Aura System Discussion 9.1.4 Thread Merger

[lstalri]

Vauban trivializes Infested defense. So? Get back to me again on how well you do in Casta with that rank 0 Vauban, even with Energy SIphon.

The point wasn't that it was a Vauban.  The point was that it was a rank 0 Vauban that could do his job just as well as a rank 30. 

[RealityMachina]

It keeps getting lost in the shuffle because it has no point. It's you pointing to something and saying "look at how OP this is!" without any actual logic behind why it's OP.

This.

 

Hell, it's not like unranked warframes are impossibru to play on higher level zones. I have successfully survived a nightmare level in Pluto using my unranked Frost Prime, and this was before the new aura changes.

 

I just don't call for a Frost Prime (or just Frost in general) nerf because the main reason I can survive with a low level Frost Prime is because I would say I have decent skill with the game, not because Frost is overpowered.

 

EDIT: Hell, I had the advantage of having played people who had Frost in my clan for a while, being able to discuss their strengths and weaknesses. For newer players who may just be using Vauban or Frost or Nyx for the first time without any better knowledge of them, I'm willing to wager they'll F*** up a lot more even with the new auras.

Edited July 17, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Brasten]

Since we're engaging in wild unfounded speculation here, they could also easily introduce new content that practically requires upgrades like this due to raw difficulty.

Considering how they massively buffed the difficulty of just about every system that isn't venus and mercury, this seems more likely than your crazy infinite power creep argument.

*face palm*

And why did DE do a difficulty increase in those areas? Ask yourself the reason. What was the driver there. What was DE seeing in both written and databased feedback? Do you think it could have been the result of adding Forma to the game? Nudging the 'max' of a to an effective 120 mod energy instead of the 60 they had initially tried to balance around?

Power Creep happens. Its happening in weapons, its happen in Warframe powers. The fewer ways power can creep forward the better. DE has then 'balance' for it else where, which usually ends up meaning enemies get a stat padding boost.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Brasten

[Tempera]

By 2200, mod capacity and mod slots on Warframes will approach infinity. The capacity and slots on a Warframe will literally increase faster than you can put mods in them.

By 2321, mod capacity has increased to the point that even supercomputers cannot calculate the numbers without crashing. DE optimizes their code, allowing it to run on the newest iPhone 20mill, but they only release it to the Plat market.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

*face palm*

And why did DE do a difficulty increase in those areas? Ask yourself the reason. What was the driver there. What was DE seeing in both written and databased feedback? Do you think it could have been the result of adding Forma to the game? Nudging the 'max' of a to an effective 120 mod energy instead of the 60 they had initially tried to balance around?

Power Creep happens. Its happening in weapons, its happen in Warframe powers. The few ways power can creep forward the better. DE has then 'balance' for it else where, which usually ends up meaning enemies get a stat padding boost.

Did I dispute that power creep was happening? No. I said that your argument about how power will continue creeping upwards infinitely is crazy.

I said this because it's completely unfounded.

What you said isn't a refutation of what I'm talking about. It's a crazy rant against power creep, even though it's inherent to the concept of changing the metagame at all.

And even then it's still wrong, because the rather obvious reason that DE massively increased levels across half the game is because people - people who I'm now convinced have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to balance, given complaints in this thread and elsewhere - whined about how the game was too easy.

By 2321, mod capacity has increased to the point that even supercomputers cannot calculate the numbers without crashing. DE optimizes their code, allowing it to run on the newest iPhone 20mill, but they only release it to the Plat market.

And then Warframe gained sentience and launched a nuclear strike against its enemies.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Tempera]

Power Creep happens. Its happening in weapons, its happen in Warframe powers. The fewer ways power can creep forward the better. DE has then 'balance' for it else where, which usually ends up meaning enemies get a stat padding boost.

You're edging closer and closer to just outright stating that the devs should not bother changing Warframe from the state it is currently in. Please back away from this argument before this happens.

[lstalri]

It keeps getting lost in the shuffle because it has no point. It's you pointing to something and saying "look at how OP this is!" without any actual logic behind why it's OP.

If you can't figure out the logic behind why a level 0 warframe is capable of fulfilling the same roll as a level 30 is OP, then that's your own downfall and I feel no need to debate with you since it would lead absolutely nowhere. 

 

Hell, by that line of logic, lets replace the charge mechanic for Ogris with that of the Supra and Gorgan.  Hell, lets give it the clip size of the supra as well, and then give it the damage and damage type of the Lanka, both past and present.  Yeah! That's a great idea! (that last part was sarcasm, and if you can't figure out why this suggestion is a major issue, then I pray for you). 

 

Hell, it's not like unranked warframes are impossibru to play on higher level zones. I have successfully survived a nightmare level in Pluto using my unranked Frost Prime, and this was before the new aura changes.

Please make note of the huge difference between one carrying ones team (what I did with the vaub) and one getting carried by ones team (what you did on pluto).  You did not fill in any major roles that would have left the mission to have failed with your frost at rank 0.  I did, and that's why it's such a big problem. 

[Tempera]

And then Warframe gained sentience and launched a nuclear strike against its enemies.

In a desperate move, the players of Warframe pooled their combined funds together and send Kyle Reese back in time, with one mission: Protect Sarah Connor.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

If you can't figure out the logic behind why a level 0 warframe is capable of fulfilling the same roll as a level 30 is OP, then that's your own downfall and I feel no need to debate with you since it would lead absolutely nowhere.

Oh no, I can understand the logic behind it. I just think the logic behind it is wrong, with you being unable to provide a rationale that isn't wrong.

Because all Vauban needs in an infested defense is bastille to carry his team. Everything else - shields, flow, etc etc etc just makes it easier. So while it's not an unranked vauban carrying the team, I don't see the fundamental difference in logic between a rank 5 Vauban fulfilling the same role as a level 30 Vauban and a rank 0 Vauban fulfilling the same role as a level 30 Vauban.

 

Please make note of the huge difference between one carrying ones team (what I did with the vaub) and one getting carried by ones team (what you did on pluto).  You did not fill in any major roles that would have left the mission to have failed with your frost at rank 0.  I did, and that's why it's such a big problem.

You know, when U9 dropped, I did a nightmare pluto mission with a level 1 mag. Solo. Mag OP nerf Mag? Or is it that maybe I'm just a skilled player who the game shouldn't be balanced around? Because let me tell you, if the game is balanced around no-lifers like me, guys who've been playing shooters since Wolfenstein 3d, the casuals are going to feel like they're getting punched in the $&*^ every time they boot up the game.

I mean, we've already had new players talking about how hard the game is in U9.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Brasten]

You're edging closer and closer to just outright stating that the devs should not bother changing Warframe from the state it is currently in. Please back away from this argument before this happens.

So when should DE stop changing the game? If power creep won't happen infinitely as Cpl_Facehugger is trying to say, then at some point the game will stop changing. There will stop being a 'forward' drive. Unless DE should keep that forward progression, at which point there will be infinite power creep.

This is a progression based game. Power Creep will happen, it will keep happening until DE decides to make Warframe 2 and reset the baseline. The problem becomes the rate at which that happens. The way Auras are setup is very easily abused vehicle for rather quick escalation if DE gets sloppy.

If DE wants to move the total capacity of warframes up, then they should do it directly and with forethought and planning. Letting Aura be that system just means those increase will happen haphazardly and without as much investigation into the impact on play.

Ya'll are dismissing that Rank 0 Vauban example, but it highlights ever last point about power creep going on. From Mod energy to powers.

[RealityMachina]

 

Please make note of the huge difference between one carrying ones team (what I did with the vaub) and one getting carried by ones team (what you did on pluto).  You did not fill in any major roles that would have left the mission to have failed with your frost at rank 0.  I did, and that's why it's such a big problem. 

The problem is that you're trying to say this while the image you shown us demonstrate you didn't have any offensive powers equipped for the vauban.

 

IE for all we know that damage you dealt was due to you carrying a level 30 ogris with the match for you. In which case the cause for you carrying isn't exactly entirely due to the aura system.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

So when should DE stop changing the game? If power creep won't happen infinitely as Cpl_Facehugger is trying to say, then at some point the game will stop changing.

Yes, which is called "Warframe 2 is released."

Fact is, your entire argument here is a slippery slope fallacy. It's logically invalid because it's rooted in faulty reasoning. It's the same logical framework that drove people to say "allowing interracial marriage is the first step on the road to legalized bestiality and incest!" and other such incorrect arguments.

[SirAuron]

In the end, they are going to add more mods that people want but cannot fit. then there are going to be so many options that cannot fit.

[Tempera]

So when should DE stop changing the game? If power creep won't happen infinitely as Cpl_Facehugger is trying to say, then at some point the game will stop changing. There will stop being a 'forward' drive. Unless DE should keep that forward progression, at which point there will be infinite power creep.

Or DE can implement sideways drive- i.e. adding in things that give you extra options, without contributing to power escalation.

 

But wait- that'll never happen, because people on the forum keep crying about how Warframe is too easy.

 

Okay, you know what; let's break this down.

 

I have a Level 29 Saryn, so I'll use her as an example.

 

A Level 30 Warframe, at base, has 30 mod capacity. If I potato that warframe, that base mod capacity increases to 60. This 60 base mod capacity is supposed to apply over ten mod slots.

 

If you then Forma Saryn, let's say, five times (four times to give her unpolarized slots a polarization, and then one time to change one of her = polarities, because Contagion is useless), you then have an effective mod capacity of 120, across 10 slots; or, an average of 12 mod capacity per warframe slot.

 

If you then have a maxed Aura Mod, this adds +18 mod capacity, giving you 138 total potential mod capacity- or, an average of 13.8 mod capacity per mod slot.

 

Let's compare this to my current favourite weapon: the Snipertron Vandal.

 

At base Rank 30, you have a mod capacity of 30, spread across 8 mod slots.

 

If you then potato said weapon (luckily, it came pre-potatoed), you have an effective capacity of 60, spread across 8 mod slots.

 

If you then Forma the Snipertron Vandal equal to Saryn- five Forma's- leading to six polarities, or an effective capacity of, uh, 105, spread across 8 mod slots. This is the equivalent of 13.125 mod capacity per mod slot.

 

So, pre-Aura Mods, Warframes had an effective mod capacity of 12 across all mod slots (assuming four or greater Forma's), while weapons had an effective mod capacity of 13.125 mod capacity per mod slot.

 

Now, post-Aura Mods, Warframes have an effective mod capacity of 13.8 across all mod slots (assuming four or greater Forma's), while weapons have an effective mod capacity of 13.125 per mod slot.

 

Well, then, how many mods actually are there?

 

Well, for Warframes, there are 28 base mods, plus 4 additional ability mods for each Warframe.

 

For weapons, there are between 17-19 mods per weapon.

 

So, by endgame (which is the only point that actually matters, as you're not likely to have a maxed Aura mod long before end game), there's an effective pool of 138 mod capacity for Warframes, spread across ten mod slots, with thirty-two mods for a given Warframe to choose from. And for weapons (excluding the Snipertron Vandal and other pre-polarized weapons), there's an effective pool of 97.5 mod capacity, spread across eight mod slots, with between seventeen and nineteen mods per weapon.

 

So... does that seem particularly imbalanced to you?

[lstalri]

Oh no, I can understand the logic behind it. I just think the logic behind it is wrong, with you being unable to provide a rationale that isn't wrong.

Because all Vauban needs in an infested defense is bastille to carry his team. Everything else - shields, flow, etc etc etc just makes it easier. So while it's not an unranked vauban carrying the team, I don't see the fundamental difference in logic between a rank 5 Vauban fulfilling the same role as a level 30 Vauban and a rank 0 Vauban fulfilling the same role as a level 30 Vauban.

I'm fairly certain that those mods are required to keep bastille up 24/7 with energy siphons alone, which means your vaub would have to be lvl 7 at min. Doing it with a lvl 0, seriously, you call that balanced? A lvl 0 being equal to a lvl 7? With absolutely no work? Lets just shift these numbers to the other end of the scale: a lvl 23 being equal to a lvl 30? And that's with potato's. Without potato's, that's a level 16 frame doing just the same as a level 30... yeah...

You know, when U9 dropped, I did a nightmare pluto mission with a level 1 mag. Solo. Mag OP nerf Mag? Or is it that maybe I'm just a skilled player who the game shouldn't be balanced around? Because let me tell you, if the game is balanced around no-lifers like me, guys who've been playing shooters since Wolfenstein 3d, the casuals are going to feel like they're getting punched in the $&*^ every time they boot up the game.

I mean, we've already had new players talking about how hard the game is in U9.

Nightmare missions:

A) are not as hard as you may claim

B) are not reliant on a certain set of classes to circumvent failure

C) grats, you have discovered the boltor, well modded grakata, supra, hek, snipetron (vandal), lanka, kunai, despair, hikou, acrid, ogris, flux rifle, dread, hell even paris could do that (EDIT: I forgot to mention Latron and Latron prime (mostly because I actually hate them)). That was not a frame specific feat, that was an overall feat, one that could have easily be achieved by a rank 0 frame and any one of those somewhat half-&#!'d modded weapons.

EDIT: (oh yeah, and I've done it, so it's not like I'm theory crafting or anything, I'm speaking from experience :3)

 

The problem is that you're trying to say this while the image you shown us demonstrate you didn't have any offensive powers equipped for the vauban.

IE for all we know that damage you dealt was due to you carrying a level 30 ogris with the match for you. In which case the cause for you carrying isn't exactly entirely due to the aura system.

For the record, if you actually looked at any of the images that were simply links and not embedded into the post, you'd recognize I had a rank 11 torid on. And before you go off saying "damage numbers are broken" yeah, we know, I clearly did not do all the damage in that game. Obvious bugs are obvious, thanks.

Dealing damage does not mean you carried the game to victory. Sure, it's one way of doing it, but there are other roles outside of damage that are incredibly important for a missions success. High level defense quite often either needs insane amounts of damage, crowd control, and AoE defensive abilities (ie: bastille, snow globe, etc.). The fact that at rank 0 I was capable of fulfilling the role so well that the rest of the team didn't have to do anything (except for get kills to actually move the game along) is what's unbalanced. Taking out the aura system and I would've had to be at least lvl 7 to have even attempted this.

Edited July 17, 2013 by lstalri

[Tempera]

The fact that at rank 0 I was capable of fulfilling the role so well that the rest of the team didn't have to do anything (except for get kills to actually move the game along) is what's unbalanced.  Taking out the aura system and I would've had to be at least lvl 7 to have even attempted this. 

Okay, question: Why would you call that imbalanced?

 

The rank of a given Warframe/Weapon represents the amount of experience you have with it- or, the amount of effort you have invested into that Warframe to get it to that point.

 

In order to get your mod capacity high enough to do things like that, you need to have a high-ranked Aura Mod. This Aura Mod represents the exact same thing; that you have invested enough effort into it to get it to that point.

 

The actual rank of the Warframe, well, who gives a stuff if it's 0 or 7 if you've invested enough effort into the build to be able to install those mods?

[SirAuron]

All this over 14 points...Sad.

[Brasten]

All this over 14 points...Sad.

It is over a mechanic and what can result from it.

And yet no one in favor of it has answered me the question.

How much mod energy is enough. Where is your line?

Put it in numbers.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Brasten

[RealityMachina]

How much mod energy is enough. Where is your line?

I'll know it when I see it because mod energy doesn't exist in a vacuum devoid of other variables.

[Tulzscha]

The point wasn't that it was a Vauban.  The point was that it was a rank 0 Vauban that could do his job just as well as a rank 30. 

 

The screenshot was taken in an Infested defense mission. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear:

 

Vauban trivializes Infested defense. So? Get back to me again on how well you do in Casta with that rank 0 Vauban, even with Energy SIphon.

 

"do his job just as well as a rank 30" - in Casta? You'd have to be a god among men with your super pro L337 skillze, because good luck surviving past wave 5 with lvl 60 Grineer Lancers annihilating your squishy lvl 0 Vauban, shooting the core from all sides, because you don't have any shield/health mods or Tesla to hold them at bay.

[Orthusaku]

My god...

 

Cryers everywhere

 

"DE now the auras drain mod capacity? WTF you did?"

 

"DE now the auras give mod capacity? WTF you did?"

 

Seriously guys, make up your mind. Now the system encourages to use auras. 14 more points are not that gamebreaking and help new players to leave mercury-venus-earth a little faster.

 

So the old system was just objectively worse? How so? You had to choose to either use all maxed mods or lose one so you could use a Group based Mod that sounds perfectly balanced to me.

[Einsig_SV]

My god...

 

Cryers everywhere

 

"DE now the auras drain mod capacity? WTF you did?"

 

"DE now the auras give mod capacity? WTF you did?"

 

Seriously guys, make up your mind. Now the system encourages to use auras. 14 more points are not that gamebreaking and help new players to leave mercury-venus-earth a little faster.

 

DIFFERENT PEOPLE. DIFFERENT OPINIONS. Are the forums some kind of gestalt hive consciousness?!

 

The people who were fine with the way the auras were before almost universally did not speak on it. Or they gave rather light criticism but were mostly okay with it in principle, so they didn't make lots of noise over it.

 

Now that auras are pandering to the lowest common denominator and the entire reason for putting in the mod system is nulled, the people who liked it the way it was are angry, and justifiably angry. DE put out a slightly flawed system which pissed off all the whining twats, had a kneejerk reaction, and now all the people who actually kept a level head and gave reasonable criticism are pissed off.

 

All DE had to do to remedy this situation was remove slot polarity and reduce the max point cost of auras to 5. That's it. Whining cured, the system is balanced for all, and everyone is happy. Now this system has made every single player outraged at one point or another, because DE can't find a decent middle ground.

[Winterbraid]

It is over a mechanic and what can result from it.

And yet no one in favor of it has answered me the question.

How much mod energy is enough. Where is your line?

Put it in numbers.

Enough mod energy is when you can put every mod you could ever possibly want, at maximum rank, in your frame. That is, Flow, Focus, Streamline, Continuity, Stretch, Redirection, Vitality, Steel Fiber.

Flow - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Focus - 11 cost, 6 with Forma.

Streamline - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Continuity - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Stretch - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Redirection - 14 cost, 7 with Forma.

Vitality - 12 cost, 6 with Forma.

Steel Fiber - 14 cost, 7 with Forma.

5 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 7 + 6 + 7 = 46

With every slot Formed, that's 46 capacity, out of 60. Leaving you a whopping 14 for two abilities of your choice, which is more than enough. Or swap out Steel Fiber (which is of questionable use, I just put it in the equation because of its high cost so anything else will not raise the cost) for a third ability.

So the line had already been crossed long before Auras. Auras have changed nothing about the balance of the game.

It just takes shorter to get there now, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view. If you want to feel "elite" and watch new players struggle and fall as they try to reach your level, it's a bad thing. From my point of view it's a good thing because it means leveling new frames is less of a pain and I can spend less time grinding and more time actually playing the game.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Excitonex]

Enough mod energy is when you can put every mod you could ever possibly want, at maximum rank, in your frame. That is, Flow, Focus, Streamline, Continuity, Stretch, Redirection, Vitality, Steel Fiber.

Flow - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Focus - 11 cost, 6 with Forma.

Streamline - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Continuity - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Stretch - 9 cost, 5 with Forma.

Redirection - 14 cost, 7 with Forma.

Vitality - 12 cost, 6 with Forma.

Steel Fiber - 14 cost, 7 with Forma.

5 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 7 + 6 + 7 = 46

With every slot Formed, that's 46 capacity, out of 60. Leaving you a whopping 14 for two abilities of your choice, which is more than enough. Or swap out Steel Fiber (which is of questionable use, I just put it in the equation because of its high cost so anything else will not raise the cost) for a third ability.

So the line had already been crossed long before Auras. Auras have changed nothing about the balance of the game.

It just takes shorter to get there now, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your point of view. If you want to feel "elite" and watch new players struggle and fall as they try to reach your level, it's a bad thing. From my point of view it's a good thing because it means leveling new frames is less of a pain and I can spend less time grinding and more time actually playing the game.

Your build is bad and you should feel bad. The new aura system helps free players use less forma and rely less on those potato alerts. It doesn't do anything on the high end because of forma. I think this is a good move.

[LazyKnight]

Your build is bad and you should feel bad. The new aura system helps free players use less forma and rely less on those potato alerts. It doesn't do anything on the high end because of forma. I think this is a good move.

I could careless if I get 14 more slots or not why? I will still stick in as many forma as I need to get max power anyway power creep is MOOT. People who do not want the new aura buff are just people that want a Korean grinder. Vindictus is bleeding red ink because they made is such a grind it made only hardcore player left and doesn't matter if people like that game its only a matter of time before they shut it off. I want DE to cut the free to play people a lot more slack and this aura buff lets people use 30 slots builds now.