Aura System Discussion 9.1.4 Thread Merger

[WARGAMES]

I had a post else where but if this is a giant thread I'll put it here as well. this was about tweaking auras to do more and be more specific. mostly the weaker auras how ever.

 

Let's look at what we have to work with.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Aura

 

the useful auras tend to be as follows, in no particular order:

energy siphon

corrosive projection

rifle amp

enemy radar

 

the not very useful auras tend to be:

steel charge

rejuvenation

infestation impedance

 

the  auras that have very little use at all, or so I may believe:

physique

scavengers(pistol, rifle, shotgun, sniper)

shield disruption

 

the useful auras tend to be decent as they are for what they are for. rifle amp was nerfed with good reasons where 45% x4 = 180% could become for all primary weapons

 

rejuvenation adds hp regeneration, but it could use something to reduce poison damage you take.

 

steel charge could be better and possibly have other effects that don't add onto charge damage or speed, such as crit rate, enhanced stealth attack damage, execution attack damage increase and wall attack damage. 

 

infestation impedance is useful if you want infestation to be unable to chase you, but it may work better in a x meter area around all 4 players to prevent super slow infestation from coming out towards their target.

 

physique raises hp of the whole team, but it feels lack luster for an aura. perhaps it could have special properties such as: knock down resistance, stagger resistance and maybe stamina effects.

 

shield disruption doesn't feel it'll enhance much unless you had enemies with 5000 shields or more. perhaps it could cause damage done to enemies with shields to damage their hp directly like a feed back damaging their internal systems. more shields until they go down? more bonus damage directly to their hp.

 

 

I made a post before but it's in a gigantic hotfix thread so I'll bring it here for the scavenger aura idea.

 

perhaps scavengers could have been specialization auras boosting the ammo drop but various other tweaks to enhance shotguns, sniper weapons, rifles and pistols in more ways. perhaps have it affect reload times, ammo capacity, fire rate and damage by small flat amounts and a percent. 

 

let's say sniper scavenger with 5 ranks:

boost ammo gain by 1 every rank(5 at 5).

boost ammo drop rate by 30% per rank(150% at 5).

boost damage by 2 per rank(10 at 5), 3% per rank(15% at 5) or just a percent for snipers

lower reload time by .075 per rank(0.375 at 5). or a percent

increase fire rate by .05(0.25 at 5) or a percent

one idea is perhaps since puncture mods still suck &#!, that specialization could raise puncture range.

 

this would allow some serious specialization for a team of snipers if they chose to do so. the reason for flat boost to damage is for lower damage rifle or pistol scavenger. but percents could be the way to do that. this would make rifle amp kind of null and void but as is the scavengers aren't really worth using nor auras in general to tempt most from making combinations of auras outside of energy siphon x4.  also yes, this might make rifle amp need to be changed or have other additional effects to stand out away from weapon specializationauras.

 

the scavenger auras are the main ones that could use something  to make them stand out, and the specialization weapon-type aurasounds more interesting to me.

 

but these are just ideas so you wouldn't just think "energy siphon..." and would actually wonder what you'd wanna use during this mission. perhaps there's lots of knockdown and you want physique  for hp and resistance to stagger and knockdown . maybe you'll want weapon specialization because it's a big or small map to snipe or use that sobek. perhaps there's heavily shielded wave 40 moas coming and you feel so glad you picked shield disruption lower shields and to damage their hp while you whittle their shields down. maybe it's a melee weapon exp farm party and everyone wants steel charge. what about an infestation mission where infested impedance and rejuvenation could help hold you up longer?

 

problematic to make, edit or not.  just seems to make for more of a variety to branch out away from energy siphon x4 or at least allow future buffing to punish them for being only ability spam orientated instead of trying more aura enhancements. 

[Orthusaku]

"Wait and see" I said it, devs said it and that's that. This system is going no where and you'll just have to deal with it.

 

whining worked when auras took mod points

[SirAuron]

Come to think of it, all I ever saw was whining and maybe one thread all for it. Don't think i ever saw more than 2 or 3 people praising that system.

 

And now I see a few people hating and another few expressing concerns and everyone else praising this system.

Edited July 18, 2013 by SirAuron

[Orthusaku]

Come to think of it, all I ever saw was whining and maybe one thread all for it. Don't think i ever saw more than 2 or 3 people praising that system.

 

And now I see a few people hating and another few expressing concerns and everyone else praising this system.

 

Well this thread did make it to page 33.

[Niftylen]

Come to think of it, all I ever saw was whining and maybe one thread all for it. Don't think i ever saw more than 2 or 3 people praising that system.

 

And now I see a few people hating and another few expressing concerns and everyone else praising this system.

Just because most people think it's great doesn't mean it is, that's the problem, Warframe has gained so many players over the past 2 months or so, for them, these changes probably have nothing but a positive effect, which is fine, however, they don't really have a place to shoot down those who are expressing concerns about it. Most gamers play things like League of Legends, CoD and Angry Birds, I don't really want the hive-mind of fast-food gamers dictating the future of Warframe too, because it will mean it goes like this: 'whine for buffs, DE buffs until OP', rinse and repeat until the power creep is painful...

[TacoMender]

'It's painful to read all these forum posts from smug kids who will probably put very little time/money into this game, whilst all the more hardcore players who have been around since the get-go, who have invested countless hours and bought founder, and who actually have something intelligent to say about the state of the game, are flamed... When rational people get overwhelmingly scorned for calmly suggesting the game has become too easy, you know something is dreadfully wrong...'

 

Copy pasta this from youtube, This Guy.... 

[MJ12]

'It's painful to read all these forum posts from smug kids who will probably put very little time/money into this game, whilst all the more hardcore players who have been around since the get-go, who have invested countless hours and bought founder, and who actually have something intelligent to say about the state of the game, are flamed... When rational people get overwhelmingly scorned for calmly suggesting the game has become too easy, you know something is dreadfully wrong...'

 

Copy pasta this from youtube, This Guy.... 

 

Says the member from July 8 with no founder's badge. These people have spent hundreds of hours in a game and think it's too easy. You know what other games are too easy after you spend hundreds of hours in them?

 

Devil May Cry. Bayonetta. Vanquish, probably. You know, 'hard games'. So yes, they've invested countless hours and said the game has become too easy. Okay, and this is a flaw how? You can't have infinite scaling difficulty, because at some point something will break.

[SirAuron]

Well this thread did make it to page 33.

Over the same people arguing.

[FunkyEntropy]

People whine about introduction of new aura system because it it makes their 5 forma & potatoed frames too powerful.

 

Problem:  If your frame already has had 4~5 forma and a potato attached, that +14 energy is going to be surplus since you reached that frames max potential a while ago.

 

Conclusion:  People aren't whining because the aura system makes their frame more powerful, they're whining because what this change does is lessen the distance between a newbies bare-bones frame and their uber-frame.

[SirAuron]

Just because most people think it's great doesn't mean it is, that's the problem, Warframe has gained so many players over the past 2 months or so, for them, these changes probably have nothing but a positive effect, which is fine, however, they don't really have a place to shoot down those who are expressing concerns about it. Most gamers play things like League of Legends, CoD and Angry Birds, I don't really want the hive-mind of fast-food gamers dictating the future of Warframe too, because it will mean it goes like this: 'whine for buffs, DE buffs until OP', rinse and repeat until the power creep is painful...

Or maybe you're not thinking about nightmare mode which is what the devs stated it was for. Not everyone wants to use forma win nightmare mode in the future or now. You have your nightmare mode, play it. Nightmare shall negate all power creep.

 

And even if it wasn't intended for nightmare, 14 points won't break the game. If the power creep does not happen then y'all made a big deal over this for nothing. Seems very few are concerned over power creep and the majority is in favor of the 14 extras points. In the end, the majority wins. That's life and that's more satisfied customers.

 

So wait and see what happens before whining about "power creep".

 

Oh and that post you quoted in response to someone.

[LazyKnight]

Says the member from July 8 with no founder's badge. These people have spent hundreds of hours in a game and think it's too easy. You know what other games are too easy after you spend hundreds of hours in them?

 

Devil May Cry. Bayonetta. Vanquish, probably. You know, 'hard games'. So yes, they've invested countless hours and said the game has become too easy. Okay, and this is a flaw how? You can't have infinite scaling difficulty, because at some point something will break.

I do not think ninja gaiden is hard for the same reason you mention I memorized all the movements.

 

The same people are the ones that like a Korean grinder and then will wonder why the game will die later due unprofitability. Do not argue with them some people think getting one part of gear after spending a year of farming is too easy.

[SirAuron]

People whine about introduction of new aura system because it it makes their 5 forma & potatoed frames too powerful.

 

Problem:  If your frame already has had 4~5 forma and a potato attached, that +14 energy is going to be surplus since you reached that frames max potential a while ago.

 

Conclusion:  People aren't whining because the aura system makes their frame more powerful, they're whining because what this change does is lessen the distance between a newbies bare-bones frame and their uber-frame.

Elitist don't like other players touching their stuff until they climb Mount Everest with one hand.

[MECT_HET]

So many whining and crying people... Bad polarization on the Volt, so sad... If you remember the aura now is boosting you insted of penalizing. So why do complaining?

[reXXer]

Hello newly merged thread,

 

I've posted a couple of times about this issue already in two separate threads. Seeing as this is a merged version of some, not all threads discussing the matter at hand, I'll post here. However if you don't see the context of certain things I am about to talk about, please keep in mind I am referencing other material as well.

 

So, the other day I issued this challenge regarding the motivation for the Aura buff: "And for what?!" ; I'd like to believe some people got the idea I was going for there and from what I've read I can see that some did indeed. For those that have chosen to ignore this challenge or simply have not read it, I shall explain my reasoning.

 

Why was the Aura system changed?

Because of a certain vocal majority of people being against the introduction of another mod slot costing mod energy out of their builds. Some choose to call this an "uproar", "negative backlash" or "negative feedback", which are all reasonable terms.

 

While we're on the subject, why are some people displeased with the Aura system buff?

Because they've already put work into getting extra mod energy for their builds, which energy is now sitting there as an entirely useless one or two digit number.

 

Now these are obviously two sides of the same coin. The main difference here is that one is about being upset with having to put more time and energy into refinement using game mechanics already in place, while the other is about being upset with already having put more time and energy into refinement using those very same mechanics. That refinement already executed is now utterly useless and there are no game mechanics here or on the horizon that promise to usefully soak up that wasted extra mod energy. Also, the second side of the coin does not refer only to refinements made after the Aura system but also to the cases of certain Prime warframe builds (which come with extra polarity slots already) or those zany caster-only builds (that don't use that much mod energy) which could now have been completed with no forma polarization whatsoever. So, everyone is upset about their builds being screwed up.

 

I return again to the difference between the two sides of the coin. The side that aired their displeasure first represents a side upset with potential effort, while the side that is airing their displeasure now is upset with effort already wasted. Now again, I'd like to believe that some people see where I'm going with this but let me add some more kindling. The side that was upset with potential effort is now posting smug .gif-s and .jpeg-s as well as directly insulting certain members of the side that have actually put in that effort. Now I did not expect empathy or respect, certainly not on a forum, but I hope we can all agree that empathy towards someone that not only understands your plight, but has actually gone through it instead of you... should be the social norm in an ideal, civilized society.

 

In closing, I'd like to thank all of the people that have accused me or other people on my side of the argument of QQ-ing and being mentally $&*&*#(%&. Specifically I am thanking them for the endless source of amusing hypocrisy that has more than made up for the time and effort I've wasted forma-ing my warframes! You guys cracked me up! : D

Edited July 18, 2013 by reXXer

[Tempera]

The side that was upset with potential effort is now posting smug .gif-s and .jpeg-s as well as directly insulting certain members of the side that have actually put in that effort. Now I did not expect empathy or respect, certainly not on a forum, but I hope we can all agree that empathy towards someone that not only understands your plight, but has actually gone through it instead of you... should be the social norm in an ideal, civilized society.

 

In closing, I'd like to thank all of the people that have accused me or other people on my side of the argument of QQ-ing and being mentally $&*&*#(%&. Specifically I am thanking them for the endless source of amusing hypocrisy that has more than made up for the time and effort I've wasted forma-ing my warframes! You guys cracked me up! : D

Both sides have been pretty awful with the smug attitudes.

 

Going just back to page 26 (four times cycling back as many pages as I can), I've found people belittling each other on both sides.

 

It is too bad the gaming community these days consists only of people who want easymode gameplay. This is why even Warframe now has started catering to idiots, and deleting a perfectly fine system in lieu of something that's simply idiotic.

 

Maybe the developers will get back to their senses. Maybe not.

 

 

The old system was miles better than this new system. It's just the idiotic "we want easymode" crowd on the forums that somehow convinced DE to make a stupid mistake. All we can hope for is they reverse the F*** out of it and stop catering to the "easymode" crowd.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What are you even talking about?

 

Fact: Using an aura in the previous system required you to sacrifice mod points.

 

Fact: Using an aura in this system gains you mod points.

 

The first requires thought.

 

The second caters to a crowd that seems to be incapable of that.

 

The worst part, though, is that with your closing line- "Specifically I am thanking them for the endless source of amusing hypocrisy that has more than made up for the time and effort forma'ing my frames! You guys crack me up! :D", you are guilty of the same hypocrisy you are accusing many posters here of.

[Saenol]

People whine about introduction of new aura system because it it makes their 5 forma & potatoed frames too powerful.

 

Problem:  If your frame already has had 4~5 forma and a potato attached, that +14 energy is going to be surplus since you reached that frames max potential a while ago.

 

Poor grasp of the issue.

 

Frames with 4-5 forma used on them don't become more powerful with this aura change as they could already slot everything they were built to slot.

 

These frames, which are substantial investments in time and effort, are redundant and less flexible now than if they hadn't been polarized as many times.

 

For example, to get the most utility out of some of my frames with this change, I would have to go back and use forma to remove polarizations, and move the frame closer to stock.

 

Conclusion:  People aren't whining because the aura system makes their frame more powerful, they're whining because what this change does is lessen the distance between a newbies bare-bones frame and their uber-frame.

 

Flawed conclusion.

 

Newbies don't benefit from this system very much, and no one is complaining about such a supposed gap being narrowed. A newbie with a bare bones frame does not have rank 5 auras to slot.

 

Or maybe you're not thinking about nightmare mode which is what the devs stated it was for. Not everyone wants to use forma win nightmare mode in the future or now. You have your nightmare mode, play it. Nightmare shall negate all power creep.

 

And even if it wasn't intended for nightmare, 14 points won't break the game. If the power creep does not happen then y'all made a big deal over this for nothing. Seems very few are concerned over power creep and the majority is in favor of the 14 extras points. In the end, the majority wins. That's life and that's more satisfied customers.

 

So wait and see what happens before whining about "power creep".

 

Nightmare mode is power creep. The biggest change is that opponents do more damage.

 

That refinement already executed is now utterly useless and there are no game mechanics here or on the horizon that promise to usefully soak up that wasted extra mod energy. Also, the second side of the coin does not refer only to refinements made after the Aura system but also to the cases of certain Prime warframe builds (which come with extra polarity slots already) or those zany caster-only builds (that don't use that much mod energy) which could now have been completed with no forma polarization whatsoever. So, everyone is upset about their builds being screwed up.

 

Additionally, I'd like to reiterate that not only is such refinement wasted, some times it's now even wasted to negative effect. There are people whose frames are worse because they put the effort into refining them, than if they had never touched them, all due to this unforeseeable change.

[reXXer]

Both sides have been pretty awful with the smug attitudes.

 

(...)

 

The worst part, though, is that with your closing line- "Specifically I am thanking them for the endless source of amusing hypocrisy that has more than made up for the time and effort forma'ing my frames! You guys crack me up! :D", you are guilty of the same hypocrisy you are accusing many posters here of.

 

I can give you the point of both sides being ill mannered without even looking. I tried to keep my post as removed from "me or mine" as I could until the end for that very reason, though it's of course obvious which side I stand on.

 

Regarding my own hypocrisy, I suppose laughing at others while calling for empathy would be hypocritical. Please don't take it personally though, it was a calculated risk and aimed specifically at the smug trolls. : )

[Brasten]

Now these are obviously two sides of the same coin.

There is also a 3rd side (hypercube!) that does not like the way DE using Aura to adjust Mod Energy as a long term method. This side has generally used little to no Forma and see random unplanned growth in player power as a result of this particular Aura based system of Mod Energy growth.

[Drusus]

Just as a point of interest, I've not forma'ed anything to date despite having a chunk of it to leverage.

Why?

Because until Prime and other such frames are stable I didn't see the point. Things are in wild flux from a stability or prediction of investment point of view.

However, I've been against the aura giving mod power choice from day one for several reasons:

1. I believe strongly in opportunity costs mattering for a good game structure. Other people's opinions may vary here, but this is a core of my belief in what makes a good game when any complexity is involved. If you can just 'do everything' with no trade offs, you have a poorer game construct, in my opinion.

2. It meant auras still worked radically differently from all other mods in the system. So much so that the solution required the visual alteration of _every other mod in the game_ just to take a stab at communicating just how they worked differently. From an information communication and consistency point alone, this is just poor.

3. This kind of deploy then re-deploy approach DE has used in response to vocal parties historically has not improved situations for the better. As a Rhino player throughout his changes, for example, it's my analysis that the new rhino skin is insanely overpowered as before, just in a new and exciting way (this is of course, my opinion of it, your views may vary).

4. Many of the arguments initially (and still in some cases) revolve around Energy Siphon being the Aura of choice and why people couldn't just use it with impunity anymore. Fact is, if the Aura to Aura utility is out of whack, it's a totally different problem and has nothing to do with how we slot them. If Aura A is just out right better than Auras B, C, D through Z then people will find the way to use A no matter what. It blurred the debate on the subject and has nothing to do with either system being good or bad.

As Brasten said above, I have no vested interest in preserving some perfect build nor do I regret or lament investment of bought or crafted Forma. Nor am I making elitist claims about the game is too hard or too easy on way or the other.

I advocate that there is a very worthwhile structural goal in ensuring there is always opportunity cost between choices of comparable value, the exact same reason why various weapons have to have different, but equally useful, base values for us to consider using them; because the choice of what kinds of things we bring to the table is supposed to be part of the fun.

The new aura "boost" system, in my point of view, undermines the importance of that worthwhile goal.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Drusus

[LazyKnight]

The new aura "boost" system, in my point of view, undermines the importance of that worthwhile goal.

I am the type of player that will keep basically every combination of mod I can get and swap any and all of them out depending on what I am doing. To me the cost of the mods is irrelevant is how the mods interact with the game that I find interesting. Managing cost is fine but it can be circumvented by forma anyway, I would rather the game be the mods I bring and not what I have to strip out.

Edited July 18, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Drusus]

I am the type of player that will keep basically every combination of mod I can get and swap any and all of them out depending on what I am doing. To me the cost of the mods is irrelevant is how the mods interact with the game that I find interesting. Managing cost is fine but it can be circumvented by forma anyway, I would rather the game be the mods I bring and not what I have to strip out.

Valid counter point if all the mods are equal in costing and valuation.

If they vary in costing and modulation, then the point of that variance in cost is expressly to recognize that some are more powerful and therefore more costly than others. This, by extension, means that we are indeed intended to strip some out if we want to favor the more powerful mods so there is a trade off.

Completely agree with the sentiment of what you state Lazyknight and appreciate the point of view. Problem is, that ship sails the moment they were not all the same base cost in a polarity based system. There is no point to having varied costs and polarities and forma if we are only doing mod slot to mod slot selection.

I'd be just as fine with it the other way, honestly. But that's not how Warframe was structured mechanically if we examine it, no?

[LazyKnight]

Valid counter point if all the mods are equal in costing and valuation.

If they vary in costing and modulation, then the point of that variance in cost is expressly to recognize that some are more powerful and therefore more costly than others. This, by extension, means that we are indeed intended to strip some out if we want to favor the more powerful mods so there is a trade off.

Completely agree with the sentiment of what you state Lazyknight and appreciate the point of view. Problem is, that ship sails the moment they were not all the same base cost in a polarity based system. There is no point to having varied costs and polarities and forma if we are only doing mod slot to mod slot selection.

I'd be just as fine with it the other way, honestly. But that's not how Warframe was structured mechanically if we examine it, no?

The very really problem all games have, is once people figure out what is the min/max build all other are useless. Same thing happen in wow with every rebalance patch and people only experimented for at most 2 weeks before the math professors found every top build. If I were the developer, I would make several new mods that are all highly useful in totally different ways so people couldn't just leave it the same. 

 

Once the Developers decide if they want people to use a single static setup or a variable one, it would likely be the time to talk about if it should be a gameplay mechanic to balance cost. It looks like the current system is in a state of flux and it could be different next week(or patch 10 whenever) with and example of new mods with 14-20 cost at max rank.

Edited July 18, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Orthusaku]

The very really problem all games have, is once people figure out what is the min/max build all other are useless. Same thing happen in wow with every rebalance patch and people only experimented for at most 2 weeks before the math professors found every top build. If I were the developer, I would make several new mods that are all highly useful in totally different ways so people couldn't just leave it the same. 

 

Once the Developers decide if they want people to use a single static setup or a variable one, it would likely be the time to talk about if it should be a gameplay mechanic to balance cost. It looks like the current system is in a state of flux and it could be different next week(or patch 10 whenever) with and example of new mods with 14-20 cost at max rank.

 

 

Solution to min/maxers is uncomperables.

[LazyKnight]

Solution to min/maxers is uncomperables.

Would do you mean? When people figure out they need x y z they will forma till they have the cost gone. What is your point anyway that people should chose health or powers? There are limited mod cards they can't make everyone happy. If you hate aura make topic to remove forma they are 100% interchangeable 14=3 forma given to all player.

Edited July 18, 2013 by LazyKnight

[SirAuron]

Still have to swap out mods for others. Maybe if you didn't polarize everyhting you'd see this.