Aura System Discussion 9.1.4 Thread Merger

[MrHeartless]

And that is the issue, you shoudn't be able to max out your warframe with energy left over.

And that is the point I am trying to make. How could something have any game breaking effect when you could achieve the same before the change was even implemented. It makes it easier to achieve now is all that it does. I still have the worldsof farming to do to max my defensive mods and I am not at all looking forward to that.

[MrHeartless]

I have disproven literally everything you've written. And you continue to ignore it. All I see is contradictory statements "We should give feedback, but dont" and "The system is PERFECT, but they will change it if they need to." And you making a very strong case for why this system is bad without realizing it.

no you havent.

 

Your last 2 or 3 posts directed at me were spent telling me im a this and a that and a turncoat because I acknowledged the concerns of someone other than myself.

Edited July 17, 2013 by MrHeartless

[Brasten]

There is a term in any RPG/Progression style game. "Power Creep".

 

What I do not like about this change is that it is very fast power creep, one could almost say super power creep. Forma themselves were already an issue because they expanded the 'effective' mod energy pool by not quite double. But it was already a predictable cap. Which meant that DE had to work within the bonus of at best 120 Mod Energy. Any new mods designed would need to be balanced inside that range and the constraint of 8 Mod slots (I do count power slots as some powers aren't needed for certain builds).

 

The insidious problem with Power Creep is that it can't be walked back. Once you have something in a new power/meta it stays and eventaully be comes new norm as everything else 'creeps' forward to its relative power. That includes enemies. Warframe already has enemy stat-padding confused with difficulty, power creeping forward with Mod energy and thus future Mods will also mean DE will need to creep enemy stat padding forward as well.

 

If you need proof of how bad Power Creep gets just look at what was happening when the Auras cost energy. DE tried to walk back the "Artifact" system which was basically a 0 Mod energy system. Most folks were not happy with this change, why? Because Power Creep, you can't roll it back.

 

DE should return the Artifacts to 0, neutral, Mod Energy cost. They should also consider returning various Auras to their Pre-U9 power at max rank.

 

======

 

IMO, if DE really wants a limiter on Aura Mods I say make it based on Mastery Rank. Its a part of the game that has little use (outside Clan weapons). Using account Mastery as the Cap for Aura Mod Energy gives folks a progressive goal in gaining Mastery. Currently most Aura Mods max at 7 energy, with 6 energy  being 'on par' with pre-U9 Artifact power. Master Rank 6 is not much to ask to gain 'full power' of Aura. This also lets DE build Auras for 'long term' players with high mastery while keeping a lower end range for people progressing slower.

[Ventias]

What do you mean you people?

arguing and arguing. Ever since update 9 came out, all i see is arguing. At first it was okay to see people's opinions. However, now i see that neither side wants to think about the situation logically, both sides (for the most part, some people are still nice) just want the other side to share their opinion and their opinion only. 

 

Also just like previous people before me stated, half of you dont even argue on the topic, you just attack the individual you are arguing with. 

[SetAbominae]

Well, not a word of that is true in the slightest. All I see from you is someone who can't form a reasonable argument against what I've presented, because you know I'm right. So have resorted to personal attacks instead in a typical internet last-ditch effort.

And yes, in this case I am saying you can't form proper arguments, because this isn't one. And anyone can see that there is no substance in what you wrote, just mudslinging.

As for pulling statistics, I never said it was fact. In fact I said it was an estimate. And I can guarantee it was far closer an estimate than the "Far less than 1%" that it was in response to.

I am neither in favour or against the fix, just to go further in how out of touch with meanings you are.

The point was : You're not trying to give feedback, you're trying to "win" and fling crap at anyone who disagrees with your opinion, maybe you should try to form your arguments in a manner that presents them properly instead of hurling them enveloped in a ball of mud.

Going further, if you want to know my opinion on the matter, I think the aura system was at best, poorly implemented, and I see absolutely no reason why it should exist, if developers wanted us to level those things, or to buff them, they could've done so without adding a needlessly contrived extra slot to the warframe loadout.

As people had pointed out before the aura system was in place, "we should be able to fuse artifacts or something", that was the system I vouched for, not this "get/take points out of your warframe".

 

So, as a whole, I see the aura system as a whole is flawed, it is not about wheter this or the past iteration of it was good, to me it just seems needless tinkering on an aspect of that particular system that was working fine. (as in, having them equipped as artifacts, not the part where siphon>everything)

 

What's more, further down the line, allowing fusion of artifacts while making them a separate thing from mods would make people actually want to do the alerts that give artifacts instead of considering them, for the most part, just filler; as it is right now there's no reason to get a second copy of any of them when you can just throw fusion cores at them.

Edited July 17, 2013 by SetAbominae

[VinceBlood]

Why is everyone upset about this?  Have you stopped to consider the players who don't have potatoes for their Frames?  I'm guessing not, because they need all the mod space they can get.

[Grayfigure]

......I gotta say, this feels like one of those changes that will trivialize content and will require 'rebalancing' (nerfing) down the line.  I know, not a very popular line of thought, but it puts too much work on DE to keep us interested in the game at this rate.  Content was already a little on the quick side to get through, and this change just speeds things up even faster.  

 

That said, I wouldn't want to see it done away with completely, but maybe half the buff we have on the servers right now would be more than enough.  The current buff heightens the ability to nearly cap out most if not all cards in a build.  Add Polarizing on top of that, and we will see an insane boost to 'Frame productivity.  to the point where DE will be struggling to put out content that can actually challenge those types of stats.

[Orthusaku]

Why is everyone upset about this?  Have you stopped to consider the players who don't have potatoes for their Frames?  I'm guessing not, because they need all the mod space they can get.

 

Potatoes can be earned for free, and with trading, it should never be an issue. Now if the aura's only have you energy for non-potatoed frames, than I would have no issues with it.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Orthusaku

[VinceBlood]

You have to balance against the lowest common denominator when introducing new systems.  This system benefits non-reactor warframes WAY more than reactor'd warframes.  This is not a bad thing.  You can't just look at the high end of the spectrum, where everyone is high-damage high-energy high-health and say "OH IT'S TOO STRONG."  Not everyone has an uber-l33t-maxx0r build, so don't act like it.

 

 

 

Potatoes can be earned for free, and with trading, it should never be an issue. Now if the aura's only have you energy for non-potatoed frames, than I would have no issues with it.

 

 

Yes, you can earn them for free, but it's not like the alerts for them happen daily.  There are players without potatoes.  There will always be players without potatoes.  This system benefits them greatly.  Just because you have extra mod space you can't use because you loaded out your frame with Forma doesn't mean the system is bad.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Vince613

[.Monarch]

You're complaining about extra mod space.

 

You people are so god damn ungrateful.

 

I'd say them people are so god damn $&*&*#(%&.

 

I'm sorry if my language is offensive to some, it's just the level of their intelligence never cease to amaze me.

 

It's so freakishly low, all of them should've been in a god damn circus.

 

Yes this new update seems too good to be true.

 

But it's still a good thing.

 

And yes it would be so much simpler if they just revert back to the old Artifact system.

 

But I don't mind the new Aura system as long as it's not taking slots out of my Frame.

[NessOnett]

Think about this logically for a moment.

Warframe is a game. It is a time consuming game. Yet it is a free to play game. To make money they need players to make purchases. Bearing in mind this is still a game, it needs to be engaging and exciting. Good games with replay value have more potential to make more money because they keep their population interested in the long term.

If you hand everyone everything on a silver platter with no variety and no goals there will be no replay value and people will lose interest very fast.

 

So you as a player, decided you wanted max everything on your frame, that's fine, its your choice, to achieve that you could have either farmed it all or bought the forma. One takes less time than the other. Nevertheless the choice was yours.

And if you give everyone so much free mod capacity, they no longer need to buy any formas or potatoes to max everything, so players will stop purchasing them and your business model will fall apart.

 

Currently this game is fun and addictive and that keeps people playing even though there is no pvp and the pinnacle are all self imposed goals. You as an individual have choices on how you want to achieve those goals, you buy or you grind. So, you are claiming that these personal goals that you set are being diminished by a feature that adds something to the landscape. As I told another above, you can still use your frame as you see fit, as was the motivating factor for forma'ing it 5-6 times in the first place.

And once again, if DE gives you everything with no effort, there's no goals to be imposed. You need to neither buy nor grind as you just get it. This feature adds nothing to the landscape, as you yourself have said repeatedly "All of these things could have been gotten already with enough time."

 

Now, back to the point that its a game, a grindy game where you can play for months as a casual and not get very far. The very nature of this is to encourage persons who have not got the time to make purchases so they can advance and those who do have the time can play and achieve the same eventually. Now, if they do not make the game accessible to both new and old, they will lose out on repeat customers and eventually money.

And if you give them the power without purchase than you are cutting off customers from both new and old. Because when even those with little time to commit are still able to achieve 'perfect' status with no effort, there is no incentive for them to spend money.

 

Same way, it is a game, if it is too hard for players they will not stay, let alone fathom waiting two months to get to mastery rank 7 to use the cool sounding gun someone just roflstomped their map with.

And the game wasn't too hard before this system, with artifacts being net 0. DE never had trouble attracting new players, and were growing just fine. In fact, even most new players were saying the game was too easy. Nor does this system make it any easier to get to M7(so some irrelevant information to try and get people on your side).

 

You and others like you made a choice, to purchase or farm, to make your frame the way you wanted it. It is still the way you wanted it, just with extra. You cannot blame the game everytime it implements a newer mechanic that eases up on some of the older systems. If they suddenly reduced mod ranking costs by 25% the older players who have max ranked mods would still complain because of their choice to spend weeks farming xini or pluto. The change would not affect them at all but they would seek to rage about a change not geared towards them at all, but geared towards the longterm sustenance of the game they love.

 

I can blame the game when it makes it needlessly easier if the entirety of the community has been raving for months for it to be harder. And yes, this change is going to affect the longterm sustenance of the game I love, but in a very very negative way if it's allow to continue. And that is the only reason I have a problem with it. If it was about wasting time and resources, I'd be complaining about things like Braton Prime when I have a very loved Braton. I'd be complaining about my sexy Snipetron being obsolete with the new Vandal. But I'm not complaining about those things, because they don't matter. I know that anything I put effort into may suddenly be obsolete and all for naught, and it doesn't matter. THIS does matter, because it's going to kill the game.

 

 

 

 

So yes, that is us thinking about it logically. And logically this system will reduce sales, spurn longevity, and will make players leave this game far faster than they otherwise would.

[IcarusNine]

And that is the issue, you shoudn't be able to max out your warframe with energy left over.

 

max shield mod and max others mods without multiple forma was not possible.

im tired to do math, but it just wasnt.

Multiple formas are a given.

 

Are you arguing that formas and repolarization should not have been implemented?

[VinceBlood]

And if you give everyone so much free mod capacity, they no longer need to buy any formas or potatoes to max everything, so players will stop purchasing them and your business model will fall apart.

 

I stopped reading here.

 

From what I understand, a maxed out Aura will give a high-end of 14 extra mod slots.  That's 7 potatoe'd warframe levels.  That does not even compare to the amount granted by installing a reactor and leveling to 30.

 

The positives outweigh the minuscule negatives of this change.  You know what I can't wait for?  I can't wait to slot an Aura into my newly-built Frost Prime the moment it finishes constructing and having the choice of slotting in my powers at level zero.  You enjoy your bickering and your so-called point making, I'll be having fun and playing the game.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Vince613

[Oranjeboom]

Multiple formas are a given.

 

Are you arguing that formas and repolarization should not have been implemented?

 

You needed 5-6 for max build before

you need 2-3 for max build now

 

Forma was a nice change since the difficulty got up and it had its pros and cons.

 

Half the energy for a specific polarity, for 1 of your frame slots.

Requires re leveling

Hard to obtain, but not limited to plat

 

Compare that change to "everyone gets free points" and tell me which one had more thought to it.

[SirAuron]

But remember this. In the future there shall be a lot of mods especially ones that work well with current ones. You'll want all them points so in the end, this system shall work. think of the big picture and think of other people who cannot decide and end up performing bad in your games causing you to lose defense or whichever mission because they don't know what they want or need.

 

There Is no need to punish others to feed this silly obsession with this challenge in finding space. Where is the fun in that? With more mods comes more uniqueness so there is no need to feed this obsession now. Let others have fun and change their play style for the better or else you'll be surrounded by bad players because they are "unique" in their own way.

 

And there is no fun in being VERY limited and having t remove too much mods in favor of others. So much customization, so LITTLE space, so little energy for it all and so little Forma and so much things to spend plat on like more space.

 

What to do?

 

Suppose they can always quit but thats just less money in the Devs pocket.

[SirAuron]

VERY FEW people in this forum like to challenge themselves with finding space and could careless how others feel. They want to feel special at the cost of other players happiness.

 

They can always pretend they have limited space just like how some people pretend they don't have the ability to fast travel in games like Fallout and Skyrim.

 

If they had it their way, people would only have 5 slots and a thousand mods to equip. 

 

They are the extremely hardcore group.

[VinceBlood]

 

VERY FEW people in this forum like to challenge themselves with finding space and could careless how others feel. They want to feel special at the cost of other players happiness.

 

They can always pretend they have limited space just like how some people pretend they don't have the ability to fast travel in games like Fallout and Skyrim.

 

If they had it their way, people would only have 5 slots and a thousand mods to equip. 

 

They are the extremely hardcore group.

 

 

Can you stop copy-pasting across multiple threads?  Thanks.

[Orthusaku]

 

VERY FEW people in this forum like to challenge themselves with finding space and could careless how others feel. They want to feel special at the cost of other players happiness.

 

They can always pretend they have limited space just like how some people pretend they don't have the ability to fast travel in games like Fallout and Skyrim.

 

If they had it their way, people would only have 5 slots and a thousand mods to equip. 

 

They are the extremely hardcore group.

 

So your solution is go the other extreme and give players more energy than they ever will need in the current meta?

 

I don't find it fun trying to get every little energy out of my frames/weapons, but I still find it backwards to not have a hard cap on the system, so they have build unique mods later on that are not just increased stats.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Orthusaku

[Otaiken]

Now you are more limited by the number of actual slots rather then mod capacity. I like that.

[Brasten]

 

But remember this. In the future there shall be a lot of mods especially ones that work well with current ones. You'll want all them points so in the end, this system shall work. think of the big picture and think of other people who cannot decide and end up performing bad in your games causing you to lose defense or whichever mission because they don't know what they want or need.

 

There Is no need to punish others to feed this silly obsession with this challenge in finding space. Where is the fun in that? With more mods comes more uniqueness so there is no need to feed this obsession now. Let others have fun and change their play style for the better or else you'll be surrounded by bad players because they are "unique" in their own way.

 

And there is no fun in being VERY limited and having t remove too much mods in favor of others. So much customization, so LITTLE space, so little energy for it all and so little Forma and so much things to spend plat on like more space.

 

What to do?

 

Suppose they can always quit but thats just less money in the Devs pocket.

 

 

Having a hard cap in the current Mod system is good. If forces DE to actually balance new Mods appropriately instead of rolling player power ever forward. Uncapping that system means that Enemies will need to be rolled ever forward in a perpetual stat-buffing war with no end.

 

We can discuss in a different venue if the current Max (Orokin Reactor, fully formaed) Warframe pool is the correct amount. But creating a system that makes Mod energy and ever upward scalable thing is not good. You don't have to look very far in the RPGish genre to see where this ends, and its never pleasant.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Brasten

[NukaKV]

Wow, people will really complain about anything,

Can't you just be happy that they fixed Auras?

[NDroid]

This change hasn't brought anything that couldn't be achieved before using Formas, so the power creep argument doesn't really apply. Even before the change, the main limiting factor for warframe builds was slot space, not energy. This hasn't changed- you still must choose between power affecting mods, movement mods, defensive mods, loot mods etc. The are a lot more mods than there are slots to fit them and having more energy to do so will help improve customization rather than limit it because with less energy everyone is forced to use the same "optimal" builds.

This will also help new players a lot by giving them more flexibility when modding their frames and encourage them to get reactors\formas to improve further. A smaller gap between potatoed and non-potatoed frames is not a bad thing.

[Busok]

Well, my multi forma'd frames suddenly had some of their formas wasted, but its a good thing for other players so... okay.

[Brasten]

This change hasn't brought anything that couldn't be achieved before using Formas, so the power creep argument doesn't really apply.

 

Disagree strongly. What if DE makes an Aura that gives 10 base energy (20 on polarity), 15, 20? Forma as a system cannot fundamentally change the current energy cap, its set. I actually was not in great favor of a prestige/forma system for exactly the reasons I'm very unhappy with the change in the Aura mods. Only the Aura mods are worse because DE can (and will eventually) make new Auras that continue to push the Mod Energy Cap upwards. Forma actually can't move the cap forward, which means they don't achieve the same thing... not even close.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Brasten

[NessOnett]

The point was : You're not trying to give feedback, you're trying to "win" and fling crap at anyone who disagrees with your opinion, maybe you should try to form your arguments in a manner that presents them properly instead of hurling them enveloped in a ball of mud.

 

You got it backwards. I was the one putting forth clear and concise arguments with facts and logic. And met myself with the likes of you who do nothing but try and discredit me because you can't discredit my arguments. Try and stay on topic please.