So...about Dat Lvl 124 Vor...

[Boomstick720]

I just ran through Tolstoj with a friend of mine. Thinking that the first boss of the game wouldn't be all that difficult, we took along Warframes and weapons we were leveling- a Rank 2 Nova on my part, and a Rank 3 Frost Prime on his part.

 

I had an unmodded Rank 3 Snipertron Vandal, a Rank 15 Bolto with a Rank 2 Hornet Strike and a Rank 1 Deep Freeze, and Rank 18 Dual Ethers with a Rank 2 Pressure Point, a Rank 4 Molten Impact, and a Rank 3 North Wind.

 

My friend had a Rank 18 Boltor, a maxed Despair, and a maxed Kogake.

 

We proceeded through Tolstoj, eliminating the Grineer we encountered along the way pretty handily (my Snipertron one-shotted everything). So, you can imagine our surprise when we wandered into the boss arena and found a Level 70 Captain Vor waiting for us.

 

Needless to say, we both wiped. Vor's Tesla was capable of tearing through my Nova's shields and health in less than two seconds- that is, in the time that it took me to realize that he had thrown it, stop scoping Vor out through my Snipertron, and attempt to run away. The Tesla lasted for long enough that it killed my friend before he managed to revive me.

 

Four Revives later, we had managed to get his health down to about half, but I'd come to realize that even a full magazine from my Snipertron- a good 900 or so damage- didn't even reduce his shields by half. My Bolto wasn't doing much better, with a full magazine on it doing only slightly more than half the damage a full clip of my Snipertron did.

 

So... essentially, no. This isn't an appropriate challenge for a new player.

 

He has far too much health, he deals far too much damage, and his abilities don't even flow on organically from each other like Lech Kril or the Jackal's do. If I had run this Vor as a newbie, I would have been dead long before I even realized that Vor could spawn clones of himself, or that he summoned reinforcements.

 

The game hasn't taught you to stay mobile yet- that comes later, when you start running into MOA's and Ancient Infested. The game hasn't given you the advantages you need to overcome significant amounts of health and shields.

 

That said; there may be level scaling involved. If there is, and it's likely that new players might run into a Level 10 Vor, tops, then sure, it might be a bit more appropriate (albeit still full of bullS#&$). But as it stands now? Haha, no. F*** no. This challenge is completely inappropriate for the first boss a player might fight in the game.

Just fought him again to test it.  Man that Tesla sure does hurt like a *@##$, so I suppose that could use a bit of a damage nerf since getting trapped by those is a death sentence.  The health is related to the level, which on an earlier post I said should indeed be lowered.  My point is that the issue is that his level is a bit too high, and therefore the damage, health, and other related aspects are too high as well.  All his attacks are fair enough (You can outrun his laser, dodge the bullets, and simply avoid the teslas).  Apologies if I wasn't clear there.

 

However, I believe the only real flaw with the boss is related to the level, not with the mechanics of the boss itself.

 

 

That's not my argument. Kid? I'm 21 years old. I was playing this game casually with a friend of mine and thought it was fun until they overbuffed everything.

 

My argument is that the game is nearly impossibly for newcomers to play at all unless they are playing and mooching off of high ranked people right now. Let alone, some of the bosses are even too difficult as it is now. I don't mind an increased challenge on a reasonable level. Not a, "Let's beef up everything insanely" level.

 

Pay attention, just saying~

For the record, I called you kid because your responses were childish.  I really don't give a S#&$ about how old you really are, because it sure is hell wasn't indicative of some of your behavior.

[Magnum417]

I mean... 

 

Vor is similar to Kril in that there is a mechanics to beating him.

 

The difference is that Kril is a "zelda" boss and vor is a "metal gear rising" boss (Not as @(*()$ awesome, but its the only game that comes to mind that I think illustrates my point).

 

The way to beat Kril is 1. Run around in circles while shooting his back 2. wait for him to use hammer and then 3. attack him when frozen.  The second phase is more or less just fighting a tough enemy.

 

THe way to beat Vor is more organic really.  He will teleport and then start trying to shoot you with his pistol, which is easily avoidable and hardlly accurate to begin with.  After dealing some damage he will spawn some enemies, which you eliminate.  Then rinse and repeat.  The only catch is that he will occasionally throw Teslas at you, which can hurt a LOT if you are very low level and aren't being mobile.

 

 

I am aware of this, but I'm also of the opinion that you shouldn't dumb down a game to the point that even a 3 year old can play it.  Vor is not hard.  I just finished killing him solo with a lvl 3 frost frame, and 1 ability, a level 6 snipetron, and two other unranked weapons.  Was it hard?  Yes.  Yes it was.  But you know what was good about it?  I actually felt like I accomplished something.  Like I actually beat a real boss, and not just a reskinned enemy with more health and a gimmick, like almost every other boss in the game.

 

Having a boss that says "hey, you actually need to know more than just 'stand here and shoot' to win" rewards playing fast and mobile, and punishes playing the game as a cover shooter.

 

Keep this in mind as well.  I'm definitely more of a veteran, so you could argue "well you're just used to the mechanics".  While this is true, keep in mind while the option of playing solo is definitely a possibility, the game also definitely encourages playing with other people.  And I can already hear people crying "Well that's being unfair to the solo people!", to which I respond, "Deal with it".  As I said before, you can easily fix this issue through a "# of people" scaling.  

Realize we are veterans though and we understand our full potential and powers unlike them, as they are new and still learning. A good example is let say the simple objective is to reach the goal and there are obstacles in the way. Most people can pass these obstacles, as they aren't that hard. Now think about it if a giant wall appeared and people realized that they couldn't jump over it. Now the elite people would notice that it's a brick wall and it has niches in it, so they could grab onto the niches and pull themselves over the wall. Now if they don't have the proper equipment, it's hard, but they can do it. Now think about the people who aren't pro climbers though and don't even understand that they can climb over the wall.

 

Now lets add in scaling, it's like raising the wall depending on how good you are, but it still has that high initiate you add in before you add in your skill. So for a person like you, the wall would be raised, yet you would still be able to climb over the wall, it's just even harder and more exhausting.  Now think about the beginners who just thought about climbing the wall, then it gets raised even harder. Sure there will be the one or two people who are supreme naturals and beat it easily, but that will be out of the billion people who do try and utterly fail. 

 

Look I am not saying to nerf this or all, I am asking for it to be revised, editted in this case. Make it so it's the best of both worlds. Allow it to be scaled more properly, make it so you can fight him at lower levels for the beginners like how he used to be, but let him be powerful for the higher level veterans like us for the challenge. I do like how he is stronger but I am upset for my weaker friends who struggle. Plus if you want someone really hard to fight why not try to solo Lech Kril instead, or even the Hyena? Something that was more meant for the higher levels.

 

Thank you for reading this.

[Tempera]

My point is that the issue is that his level is a bit too high, and therefore the damage, health, and other related aspects are too high as well.  All his attacks are fair enough (You can outrun his laser, dodge the bullets, and simply avoid the teslas).  Apologies if I wasn't clear there.

That's confusing, because the point of the thread is that the level was too high. I haven't seen anyone (I'd listen to) complaining about his actual attack patterns; just how utterly impossible these levels would be for new players.

[Boomstick720]

That's confusing, because the point of the thread is that the level was too high. I haven't seen anyone (I'd listen to) complaining about his actual attack patterns; just how utterly impossible these levels would be for new players.

My mistake then.  I thought really the only flaw with Vor was the level he was.  It just seemed like one of those "everything is awful about Vor now" threads already.

 

Guess I'll have to look forward to those in the near future.

[Winterbraid]

His mechanics are good. The scaling isn't because he's too tough for a new player, who might not even know what Fusion is, nor have Redirection or any damage mods yet (I didn't when I first fought the old Vor, and he took me several attempts to beat). The damage of his Teslas is noticeable even as an advanced player.

 

A typical newbie will just get shredded over and over (and might not even know what hit them because they haven't seen Teslas before). You shouldn't need to farm the first planet just to beat the first boss.

 

Overall, this update increases the difficulty in a bad way. Upping the levels across the system only hurts new players, it doesn't affect the advanced players for whom level 100 enemies are nothing.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Winterbraid

[VeronikaStripper]

Anyone confirm that he SCALES based upon mastery level of who is in the group? hmmmmmmmm?

Edited July 13, 2013 by valdrak

[AmberScalie]

Even when it scales it's relatively high for the first boss of a game. Especially due to his attacks and such. Newcomers will have issues regardless, unless they are born with the unnatural talent to play the game well.

[DeathwingZero]

I just went in with an alternate account, Mastery 1. Mag level 7, 3 starter weapons all below level 10. No mods. My sister joined me (Mastery 2) level 20 Trinity (second frame, first is Mag, 30, all starter weapons level 30) he was level 62 with just the two of us. Now, we could kill him with time as long as no mistakes were made, but I was killed in a single hit from his Cronus from max health and shields.

My main account is mastery 5 so while I'm not the greatest player ever I can understand how to evade his attacks, aim for the head, keep moving, etc. You also need to keep in mind the  level range for Tolstoj is 3-7. At the absolute maximum he should be no higher than level 20 in order to be fair to new players, and even that might be too high. Perhaps 12-15. 

I don't think his damage or attacks or AI is broken (it is possible, but it seems fine to me) his level scaling is just broken though. I could understand a level 100+ Vor if it was nightmare mode or something, but not a bog standard run. This definitely needs attention.

[eStecko]

Lore-wise he has to be strong.

 

Any idea if he is scales by rank of your warframes/weapons or mastery or highest mastery in the squad etc? He was level 102 on me.

[Xylia]

The problem here, is when you take a Lv5-10 Excalibur, Mag, or Loki into this fight as a newbie... get matched up randomly with some Lv30+ player or two... and suddenly he is Level 100+.

 

You, the newbie, will die in a split second and can't even touch him. So, what, again, were you supposed to learn from this?

 

And of course they advertise he drops a new pistol BP so everybody is farming him now...

 

I can understand not wanting him to die in seconds, but.....Level 120+?

 

His yellow beams killing people in <4 seconds who are decked out with Redirection/Vitality mods?

Edited July 13, 2013 by Xylia

[CY13ERPUNK]

I think the boss should be a significantly higher level than the other enemies, but not like level 125 on Mercury.  Otherwise we might start seeing bosses on pluto at around level 500 or so, and that would be insanity.  

 

However, overall I do like Captain Vor as a boss.  He is currently a bit high leveled now, but I like how his attacks aren't like basically paper cuts, and actually can significantly hurt you at a low level when fighting him.  I also like how he uses the cronus in CQC, summons enemies when he is getting #*($%%@ up, and uses the occasional strong attack when he has suffered some damage.  In terms of design, I really like him, because he isn't really that difficult, as all his attacks are easily dodged if you are mobile, but his attacks can be punishing if you stay in one place.

 

Is he difficult for newbies?  Yes.  Oh very much yes.

 

But in all honesty, I would rather have the boss feel... well like a legitimate "boss" rather than a really buffed out enemy.  In other words, if given the choice between two extremes in this area, I would rather vor be too difficult over too easy.  In this respect, while vor is certainly difficult now, I do like how basically all his attacks encourage one thing- movement.

well said

[Numot]

In solo mode he's level 24. The problem is clearly he up-scales a lot for more than one person. He should probably gain health if fighting more than one player rather than becoming overwhelmingly strong.

[Nox174]

I love new Vor but level 124 should just be for Nightmare Mode Vor (Which is gonna be awwwsome).

[Inez]

In solo mode he's level 24. The problem is clearly he up-scales a lot for more than one person. He should probably gain health if fighting more than one player rather than becoming overwhelmingly strong.

When I fought him solo, he was level 80. And was pretty fun, did not expect a level 80 boss in Mercury.

Something tells me DE will adjust this.

[0neShot]

I started a new character with a new email and wanted to see what level he was. The boss was only a level 12. I think he is scaled by your profile and weapons that u have and not just the ones u have equipped. Everyone needs to stop complaining about not being able to go back to a beginning boss and kill him in one hit. I like that the first boss is now a challenge for high level profiles. Stop complaining and deal with the new and more difficult boss.  

[Incursum]

I don't know about you guys, but I had a blast facing the new Vor for the first time.

 

Teammates going down left and right! Relying on Shade's invisibility to sneakly heal them! Tension all around!

[Mak_Gohae]

Isnt............................Isn't boss levels adjusting to the players in the group extremely old by now?

You guys popped in with a group of 30s with everything Formad and you got something that was going to put up a fight.

I popped in once with a 30 Rhino and i got a lvl 43 Vor.

[Tempera]

You guys popped in with a group of 30s with everything Formad and you got something that was going to put up a fight.

Er, no. I popped in with a Rank 2 Nova, a Rank 3/4 Snipertron, and two mid-ranked weapons. My friend only had a Rank 3 Frost Prime (unforma'd), and some high-rank weapons.

 

Vor didn't put up a fight; he stomped us.

 

That sort of disparity, when the typical new player will only have a couple ranks on my Nova and far weaker weapons, is completely inappropriate.

 

In fact, you know what? I'm going to go back with the Excalibur I dropped the first time I played. A Rank 10 Excalibur, a Rank 4 Snipertron Vandal, an unranked Kraken, and an unranked Skana Prime is not all that much more powerful than the typical new player will be by the time they attempt Vor for the first time.

 

Hold on for results.

[Mak_Gohae]

Er, no. I popped in with a Rank 2 Nova, a Rank 3/4 Snipertron, and two mid-ranked weapons. My friend only had a Rank 3 Frost Prime (unforma'd), and some high-rank weapons.

 

Vor didn't put up a fight; he stomped us.

 

That sort of disparity, when the typical new player will only have a couple ranks on my Nova and far weaker weapons, is completely inappropriate.

 

In fact, you know what? I'm going to go back with the Excalibur I dropped the first time I played. A Rank 10 Excalibur, a Rank 4 Snipertron Vandal, an unranked Kraken, and an unranked Skana Prime is not all that much more powerful than the typical new player will be by the time they attempt Vor for the first time.

 

Hold on for results.

 

Apparently weapons ranks matters in picking enemy level?

[Tempera]

Apparently weapons ranks matters in picking enemy level?

Well, I just ran through Tolstoj with the loadout I just stated.

 

Vor was Level 15. He was challenging- challenging enough to kill me once, but not multiple times. (Although staying mobile hurt far more than it helped, thanks to his laser attack, which encourages staying behind cover and shooting at him.) He has a lot more health than I would expect from a low-level boss; it took multiple clips from my Kraken to down him, in the realms of 1200 or more health. I do like that his shields only regenerated during certain portions of the fight, though.

 

He didn't drop anything exciting, though. 30-odd Polymer Bundles and a Blunderbuss mod.

 

At this level, Captain Vor would be a very challenging boss to new players. DE might want to tone down the health and damage a bit. Other than that, nope.

 

Okay; now let's run it again, with a rank 11 Excalibur, a Rank 11 Forma'd Braton, a Rank 24 Lex, and a Rank 28 Gram.

[Tempera]

Just ran through with the loadout I noted.

 

Vor was Level 42 this time. I don't know what he would have dropped, as his laser attack dropped me pretty much instantly.

 

So it appears that it's a combined thing, between the rank of your weapons and Warframe, that determines Vor's level.

 

But that laser attack is a frigging pain in the &amp;#&#33;; it burned off all my shields and health before I could even get twenty shots off.

 

The worst part is, it's inconsistent; Vor is the only opponent in Tolstoj whose level scales with yours.

 

In fact, I'll go start a thread on this so people know.