Think of the Vets

[RistN]

Ok.And if someone from DE read this topic and then viewed you're profile ,do you think they would take you seriously?

[KorbanGado]

1 hour ago, LuckyCharm said:

Im one of the vets calling for endgame. Really if we arent supposed to have perfect formad gear and frames then why are formas, potatos and primed mods even in the game? But then.. where are we supposed to use this stuff currently without spending a boring hour in survival for things to even start getting hard. 

I wouldnt care if the end game was just the same starmap missions with just super high levels. Where the only change is exp gain and the chance of farmable cosmetics..even if it was just say.. the illiac set recolored for infested missions

All the formas and 'taters make life easier - that's the point of them in the game. Yes, it enables the average person to do better for longer, but for someone looking for a challenge it'd be like complaining "easy mode" is too easy and ignoring the hard mode option. I get people want harder stuff, but I also don't see most people wanting it throwing out any ideas on how they could actually legitimately make a harder content to appease them without just making it artificial with mega-bullet sponge enemies combined with stacking ancients and increased nullifier spawns - to which I feel confident in saying most people would be shouting much more harsh versions of "lame!" and "cheats!"

Now, to credit where it's due - your right about the people who want to just jump right in to level 100+ guys not really having that spot to just go in and do it. Well, at least in the small scale area. Otherwise, such things as Trials exist - complete with level 70/80 start points as well as being designed for a squad of 8 and a reward (arcanes) and even a cosmetic one that can only be obtained by completing it (emblem). There are even nightmare variations of those! Personally, I haven't done them (as I refuse to PUG it, and I can hardly get three people I know on at the same time, let alone eight) so I don't know first hand how difficult or easy the mission may be. Maybe it's still to easy for someone whose mechanically gamed everything available to have the highest amount of damage from the "best" weapon whilst using their godly warframe all having more potatoes and forma in them than the void itself.

Perhaps you can help me if I seem to be misunderstanding the idea of endgame here (or at least, your version of) - as in all the time's I've been in forums for this or that game, I never seem like I get the same answer from each person who wants it. One person just want's better loot (which is redundant to call it endgame if it just leads to the next set of loot to come out later, ala WoW). One person just wants it to be super "ain't never gonna win it" hard (even though difficulty is all subjective anyways - like all the people who said Dark Souls was this frustratingly hard game when the only thing I really found difficult in it was constantly having to postpone my game because of invaders until I could trick the system into thinking I was offline). One person might tell me that it's the literal sense - like "I beat the game and it's over" (which is great for story, unless it's delivered like ME3, although not super conducive to getting players to come back and play more with a linear story). The whole boxed-in label just gets me all confused I think.

Again though, I can't help but reiterate how much I feel like someone saying "this is too easy" while using a min-max mindset is missing the fact that they could easily make the game harder on themselves without a single thing in the game being added or change. Not that I don't like the idea of more content - the more content the merrier, even though I'll inevitably just get sick of the outrageous RNG results that have to be in place for people to spend money and support the game. I could, in Aliens vs Predator, just plasmacast every single moving target I saw - but I preferred to get in there with claws and combi and tear it up in the most haunting way I possibly could, know what I mean? My pal still brings up that time he was shaking in his boots because I was taunting him from seemingly all around him and he couldn't figure out where I was... Same guy also likes to bring up the time he mined the crap out of a cave and I went in and blew up despite knowing it was probably rigged.

[ChuckMaverick]

23 minutes ago, KorbanGado said:

Again though, I can't help but reiterate how much I feel like someone saying "this is too easy" while using a min-max mindset is missing the fact that they could easily make the game harder on themselves without a single thing in the game being added or change.

Because they min/max to make themselves as powerful as possible, and then want a challenge worthy of that power.

Why buy a Ferrari and limit yourself to only driving in first gear?

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

3 hours ago, RistN said:

Ok.And if someone from DE read this topic and then viewed you're profile ,do you think they would take you seriously?

I don't understand what you mean, or is it in your opinion that my lack of involvement with the forums compared to others is somehow more relevant than the points I bring up as a console player?

[RistN]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

I don't understand what you mean, or is it in your opinion that my lack of involvement with the forums compared to others is somehow more relevant than the points I bring up as a console player?

No,nothing like that.I mean you talking of being veteran but youre profile says you joined in november 2016.

[LuckyCharm]

5 hours ago, KorbanGado said:

-all the words-

Now what you said is mostly true, bullet spongea are just that.. not harder than any regular enemies they just take longer. If i was to suggest anything for endgame.. its that they need to change up the ai for high level missions. Enemies need to try and work together with squad tactics and infested need more aggression. Chargers dont even charge you.. they run up then just swipe at you.. runners dont explode on contact, that sort of thing (they really dont, they stand still and take a second to blow up). My thoughts for endgame would be to make enemies actively try to kill you. Set up ambushes etc.

Though may have to make the missions with a reduction to cc duration somehow since most cc is going to still stop even smart ai doing anything

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

6 hours ago, RistN said:

No,nothing like that.I mean you talking of being veteran but youre profile says you joined in november 2016.

That is because as I said I am a console player, and have been playing since it came out for Ps4 I am at 21 MR, but IMO MR isn't an accurate way to determine how skilled one is, also I hadn't had a need to join the forums to post a question I needed answered until recently, and have slowly become more active in the forums. 

I would not be asking for more challenging content if I wasn't in a sort of stalemate with the current "End Game", or to be more precise lack there of a defined "End Game"

Edited March 14, 2017 by (PS4)Zero_Noctis

[KorbanGado]

18 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

Because they min/max to make themselves as powerful as possible, and then want a challenge worthy of that power.

Why buy a Ferrari and limit yourself to only driving in first gear?

Why be upset that your Ferrari is blowing away all the lawnmowers your racing against? I mean, there's that Dynasty Warriors style power-play fulfillment, where it's one person capable of absolutely annihilating everything, and then there's the challenging fight to the death by the skin of your teeth. I mean, I don't mean to come off nearly as dense or insulting as some of what I say may come off as, but I just don't get it. It's like slapping a v12 into your lawnmower and then being angry that the other lawnmowers got nothing on you - it's still a lawnmower even if you switch down to the old engine (ie. Mechanically the game is the same if you take all those mods that aren't ability augments that change function out). Maybe my disconnect on the whole "want to be super powerful but not feel super powerful" isn't something that can just be explained to me?

12 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Now what you said is mostly true, bullet spongea are just that.. not harder than any regular enemies they just take longer. If i was to suggest anything for endgame.. its that they need to change up the ai for high level missions. Enemies need to try and work together with squad tactics and infested need more aggression. Chargers dont even charge you.. they run up then just swipe at you.. runners dont explode on contact, that sort of thing (they really dont, they stand still and take a second to blow up). My thoughts for endgame would be to make enemies actively try to kill you. Set up ambushes etc.

Though may have to make the missions with a reduction to cc duration somehow since most cc is going to still stop even smart ai doing anything

See, they added reduced power usage and CC lock-downs in the forms of nullifiers - and we all know how much (almost everyone) abo@#&*ely abhors their existence. We'll probably see a similar reaction when the Eximus units above level 50 (or whatever it was, I don't recall) start spawning with invulnerability through the weakpoint system they showed off on the one devstream. As for the tactics, they have been talking about making a "mid-boss" tier of guy who helps pump up the fodder - because the fodder is still an important part of this game to make a player feel powerful (and is largely my favorite part of the game, when it feels like someone spilled Guyver into Dynasty Warriors). Have you tried the Trials at all? I doubt the enemies AI is different at all, but perhaps the puzzle/challenge route would be the way to go?

8 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

That is because as I said I am a console player, and have been playing since it came out for Ps4 I am at 21 MR, but IMO MR isn't an accurate way to determine how skilled one is, also I hadn't had a need to join the forums to post a question I needed answered until recently, and have slowly become more active in the forums. 

I would not be asking for more challenging content if I wasn't in a sort of stalemate with the current "End Game", or to be more precise lack there of a defined "End Game"

What's "End Game" mean to you - it's an important distinction that needs to be included anytime it comes up imo. Also, again, simply saying "Give me end game" isn't helpful either - throw in some examples of what you think might be a good way of dealing with it. Right now, the only thing you have listed on there is "give me a new RNG grind that I can do that will so brokenly overpower my warframe the game won't be fun unless I enjoy feeling like I'm on a power trip as though I took my fully maxed out and forma'd frame back to the first possible level" - which RNG never actually displays skill, only luck and "i can waste a lot of time to do this" - which is why a lot of people (like me) enjoy being able to trade most items. Although a big part of the Free to Play, Warframe as a game is more than just RNG - but the purpose of that RNG is to make us (the players) decide if we'd rather spend money or time to get things. This keeps the playing field level (it's not pay-to-win), but entices some people who would otherwise never once pay a cent to play this game throw in some money and keep the company running.

Totes McGotes agree on the whole "MR" not a good show of skill (more just a show of how much time I spent leveling stuff). That said, I think what the other fellow may have been getting at is a Veteran is someone who has a long experience in a field (at least, in the sense of this game), so it could seem to someone at first glance of your profile here that maybe you haven't been around all that long. Again, at that point it's pretty much just the title of your thread that comes into questions (making it specifically "this is about all the vets"), as opposed to the majority of your thread actually being about the same thing that constantly comes up - "End Game" and "too easy with all my stuff maxed out." I may have a MR of 23 and over 1K hours logged into this game, but the only thing you can tell on the forums is how old the forum account is (2013 in my case) unless a player states otherwise.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, KorbanGado said:

Why be upset that your Ferrari is blowing away all the lawnmowers your racing against?

No one is upset by that, they just want other Ferraris to race against as well.

[Smokinwaffles43]

On 3/12/2017 at 3:19 PM, ChuckMaverick said:

All games need a 'catch-up' system, or they die as more and more new players realise they're never going to be able to match what the vets have, and quit.

Exclusivity should be reserved for cosmetic items, not anything that affects gameplay.

Where do you draw the line for 'cosmetic'? The strun wraith is the perfect example of a weapon that has been out for exclusively early players. It offers a cosmetic difference and also improved stats. While it is a huge improvement over the regular strun there are arguably better shotguns out there (vaykor hek boar prime). 

[ChuckMaverick]

19 minutes ago, Smokinwaffles43 said:

Where do you draw the line for 'cosmetic'? The strun wraith is the perfect example of a weapon that has been out for exclusively early players. It offers a cosmetic difference and also improved stats. While it is a huge improvement over the regular strun there are arguably better shotguns out there (vaykor hek boar prime). 

The Strun Wraith is not cosmetic, as it has a clear stat difference to the regular Strun and offers additional mastery for ranking it up.

In general I have no problem with the time-limited exclusivity of event weapons and mods as DE later re-introduce them into the game through other means, so all players have the prospect of being able to acquire them at some point.

True cosmetic rewards are things like ranks for your Stratos emblem, exclusive sigils, event trophies.

To build on a suggestion made in the OP, a suitable reward for an extremely challenging set of in-game tasks could be unlocking a unique skin for the warframe you used to complete the challenge (though not a power increase as the OP suggested).

This would give vets challenging, potentially long-term goals to play for, and a method of showing off their achievement, without widening the power gap between vets and newer players.

It would be an investment from DE in creating these rewards that they couldn't recoup by selling them directly (as being able to simply purchase the skin would diminish what it stood for), so they'd have to feel that the increased player retention that it could offer would be worth it.

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

17 hours ago, KorbanGado said:

 

What's "End Game" mean to you - it's an important distinction that needs to be included anytime it comes up imo. Also, again, simply saying "Give me end game" isn't helpful either - throw in some examples of what you think might be a good way of dealing with it. Right now, the only thing you have listed on there is "give me a new RNG grind that I can do that will so brokenly overpower my warframe the game won't be fun unless I enjoy feeling like I'm on a power trip as though I took my fully maxed out and forma'd frame back to the first possible level" - which RNG never actually displays skill, only luck and "i can waste a lot of time to do this" - which is why a lot of people (like me) enjoy being able to trade most items. Although a big part of the Free to Play, Warframe as a game is more than just RNG - but the purpose of that RNG is to make us (the players) decide if we'd rather spend money or time to get things. This keeps the playing field level (it's not pay-to-win), but entices some people who would otherwise never once pay a cent to play this game throw in some money and keep the company running.

Totes McGotes agree on the whole "MR" not a good show of skill (more just a show of how much time I spent leveling stuff). That said, I think what the other fellow may have been getting at is a Veteran is someone who has a long experience in a field (at least, in the sense of this game), so it could seem to someone at first glance of your profile here that maybe you haven't been around all that long. Again, at that point it's pretty much just the title of your thread that comes into questions (making it specifically "this is about all the vets"), as opposed to the majority of your thread actually being about the same thing that constantly comes up - "End Game" and "too easy with all my stuff maxed out." I may have a MR of 23 and over 1K hours logged into this game, but the only thing you can tell on the forums is how old the forum account is (2013 in my case) unless a player states otherwise.

7

 

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

19 hours ago, KorbanGado said:

Why be upset that your Ferrari is blowing away all the lawnmowers your racing against? I mean, there's that Dynasty Warriors style power-play fulfillment, where it's one person capable of absolutely annihilating everything, and then there's the challenging fight to the death by the skin of your teeth. I mean, I don't mean to come off nearly as dense or insulting as some of what I say may come off as, but I just don't get it. It's like slapping a v12 into your lawnmower and then being angry that the other lawnmowers got nothing on you - it's still a lawnmower even if you switch down to the old engine (ie. Mechanically the game is the same if you take all those mods that aren't ability augments that change function out). Maybe my disconnect on the whole "want to be super powerful but not feel super powerful" isn't something that can just be explained to me?

See, they added reduced power usage and CC lock-downs in the forms of nullifiers - and we all know how much (almost everyone) abo@#&*ely abhors their existence. We'll probably see a similar reaction when the Eximus units above level 50 (or whatever it was, I don't recall) start spawning with invulnerability through the weakpoint system they showed off on the one devstream. As for the tactics, they have been talking about making a "mid-boss" tier of guy who helps pump up the fodder - because the fodder is still an important part of this game to make a player feel powerful (and is largely my favorite part of the game, when it feels like someone spilled Guyver into Dynasty Warriors). Have you tried the Trials at all? I doubt the enemies AI is different at all, but perhaps the puzzle/challenge route would be the way to go?

What's "End Game" mean to you - it's an important distinction that needs to be included anytime it comes up imo. Also, again, simply saying "Give me end game" isn't helpful either - throw in some examples of what you think might be a good way of dealing with it. Right now, the only thing you have listed on there is "give me a new RNG grind that I can do that will so brokenly overpower my warframe the game won't be fun unless I enjoy feeling like I'm on a power trip as though I took my fully maxed out and forma'd frame back to the first possible level" - which RNG never actually displays skill, only luck and "i can waste a lot of time to do this" - which is why a lot of people (like me) enjoy being able to trade most items. Although a big part of the Free to Play, Warframe as a game is more than just RNG - but the purpose of that RNG is to make us (the players) decide if we'd rather spend money or time to get things. This keeps the playing field level (it's not pay-to-win), but entices some people who would otherwise never once pay a cent to play this game throw in some money and keep the company running.

Totes McGotes agree on the whole "MR" not a good show of skill (more just a show of how much time I spent leveling stuff). That said, I think what the other fellow may have been getting at is a Veteran is someone who has a long experience in a field (at least, in the sense of this game), so it could seem to someone at first glance of your profile here that maybe you haven't been around all that long. Again, at that point it's pretty much just the title of your thread that comes into questions (making it specifically "this is about all the vets"), as opposed to the majority of your thread actually being about the same thing that constantly comes up - "End Game" and "too easy with all my stuff maxed out." I may have a MR of 23 and over 1K hours logged into this game, but the only thing you can tell on the forums is how old the forum account is (2013 in my case) unless a player states otherwise.

 

My answer to your question is as simple as I can make it. DE should determine what that endgame is, within the constraints of possibility for them to develop and their own creative vision.

 

If they asked me for my version of a decent endgame is to make a sort of endless mission with not bullet sponges that take 2 years to take down, not troll mechanics that sap away the Warframes abilities, energy etc. but were the enemies that show up have a tactical intelligence to them, (frost has buble take cover and shoot it down from afar, invisibility they can detect you if you aren't careful with it, and so on), give them uniqueness and relevance like special cosmetic and gear drops, take one of the weapons which either won or didn't win the current melee creation event, and place them in a smart hard enemy in the revised endgame scenario that drops it, and uses it meaningfully, not just  shoot at closest enemy Warframe, know the features strengths and weaknesses and recognize where it can be exploited, give them a secondary and melee as well to give them depth of tactics, and fluid strategy to combating Warframes, and not just mastery fodder reskins of older weapons with some stat tweaking.  they have somewhat started doing this with some Grineer enemies, expand and refine it further, as these  Smart Tactical Enemies can be given deeper lore than Grineer or Corpus grunt worker, they can be part of a deeper system or quest related narrative making them hallmarks of the factions, like Glem and Darvo for example.

 

 About the overpowered Warframes that would be the result of adding something extra after putting in the effort isn't any different than adding a Reactor or Forma or Exilus Adapter, it just means you geared you Warframe further so it can go further, it can be bigger and badder.  what I dream of is Umbra-like Warframes, these are not new frames but the Warframes that are mixed between the present Tenno and or Orokin tech ( Regular and Primes) fused with other  alien tech (sentient or a new Race) that increases their mod slots power strength, range, duration, armor, health, energy, etc...  as well as becoming optional cosmetic choice  for the frame were you can get the bonuses from this upgrade I'll call for arguments sale "Umbra Engine". If properly accounted for, this wouldn't break the game. 

 

If you or DE don't like my idea its fine I will enjoy this game until I can't enjoy playing it anymore, I'll move on until the new updates come, I just felt I should share what I want for the game, if its the same old thing others are posting and you don't particularly think it's needed that is fine too. I never expected DE to drop everything on my whim of End Game, but you also miss the fact that just because you are content with the current state of non-existent end game doesn't mean we should not ask for it. DE will make the final decision, however,  if I don't speak up I can't complain if what I want is never implemented, especially if it's something that can potentially make the game better. I would honestly put up with a year or more of no new content to see this improvement in the game. And if it becomes a feasible project to undertake, others will say the same.... I believe.....firmly.

 

And for the matter of my recent appearance to the forum, I never until recently needed to talk on the forums, nor felt it necessary as I was loaded with RL and the content of the game. If you want to know I play on Ps4 I am MR 21 because I don't level Archwing at all, I have been playing for 3 years and counting, since the ps4 was released, If DE need to verify my legitimacy as a Veteran player, they can check my account since that information is available to them,  It has been my experience that counter-intuitively people who haven't been playing for longer than 3 months have better ideas than manny people I know to play for far longer than me in both Pc and Consoles,(ideas to improve the game, though admittedly that says more about them as people than them as players), therefore If you put into question the validity of an argument based on things like time spent in forums rather than the quality of the argument, you are the one at a loss.

[KorbanGado]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

If they asked me for my version of a decent endgame is to make a sort of endless mission with not bullet sponges that take 2 years to take down, not troll mechanics that sap away the Warframes abilities, energy etc. but were the enemies that show up have a tactical intelligence to them, (frost has buble take cover and shoot it down from afar, invisibility they can detect you if you aren't careful with it, and so on), give them uniqueness and relevance like special cosmetic and gear drops, take one of the weapons which either won or didn't win the current melee creation event, and place them in a smart hard enemy in the revised endgame scenario that drops it, and uses it meaningfully, not just  shoot at closest enemy Warframe, know the features strengths and weaknesses and recognize where it can be exploited, give them a secondary and melee as well to give them depth of tactics, and fluid strategy to combating Warframes, and not just mastery fodder reskins of older weapons with some stat tweaking.  they have somewhat started doing this with some Grineer enemies, expand and refine it further, as these  Smart Tactical Enemies can be given deeper lore than Grineer or Corpus grunt worker, they can be part of a deeper system or quest related narrative making them hallmarks of the factions, like Glem and Darvo for example.

So if they don't out-right deny our warframe abilities while also not being bullet sponges, what stops them from going down from the normal "cheese" that would otherwise make them fodder? This is where the whole 'endgame' thing hinges on. All the tactics in the world don't matter if I can just walk into a room, throw sand in people's eyes and insta-kill them with a knife, or casually stroll by with my number 4 active and watch the room disintegrate around me. Sure, we could have an army of stalkers who just dispel our powers and use people who don't know what they are doing to turn our own ridiculous weapon damage capabilities against us, but at that point it's still one or the other of the above. The only way I could really see that working in a sensible manner is if they essentially took the PvP mechanics concept and made it so you basically never got energy from things and couldn't have energy regen, making your powers a rare thing to use - but even that falls into the deny category to some extent.

I also get the feeling that, at least for your desire, part of this whole vet concept relies on a person being able to potentially get something that other people can never get because they just aren't good enough, or can't spend "2 years" to take on. It's that carrot on a stick, that bragging right of the whole "master race" kinda thing that tends to go around in games - not to say a person shouldn't be rewarded for their hard work, but it's not like anyone here has been bragging about their nightmare-mode Trial completion emblem either. The game has enough power creep as it is. Some of it might be slight, almost preferential changes, but there's enough things that can invalidate other things just by existing as is. The problem with the "Umbra Engine" as a concept is you are saying "Here's this hard content for you to do and be challenged by, and your reward is something that's flat-out better than whatever else is already there." Now, if it was something as easy as just giving you the Umbra skin (for example), then yeah, by all means I'd certainly be fine with that - but as we've seen in this thread already, assuming that new content was already super hard for the people who have maxed out their gears potential with forma and 'taters, giving them a stronger thing would then only make them want even harder content and you would get stuck in the typical MMO raid-gear mentality trap that circles around and around.

When it comes to difficulty for vets, the best way for it to be done would be to make some sort of ranked tourney logic in the Conclave, as the AI is never going to be able to account for the random and innovative (or lucky) things another human player can do. It also gives a perfect place for all the incredible overpowered nature of things to be brought in check and balanced out for a specific group of people who want that kind of challenge. Maybe they'd add a set for forma'd frames, so if a person wanted to they could enter the 10-forma bracket with their Conclave bruiser and fight to the top of the charts to gain access to some sort of cosmetic do-dad that they only get to keep until the winner of the next season de-thrones them. It's actually sort of funny that I'd even be saying that PvP is the answer, considering I don't care for PvP and it sort of got shoe-horned in by popular player demand a long while ago - but that just goes to show you that it might take a while, but DE does look after (i'd wager) the majority of the community as long as you give them time to come up with something that works for them.

And just to be safe, I'm not outright telling you your idea is wrong or crap or anything despite if it comes off that way. I'm just saying that as a community, to be really useful, we gotta dig into this stuff and really figure out on a mechanical sort of level how this stuff would work if you really want DE to look at it and go "you know what, that might be do-able." Think of it as proof of concept, right? We can say "make better AI", but that would be like telling me to build a 10 mile long bridge - sounds easy when you say "build a bridge," then you realize I have know idea how to build a bridge beyond throwing a plank over a small gap, and maybe should have included some instructions.

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

12 hours ago, KorbanGado said:

So if they don't out-right deny our warframe abilities while also not being bullet sponges, what stops them from going down from the normal "cheese" that would otherwise make them fodder? This is where the whole 'endgame' thing hinges on. All the tactics in the world don't matter if I can just walk into a room, throw sand in people's eyes and insta-kill them with a knife, or casually stroll by with my number 4 active and watch the room disintegrate around me.

I also get the feeling that, at least for your desire, part of this whole vet concept relies on a person being able to potentially get something that other people can never get because they just aren't good enough, or can't spend "2 years" to take on.

When it comes to difficulty for vets, the best way for it to be done would be to make some sort of ranked tourney logic in the Conclave, as the AI is never going to be able to account for the random and innovative (or lucky) things another human player can do.

 

 

4

Above I said the concept of smart AI is one in wich the Ai of, lets say Glem and his Goddam Rakatas, He cuz he is Glem gets a status of a lets say heroic therefore has enhancements on his armor that allow him to notice invisible target, a chance and is not like he could alert others of Look guys Ivara is there shoot. but those stealth bonuses and safety nets don't work against him. I understand designing something like this for every Warframe is absurd to make so make specialised hero mobs, Glem Klem and Phlem, the 3 stooges one is good at dealing with Warframe invisibility and has gear that help against them Ex Glem AkIgnis, Glem grakatas and Glem Jat kittag, deadly close quarters powerfull midrange and good kdown potential Melee. Glem detects Invis uses (imagined) AkIgnis if you are close to him, Grakatas if he noticed you from a longer range and If you are at melee distance he jat kittags your head. Therefore a Deeper Layer of difficulty by making heroic units able to deal with Warframe abilities without taking away their use is created, not NULIFYED they are just harder to use arround them. Smart Ai reacting to player has been done, very recently in For Honor (more like No Honor), you can say that Ai is simplistic and different as is the combat system from Warframe, but the concept of attack from above block from above can be translated to: oh detected invisibility exterminate, exterminate.  with coded in strategies that allow the "heroic" Greneer stormtrooper to fight on a more equal standing to the Warframes abilities. to elaborate in a shorter way Klem is a badass Shield popper, snow globe more like glass-wall, Iron skin....nah that's just mud. Klem then would have weapons that can shred those abilities faster like a Ripkas on steroids, Tokors...no w8 AkTonkors and Atomos for secondary, The Phlem can be a sort  of Trinity wannabe using Snipers Shield weapons and the legendary AkNukor, ofcourse I can only use known weapons and this is what I came up with. However, if observed with care weapons can be made and modified to target specific Warframe strengths and weaknesses, unlike the stalker who is an All Warframe Hunter, The factions create their own answer to Warframes by training better troops and making better equipment after all the queen is dead and she must be avenged. ( Corpus would have their own strategies to deal with other frames. DE has shown their ability to use sentient energy weapons in the Valkyr trailer so their depth has been expanded already and we don't know how. I'll reserve my corpus ideas for the moment, also the Grineer are much easier to talk about)

In this case the End Game is always moving forward, not in an unattainable way but on a threat response basis, with this I mean Grineer come get potato---> kill Grineer---->go to void----> get forma----> conquer void---->sentient show up---->get sentient tech or void magick upgrade-----> kill sentient-----> new thingy comes to kill us----> you get the picture by now. the strength of the frames is always increased proportionally by the threat and this doesn't have to be in terms of stats and mechanics alone, Lore has a great deal of potential as well. Also, I understand that such a system may require some major systems tweaks to Warframe, but DE has shown both ingenuity and versatility when it comes to changing the game and I do applaud them for that, especially when they fix what they break

Now for PvP. I like it, though it is not a big focus of mine I do see the appeal, and that is one of the branches of Warframe that keep it with this unclarified endgame, along with Archwing and potentially whatever they have planned for the focus system, these all distract from the base feature of the game giving more alternatives other than to eradicate gigantic armies of mobs. I mean even we who stuck around 3+ years also get tired and want some diversity. The Ai doesn't have to predict the unpredictable to give players a proper challenge, and the possibility of a better system for clan wars or potentially a syndicate war could add the feature of PVP in a specific storyline which may ion turn make PvP more relevant and add the challenge of other players. also who says DE can't hop into the stalker and hunt some Tenno down, his weapons are also a bit outdated ( hate, well scythes in general)  

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by (PS4)Zero_Noctis

[KorbanGado]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_Noctis said:

-snip-

Thanks for the clarification on your use of End Game. Also, have you completed TSD? I haven't seen Stalker using a scythe in a very long time (unless someone hasn't played TSD is in the party).

So, the inter-locking units thing is a neat idea (hopefully none of what I'm saying is coming off as discouraging here, as I always feel like it does). Some of that already exists - The Hyekka units are supposed to be able to detect invisible frames (I question whether they do or not sometimes), any Arctic-type eximus (or the bubble of nullifiers) help protect the enemy units within, and Ancients have their ever-stacking durability buffing auras to crank up nearby teammates. Heck, even the swarm moa's buff friendly units with their bugs. The next question to go with this though, is how do you prevent useless combinations from being spawned in (for example, an anti-invisible Glem when no invisible-capable frame was chosen) or do you just let them spawn in and be useless on the utility front? How do we account for if it spawns in multiple versions of those same guys (like if it spawns in multiple corpus skaters all with that same "can't use your powers" aura)? If we give them super-strong weapons that can tear through a 10K+ HP Snowglobe, how do you make them not insta-down every frame that isn't an invulnerable Valkyr before they even realize what they have on their hands? It's not a terrible idea, but I feel like it needs a lot of work and balancing before it's something that should be put in the game (which is also probably why it's already taking them so long to add in the "elite" units they've mentioned in a few devstreams).
As for the AI part - I've seen the AI in For Honor do plenty of bucket-headed things while I was playing that open beta (I'd love to pick it up sometime, but it feels very much the "play with friends" kind of game), and AI in general is more complex than any coding I've ever done, so I can only assume that it's going to be a long ways out before we get any super-smart drastic changes from what we already have in the game. The other thing that needs to be thought about is how do you implement it in a way that it doesn't change everything. Example: Imagine how different a game we would be playing if, when they finally gave in and implemented PvP balance into the game, they had spread that warframe balancing to all the non-PvP parts of the game? I don't think we'd nearly have the same amount of people crying out about things being too easy when they lost all of the great mods and only had access to the give-take of the Conclave.

If there is one thing I don't want though, it's for PvP to enter the normal PvE part of the game ala Dark Souls. That stupid invasion mechanic there made me quit that game because it was just non-stop PvP in a game that I never felt was supposed to be it. At least thus far here when I get invaded it's a bunch of AI that still feels like it belongs there. If they want to have their "fake PvP" matches like the Index and it's Grineer predecessor I'm fine with it, but let's not make me play against other people unless I want to.

[(PSN)Zero_Noctis]

18 hours ago, KorbanGado said:

Thanks for the clarification on your use of End Game. Also, have you completed TSD? I haven't seen Stalker using a scythe in a very long time (unless someone hasn't played TSD is in the party).

So, the inter-locking units thing is a neat idea (hopefully none of what I'm saying is coming off as discouraging here, as I always feel like it does). Some of that already exists - The Hyekka units are supposed to be able to detect invisible frames (I question whether they do or not sometimes), any Arctic-type eximus (or the bubble of nullifiers) help protect the enemy units within, and Ancients have their ever-stacking durability buffing auras to crank up nearby teammates. Heck, even the swarm moa's buff friendly units with their bugs. The next question to go with this though, is how do you prevent useless combinations from being spawned in (for example, an anti-invisible Glem when no invisible-capable frame was chosen) or do you just let them spawn in and be useless on the utility front? How do we account for if it spawns in multiple versions of those same guys (like if it spawns in multiple corpus skaters all with that same "can't use your powers" aura)? If we give them super-strong weapons that can tear through a 10K+ HP Snowglobe, how do you make them not insta-down every frame that isn't an invulnerable Valkyr before they even realize what they have on their hands? It's not a terrible idea, but I feel like it needs a lot of work and balancing before it's something that should be put in the game (which is also probably why it's already taking them so long to add in the "elite" units they've mentioned in a few devstreams).
As for the AI part - I've seen the AI in For Honor do plenty of bucket-headed things while I was playing that open beta (I'd love to pick it up sometime, but it feels very much the "play with friends" kind of game), and AI in general is more complex than any coding I've ever done, so I can only assume that it's going to be a long ways out before we get any super-smart drastic changes from what we already have in the game. The other thing that needs to be thought about is how do you implement it in a way that it doesn't change everything. Example: Imagine how different a game we would be playing if, when they finally gave in and implemented PvP balance into the game, they had spread that warframe balancing to all the non-PvP parts of the game? I don't think we'd nearly have the same amount of people crying out about things being too easy when they lost all of the great mods and only had access to the give-take of the Conclave.

If there is one thing I don't want though, it's for PvP to enter the normal PvE part of the game ala Dark Souls. That stupid invasion mechanic there made me quit that game because it was just non-stop PvP in a game that I never felt was supposed to be it. At least thus far here when I get invaded it's a bunch of AI that still feels like it belongs there. If they want to have their "fake PvP" matches like the Index and it's Grineer predecessor I'm fine with it, but let's not make me play against other people unless I want to.

 

 

Yes, I played the second dream when it came out, LOVE the War and wish it was better than the Galatine Prime.. oh well. The stalker weapons used by players overall need a buff but the scythes especially have no standing in the game besides I want to play with scythes.

hunters like the Hyekkas have boss mechanics for a slow progressive gameplay, they feel like they have cool  mechanics to deal with for new players to teach them mobility plus aiming and correct element typing is a good strategy. For the infested yea mechanically they have a lot of strength and ill use synergy tentatively here. what they don't have are interesting bosses, killing Lephantis is like beating a dead horse, Phorid is just a bigger charger that needs a rework in both looks and mechanics, Alad V....doesnt count and he isn't interesting to fight ether.....Give the Infested a Sara Kerrigan, an infested sentiment that took control of the swarm and its now a bigger threat than the Grineer and Corpus, make a raid out of killing/freeing/ helping her :).

I was thinking match the Warframe prime lore videos somewhat with the types of counters you place for example the invis block shows up 100%  of the time on missions that start at lvl 40 and are related to spy and rescue, they can show in other maps with lower chances defences and interception like missions its a shield popper mission, but it can still spawn other heroics within the rotations.and at Lvl 100+ the probability the group of them show up together as like an invasion force of...arbitrary number.....is 70% at 110 is 80% 130 is 100% every 5-minute rotation. so lets say you are doing a defense for Kuva (since DE already realized it made no sense having Kuva everywhere else except on the freking KUVA Fortress).  you reached the point where 100% of the time you will be invaded by the 1 or more of the stooges every 5 minutes, and their presence means you cannot extract, so a survival leads to needing to kill these fukers of you want the rewards from the session. these mechanics dont make sence for a mission like spy so they always spawn the invis detect heroic at the objective, with the LVL of the mission determining how many of them are guarding the data, if they detect you they have an alarm button on them so if you get detected early by them its going to be hard to save the info. and so exterminates get flooded with trinity wannaBs

For the PvP its not my main wish to see PvP at the forefront of everyday Warframe missions( even though I love Darksouls and the Invasion mechanic I dont think it would even be a good idea to get player-hunters like in Dark Souls), they can even make it a card game you play in between missions for fun rankings and things like that, make your own deck,... or not just delete PVP 4 all I care.

Edited March 17, 2017 by (PS4)Zero_Noctis