Warframe | General Gameplay Balance

[-.Vergil.-]

Yo!

Probably I'm not the only one, who noticed this, but I really want to make a thread and discussion about Warframe and Balance In-Game and share my opinions and solutions.

Let's start from the begin. Warframe - "Space Ninjas" F2P Co-Op TPS/Slasher with Dynamic Gameplay. Is this game really like it should be? In my opinion is not. Now it's "Space Deathmachines" F2P TPS with Power vs Power Gameplay. How many of you still remember how hard and fun was game at MR 0-2? That's what I loved in this game.

Please before writing comments read everything, that I wrote here, 'cause it's all somehow connected to each points.

=== General Problems ===

 - Warframes Skills and Abilities -
Let's talk about this first, 'cause it's heart of this game. Warframes (without skills) are mostly weak and usually can die by a one shot/hit, BUT they have tons of power. Most Warframes are Area DMG Warframes, so it's seriously weird, mainly 'cause of small levels areas (rooms). Gameplay became boring, slow and it's not seriously any more co-op. It's all focused on "Press 4 and forget". Most players is enough strong to do solo missions. Skills should be more a support type, so players has to move and do something more than spam "4" or sit and shoot. (Nuclear) Overpower in this game became ridiculous. Weapons and Skill are strong and overpowered with good builds AND we have also Riven Mods, which they can add much more OP. It's not that bad that Skills makes some Damage, but they should be a support for a main gameplay. Solution? Reduce Skills Power. This for sure will make gameplay harder. For now higher or high tier enemies (lvl 40+) are not a challenge.
About Abilities of Warframes - they're mostly quite pointless, like Zephyr's one, since we have better movement system in game. I'm not talking here about all abilities, but some of them really need some rework.

- Warframes Survivalality -
Next step is survivalality. Warframes have tons of power, but they're weak. Armour stats are just funny unknown and really there's no difference between 20 and 120 armour. Point? Make Warframes stronger by better survivalality (next point may be also good solution here). It's now pointed on "Hit them, before they'll hit".

- Enemies Survivalality and Elites -
Same thing, enemies are really weak. Enemies (lvl40-50) die usually by 1-3 hits, but same as Warframes - they have tons of power to make serious damage. Elites has auras (toxic, energy drain, etc.) and are the only trouble makers. Numbers of Elite Enemies is not a solution - it's just awkard way to increase gameplay level. Great example may be our Sentinels, which sometimes they die instantly. My solution? Make enemies much more hard to kill, some kind hard like Simaris Targets, so players will have to use everything that they have to kill them, but also reduce their firepower. It's quite wrong, when enemies are dealing too much damage per hit/per shot. Also at this point reduce numbers of Elites, which are main trouble makers. This may be also a good point to use Elites for more events, alerts or special sectors.

- Weapons - Main, Secondary -
Like I said before, not only Warframes are OP, but also a lot of weapons with good build (especially with Riven Mods). Now it's hard to tell me, which weapons should have reduced power, but maybe if enemies get stronger it won't be necessary (or at least less).

- Weapons - Melee -
Personally, this is my favourite part of this game. They're strong, but in Close Combat. It's also a great part of game, that allows us to choice and create or own gameplay style (same thing with Warframes and other Weapons). But also, they may be quite too strong, since they easilly kill enemies (same thing as previous point). Also I'd like to notice, that for sake of better gameplay Melee combo's should be also usable while using other weapons (Main, Secondary).


=== Solutions (Short) ===

- Warframes -

 + Survivalality
 + Support Skills Focus

 +/- Abilities Rework

 - Skills Power
 - Skills Range

- Weapons: Main, Secondary -

 +/- Stats Rework

 - Weapons: Melee -

 + Combo Ability

 +/- Stats Rework

- Basic Enemies -

 + Survivalality

 +/- Weapons Stats Rework

- Elite Enemies -

 + Survivalality
 + Less stuff on screen*

 +/- Weapons Stats Rework

 - Less Numbers of EE*

- Gameplay -

 + Dynamic
 + Harder
 + More Co-op
 + Balanced
 + Less stuff on screen (EE)*
 + All Skills are more important
 + More choices to good build focus
 + Better allows to use all aspects of game*
 + Less PC usage*

 +/- Weapons Stats Rework

 - Less Power (Both)

* - connected to each other.

For [DE]:
 - Slashers are great type of games that will allow you to show, how dynamic Warframe should be (for. ex. fights in DMC series, where you need a moment to kill one enemy).
 - MMO-RPG are great type of games that will allow you to show, how skills systems and Co-Op should looks like (no examples needed, since there's tons of this games).

Thank you for your attention, for reading this thread. I hope that you'll get my point of Warframe problems. This game seriously became boring and way too unbalanced by each Updates and Reworks. It's all focussed on gaining more and more power and OP Warframes skills in a Power vs Power fights.
No Way To Play (since players are enough strong to do everything alone) -> No Challenge -> No Fun -> No Point To Play. :x

[PC-EU] |POL-ENG| Player
(MR17)
-DEVIL-WARRIOR-

[aligatorno]

What you mentioned in you post is all highly subjective. You can solve most of your problems by modding for them accordingly. Of course you`ll wipe enemies off the face of the planet with a 4-5 forma warframe and a 5-6 forma weapon and modded with the best mods possible to achieve the best min-maxing. 

This "problem" that Warframe "has", it's not quite as dire as you make it out to be. You can make the game hard for you, or you can make it easy. Warframe is one of the few games that give you that flexibility. Warframe is unique in this aspect and it certainly doesn't need to be like other MMOs just for the sake of it. 

Some of use like using weapons more, some like melee, some like powers, some like coop, some like solo. There's no wrong way to play it. 

Edited April 5, 2017 by aligatorno

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

15 minutes ago, -DEVIL-WARRIOR- said:

How many of you still remember how hard and fun was game at MR 0-2? That's what I loved in this game.

You can still play that game.

Just don't install all your best mods in your equipment.

The only thing that's changed between then and now is the mods you own and their rank.

[letir]

Just now, aligatorno said:

What you mentioned in you post is all highly subjective. You can solve most of your problems by modding for them accordingly. Of course you`ll wipe enemies off the face of the planet with a 4-5 forma warframe and a 5-6 forma weapon and modded with the best mods possible to achieve the best min-maxing. 

This "problem" that Warframe "has", it's not quite as dire as you make it out to be. You can make the game hard for you, or you can make it easy. Warframe is one of the few games that give you that flexibility. Warframe is unique in this aspect and it certainly doesn't need to be like other MMOs just for the sake of it. 

Some of use like using weapons more, some like melee, some like powers, some like coop, some like solo. There's no wrong way to play it. 

No?

 

I mean, you can do some kind of "naked/no spells/no potions/knife only" playthrough in most of the games. Or just turn difficulty to the max and enjoy "challenges" of CoD. It dosen't mean thath every game is "hard" or "challenging" or "have flexibility".

 

Normal game design mean that you use every single possibility to win. Every weapon, every spell, every medkit, every combination - except glitches, bugs and other cheap tactics.

[-.Vergil.-]

28 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

What you mentioned in you post is all highly subjective. You can solve most of your problems by modding for them accordingly. Of course you`ll wipe enemies off the face of the planet with a 4-5 forma warframe and a 5-6 forma weapon and modded with the best mods possible to achieve the best min-maxing. 

This "problem" that Warframe "has", it's not quite as dire as you make it out to be. You can make the game hard for you, or you can make it easy. Warframe is one of the few games that give you that flexibility. Warframe is unique in this aspect and it certainly doesn't need to be like other MMOs just for the sake of it. 

Some of use like using weapons more, some like melee, some like powers, some like coop, some like solo. There's no wrong way to play it. 

It's true, there's no wrong or good way to play it, but the truth is, that there's too many power focussed things - from Warframes to Mods. And let's be serious, who's not using at least one OP thing while playing? Higher tiers means more power (for both; enemies and players) and that's all the difference.

 

 

23 minutes ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

You can still play that game.

Just don't install all your best mods in your equipment.

The only thing that's changed between then and now is the mods you own and their rank.

Okay, but then gameplay, game explore and playing it will be really pointless, since you'll take any weapon, join the match a sit down and do nothing, 'cause other players will kill everything before you'll do anything. What's the point? Anyway game wants us to add mods, so it's also a quite pointless to play with unmodded (or badly modded) stuffs, so again - what's the point?

Seriously, I've tried to play Warframe on many ways and I was just:
 a) Rekt by other Players
 b) Rekt by Enemies
 c) Bored

Warframe has serious problem with good balance between fun, hard and easy. Usually I just run Warframe, play one match and quit. So, what's the point? (again) Even if I have something to do I'm just get quickly bored or annoyed by balance.

@edit

Oh and one thing - everything what's in game DE allows us to use, but also this means that it has it's own point in the game. If we have that much power, it's means that we must expect hard to kill enemies, while it's not that much true.

Edited April 5, 2017 by -DEVIL-WARRIOR-

[aligatorno]

5 minutes ago, -DEVIL-WARRIOR- said:

 

 

Okay, but then gameplay, game explore and playing it will be really pointless, since you'll take any weapon, join the match a sit down and do nothing, 'cause other players will kill everything before you'll do anything. What's the point? Anyway game wants us to add mods, so it's also a quite pointless to play with unmodded (or badly modded) stuffs, so again - what's the point?

 

So instead , you`d take the power away from people, because they don't have your way of thinking regarding about how hard the game should be? 

Edited April 5, 2017 by aligatorno

[Sziklamester]

The main problem in this game the direction or the no idea what it supposed to be. Simple coop with demigods killing everything or a skill based hardcores only game. I am on the halfway and my aim the game turn into be both of types of games mixes. Currently your gear and powers determinates how good you are and it is not bad at all if there is some parkour using and dodging ability from part of the players.

Your suggestions aren't bad but you forget the fact the balance is In reality is non existent and it is an always changing thing which makes the devs constant work on their game.

There could be more closely balanced the game but it is a sacrificing the fun part. Also no devs in the world can make a game which is perfect for everyone and always will be complaints how bad and good something. Feedback them and wait for changes and have fun while you can.

[-.Vergil.-]

19 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

So instead , you`d take the power away from people, because they don't have your way of thinking regarding about how hard the game should be? 

If you want to hear it - yes.
If you don't - not really.
I'm still talking about rebalance and balance problems. It's big difference. For me, a high tier player gameplay became boring. There's no true Co-Op and it's focused on mindless Overpower right now. This should be fun? For me it's like playing Minesweeper right now. It's a lot of "Test Your Luck" - you one shot enemies or they'll one shot you. Power vs Power. Seriously, this became pointless.

@edit
Sziklamester - it's true. Balance seems to not exist. For me I really great remember MR 0-2 Gameplay vs nonEE (lvl1-15) enemies (really hard and need to think), MR 4-8 Gameplay vs (lvl-20-40) enemies (fun, but also feel the power), MR 9-13 Gameplay vs (lvl40-100) enemies (feel fun, quite hard and more powerful), MR 15-17 Gameplay vs (lvl 50+) enemies (feel bored, overpowered, too easy).

I just feel the game, how it works, what's good, what's wrong (we usually call that experience). Since that gameplay just became pointless and boring. New Weapons? Cool fun for 5 minutes. New Warframes? Another 10 minutes. Even helping newbies is not fun anymore. For me it's probably gonna be a long break, till i'll come back to play Warframe again. Quite sad, but true and it's easy to see, that I'm not the only one, who's making long breaks.

I'm glad, that there's such a great F2P game like Warframe, but [DE] need to think, what they're creating and what they're changing. I just hope, that this thread will open their eyes and they'll more focus on basic ideas, basic gameplay of this game and also end-game. That's all...

Edited April 5, 2017 by -DEVIL-WARRIOR-

[BakeMyCake]

One thing I strongly agree with the OP about is that strength difference between the player and the AI is ridiculous. Not only in damage output, but in mobility and variety of actions aswell.

Tenno move so fast and so freely, and I love it, but the ai has no reasonable means of catching up, or even hitting tenno most of the time, because of reaction time built into their behaviour pattern. The way most missions are completed, the player seeks the most non-interactive route. Lockdown, arctic traps, scanners and enemies pull are meant to discourage tenno from mindlessly running through the mission, but might I say that all these means are not very effective at their current iteration. Sometimes I feel like there needs to be a guy in every faction that deploys a kind of 'roadblock' on players path, but then I remember that we run missions like that on our own admission, and we, as players really don't want any obstruction. I think it would be great if there were some highly mobile enemy types that moved as fast as an average warframe, and interacted with the player while on the run. That would offer a feeling of chase rather then a feeling of running into an infinite sequence of rooms with enemies being surprised at you, as you vanish as fast as you emerged.

Tenno also get the general upper hand in health to damage output ratio. One of the main reasons why stealth is obsolete, outside of enforced scenarios like spy missions, is because as poor as the ai is at spoting tenno, the ai is infinitely poorer at fighting them. Tenno have way more dps than they have effective health, but the ai dudes have less dps than their own health pool. I think it would make sense to adopt the philosophy that generally an ai enemy needs to have their damage output surpass their own effective health pool, as it makes sense from even modern military doctrine that a soldier weilds firepower that can decimate him several times over. It wouldn't even hurt most of the base game, because below level 40 all enemies are made of glass, and have a rare chance of hitting tenno anyways.

I disagree with the statement that warframes' abilities damage is too strong. That is just not true, case and point - noone uses any flat damage nukes of their warframes. Players favor using the weapons that they bring, because they scale way better that warframe skills. That being said, I do agree that reworking warframe skills with a more utility-oriented approach would be way better for the current game.

Warframe survivability is fine as is. If warframes get a buff in health it would give players no reason to be smart. I'd say lower the base survivability a little, but give a tad more survivability-related situational skills to make the player work for their safety.

I like the idea of combining melee and gunplay more seamlessly, but I can't think of a way to implement that in a reasonable way gameplay-wise. I think whoever figures that out is going to make the greatest tps game ever.

[-.Vergil.-]

I just want to add one thing: It's just my idea, my vision of solution. It may be good, it may be wrong. Mainly I just want to notice the problem with balance. Also 'cause I'm not the type of person, who just notice problems - I also gave an example of solution.

BakeMyCake

I agree about movement compare (Tenno vs Enemies)...
... but I can't agree with DPS vs Survivalality compare.
For example (from what I understood) if we add more DPS to enemies Tenno will be more easilly killed. I just want to notice, that some enemies with lvl40+ (especially Elite) can now one shot kill most Warframes, so it would be pointless, especially in such missions like Rescure, Defence, Mobile Defence.
Also I can't agree with you about players favor. It's really random. I'm mostly playing on Eris - Akkad, which is one of the most popular sectors. It's a Defence Mission vs Plague. Most players is mainly using their Skills, especially with Warframes like Limbo, Octavia, Ember, Excalibur, Rhino, Mesa which are great DPS Warframes.

About playing smart and not... This is a choice of our play style that DE gave us. You can focus on any Ability, any Weapon - literally anything. It also means that you have a free hand how do you use your Warframe and your Weapons. Now for ex.: If we have tons of Power Mods, why we can't get such great Survivalality Mods? Okay, basically we have 1 Mod for Health, 1 Mod for Shield and 1 for Both. 2 Mods for Armour and that's all. And to be honest they're not good as should be. Another ex.: why Ash and Loki are the only true stealth Warframes? *Ding!* The answer is that DE don't (and can't) focus on Stealth Gaming only. Tons of Power Mods, loud weapons is also a example. Another ex.: Why we have such missions like Defence, MD, Survival, etc.? Those missions are not focused on Stealth Gaming. And also (what you've noticed) movement in game, which allows to quickly escape from any situation and avoid combat.

And that's why I gave this type of solution. I'm playing over a year, I'm near 200 days in-game and I'm a good observer. Warframe is not a first game that I'm playing. I like may different game types. I can easily figure, how game really works (game mechanics, systems, etc.) just by watching it while playing. Of course, there's still some stuffs, that are hard to get for me (like Armour in Warframe), but not balance, which is probably most important thing in every single game. :V

[Volinus7]

Typical argument you can see everywhere on this forum especially recently.

"Warframe shouldn't be boring as it is" vs "We still have fun doing your boring stuffs so don't you dare change anything"