening sentence is completely open to counting all abilities.

 

There is no complaining here. The IS crowd has been arguing facts right from the get go. When I used snowglobe and overheat as two other abilities that scale and put IS in the same category ( it is ) and suggested trying to picture what the game would be like if those abilities had a damage cap like IS, I believe you got my point. You're not that stupid.

 

But you folks never take in the wider picture, you just focus one ability and ignore anything else.

Let's look at Ember.... to start she has no escape ability because the one ability that staggers enemies for a bit, Fireblast, get's ignore at higher levels. Secondly.... all her other damaging abilities take a hit at higher levels, correct? I dunno i could be wrong. Third..... she has no armor. She has ONE armor ability to help with what when there is a serious trouble so what is the problem when you look at all she has? Frost is in the same boat as Ember, as far as i know, in that his damaging abilities become less effective so he only has Snow Globe to survive at higher levels. What does Rhino have? Before he had 3 knockdown abilities... THREE! So what's the problem if one of his abilities doesn't work? He has THREE to fall back on? He lost a knockdown but he has a damaging boosting abilities which still helps.

 

Rhino has ALWAYS been in a good position when it came to higher levels but that get's totally ignored because you folks just want that one power back.

 

Except for the fact that you can only cast Stomp once every 9-13 seconds because it won't let you cast it again until the CC portion of the effect has worn off, even if you cast it in an empty room with no enemies you still can't cast it again. So how many times could you spam Miasma in that time?

 

Stomp tries to do 2 things, but doesn't do either one exceptionally well. It was never a great CC ability to begin with because new enemies could just walk right through it and the CC doesn't last long at all. It does good damage, but you are locked out of using it again for 9-13 seconds making it non-spammable so not great for higher level enemies. 

 

It has a 20 meter range at least, how many times do you need to cast it? Look at your surrounds and learn to cast it when it's best.

And a whole bunch of powers dont affect people that are not within range when the ability is set off, this is not something unique to Rhino.

[Sada_no_Fujin]

Rhino is not OP. deal with it.

[BraveDude8]

I'm fairly sure DE said something about "buffing all frames to Vauban level"

 

I'm going to wait this out and see how many other frames get buffs.

 

Then ask for enemy buffs because it will be too easy otherwise.

[Sada_no_Fujin]

The only people who cry nerf are the ones who don't play with that frame. That guy probably had his frame polarized 5 times and had beast weaponry. 

[Jeraggerjack]

I never said anything about PvP anywhere.

 

Reread my reply to your post. I made it quite obvious in the quoted post where you mentioned PvP. You were probably trying to avoid it, but whoops, the subconscious can say the darndest things.

 

No you left it very vague, your opening sentence is completely open to counting all abilities.

 

I am responsible for what I say, not what you perceive. I.E.

The sky is blue today. 

There is news that several airliners were hijacked and one of them has already crashed into....etc etc etc

My opening sentence is vague and opens it to discussion about the weather, despite the fact that the post has nothing to do about the weather.

 

 

But you folks never take in the wider picture, you just focus one ability and ignore anything else.

Kind of like how you look at just the opening sentence and ignore everything else? Hm?

 

Let's look at Ember.... to start she has no escape ability because the one ability that staggers enemies for a bit, Fireblast, get's ignore at higher levels. Secondly.... all her other damaging abilities take a hit at higher levels, correct? I dunno i could be wrong. Third..... she has no armor. She has ONE armor ability to help with what when there is a serious trouble so what is the problem when you look at all she has? Frost is in the same boat as Ember, as far as i know, in that his damaging abilities become less effective so he only has Snow Globe to survive at higher levels. What does Rhino have? Before he had 3 knockdown abilities... THREE! So what's the problem if one of his abilities doesn't work? He has THREE to fall back on? He lost a knockdown but he has a damaging boosting abilities which still helps.

 

Rhino has ALWAYS been in a good position when it came to higher levels but that get's totally ignored because you folks just want that one power back.

 

 

It has a 20 meter range at least, how many times do you need to cast it? Look at your surrounds and learn to cast it when it's best.

And a whole bunch of powers dont affect people that are not within range when the ability is set off, this is not something unique to Rhino.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Go educate yourself, please. You've made it quite clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You have a roof over your head, food, and clothing. 

Other people do not , but they have oxygen.

Therefore, you do not need oxygen.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[ValhaHazred]

Then ask for enemy buffs because it will be too easy otherwise.

As long as it's interesting and powerful, but fair and avoidable attack type difficulty and not lol-10,000hp difiiculty. Because bullet sponging is laaaaame.

[Jeraggerjack]

I think the game difficulty is fine as it is.  Too much balancing around max mods, reactored frames and gear, etc. will alienate newer players. Without new players, the game is eventually going to lose steam and die out.

 

[devliesom]

Rhino stomp is overpowered?

Oh. PvP.

*facepalm*

When are y'all going to get that PvP is about measuring SKILL and not showing off the fact that you invested 250 bucks and 800+ hours of gametime so you can be "ub3r 1337" in a game that revolves around PvE?

When? When?

smh

 

 

Because the programmers couldn't make % base damage reduction work while keeping invulnerability to disruption, knockdown, stagger, etc.

All incarnations of iron skin past that point have been band aids while they're trying to figure that out.... IF they are trying to figure it out.

[devliesom]

pvp has noting to do with warframs its all about what mods u have on it  and how u play ur warframs thats all ' all mos every warfram aoe is the same in power if u dont know that by now u dont need to be playing warframs  :)

[lautalocos]

That doesn't work against infested anymore. there is no timer and no indicators. You don't know when its gonna drop. That S#&$ gets you disrupted.

in that case the disruptors are the problem. rhino is not weak against disruptors, EVERY WARFRAME is weak agains disruptors.

and what happens against other factions? the other ones will surely don´t kill you with 3050 and more if you have enoguh energy to spam iron skin. if you die in a situation like that, iron skin is not the problem, you are the problem

[Jeraggerjack]

pvp has noting to do with warframs

I agree.

its all about what mods u have on it  and how u play ur warframs thats all '

That's already established in the PvE area of warframe, making pvp unnecessary. How a frame is equipped for PvP is completely different from how it is in PvE.

For example: In Eve,fitting a ship with a PvE setup for PvP will result in a hilarious loss. Likewise, setting a ship up for PvP and going on a PvE mission will result in a hilarious loss, all of which is tracked by killboards. Since good corporations and alliances in Eve have high standards and investigate a character's background fully, you can see how this is a recipe for epic fail.

 all mos every warfram aoe is the same in power

Oh, so Volt's overload does the same damage to infested as it does to corpus? Likewise, Ember's world on fire is as effective vs corpus and grineer as it is versus infested?

 if u dont know that by now u dont need to be playing warframs  :)

Seeing how your entire argument is invalid in the first place and falls flat on its face, I don't see the connection. Are you saying basically that I have to be as low information, dogmatic, and naive as you are in order to play warframe? Where in the EULA does it say that?

smh

Edited July 10, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[Mak_Gohae]

Reread my reply to your post. I made it quite obvious in the quoted post where you mentioned PvP. You were probably trying to avoid it, but whoops, the subconscious can say the darndest things.

 

Still dont know how describing how the power works turns the discussion into dealing with PvP when nothing anywhere in the post specifically mentions it.

 

I am responsible for what I say, not what you perceive. I.E.

 

And you said one of his powers doesnt scale which is true of almost all frames.

So the argument over IS not scaling when Rhino has 3 abilities that do fine at higher levels and comparing them to a two frames that just have one ability that scales is pretty narrow in view.

 

 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

Go educate yourself, please. You've made it quite clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You have a roof over your head, food, and clothing. 

Other people do not , but they have oxygen.

Therefore, you do not need oxygen.

 

If something i mentioned is wrong you can correct it, that is sort of how discussions evolve.

Do Frost and Ember have only one ability that scales well in higher levels or do they not?

Does Rhino still have 3 abilities that scale well to higher levels or does he not?

[Jeraggerjack]

Still dont know how describing how the power works turns the discussion into dealing with PvP when nothing anywhere in the post specifically mentions it.

 

 and it sends people flying so this covers the Frost comment.

People, as opposed to grineer, corpus, infested... otherwise known as mobs. Players are people, mobs are not.  Why would you be concerned with people as opposed to mobs? You wouldn't be fighting people except in.... PvP. As I said, the subconscious says the darndest things.

 

And you said one of his powers doesnt scale which is true of almost all frames.

So the argument over IS not scaling when Rhino has 3 abilities that do fine at higher levels and comparing them to a two frames that just have one ability that scales is pretty narrow in view.

See below post

If something i mentioned is wrong you can correct it, that is sort of how discussions evolve.

Do Frost and Ember have only one ability that scales well in higher levels or do they not?

Does Rhino still have 3 abilities that scale well to higher levels or does he not?

See below post

The issues you're bringing up have nothing to do with the original argument in the first place. The problem is relevance, that's where the disconnect is.

If you expect me to spend my time educating you on your mistakes, I expect to be paid for my time to the tune of at least 30 dollars an hour. If you cannot accommodate that, then I suggest you take up an introductory logic course and learn how to identify bad reasoning.

The original iron skin granted complete invincibility for a certain duration. However, this really did not become a problem until PvP started being discussed. When that happened, a flood of threads started appearing debating balance and demanding nerfs. As far as IS in PvE was concerned, some people felt it made the game too easy as Rhino had a Godmode button.

Up until the change, Iron Skin and stomp used together allowed the rhino to revive teammates and save the pod at the same time. It was immensely valuable as it was a more valuable CC than chaos and guaranteed to buy time. Radial blast did ... what, 200, 250 damage at the time and a knockdown within a small area. The reason why CC became so valuable late game is that damage powers did a certain amount of damage and did not scale with higher levels of enemies. So when one cast of an ultimate would be enough on lower levels, at those levels, not even 4 or 5 casts of them would be enough. It wasn't cost efficient and took more time. A CC ability that buys time to take down the enemies due to the decreased effectiveness of weapon and damage powers was therefore very valuable. In lower level missions, they weren't very valuable because why CC when you can just kill them outright with a damage ult?

When Iron Skin was changed from complete invincibility to a percentage based damage reduction and it lost all immunity to disruption, knockdown, etc. Rhino went from being useful on missions such as Xini and Outer Terminus to worthless.

The next change to Iron Skin gave it a damage cap, but the duration was still there. BUT immunity to disruption, knockdown, etc. was back. This was fine in lower level content, in situations where it doesn't even need to be used in the first place. But for Xini, Outer terminus, and t3 voids, it was just as useless as before. In addition, it generated threat, which is an ideal addition if it wasn't lost almost immediately after casting it.

This version has a flat damage cap as well. But the damage cap is increased a little, which has made it a bit more viable. In addition, the duration was removed. It keeps the immunity to disruption, knockdown, etc. while it is still up in addition to generating threat. HOWEVER....

The original problem still exists. It makes everything up to end game content easy mode, which was the main gripe of those who wanted it balanced for PvE while still not scaling and doing much of value in end game infinite defense, t3, and future end game content. Rhino roar is an attempt to keep the Rhino relevant towards end game content by increasing the effectiveness of the party's damage abilities and gear to compensate for IS's reduced effectiveness.

Other warframe abilities and powers aren't relevant in that entire argument. Nowhere are they mentioned. They do not affect the validity of the argument nor do they have an effect on whether the conclusion is true or false. All the red herrings in the world will not change that.

I mentioned frost's snowglobe and ember's overheat as examples of abilities that scale and that scaling is intelligent design. I presented a "what if" scenario where what if snowglobe or overheat (which are similar to Iron Skin ) were damage capped like IS is now. This was to help players understand the fundamental argument behind why we're saying the current version of IS and the past changes after removing the invincibility duration do not scale. It is way too strong in early game content and it is not as it needs to be in end game content. Before, it was too good apparently for both. So now it is too good for the early game and not good enough for the late game. Why don't a lot of people see this as a problem? PvP. For its cost in platinum and the mastery rank requirement , this doesn't make much sense.

Why is it that Rhino requires a mastery rank of 2 (the ONLY warframe to require a mastery rank so far) and cost the amount of platinum that it does on the market?

Edited July 10, 2013 by Jeraggerjack

[Parinirvana]

Rhino sucks, sell it and play Loki.