Oberon Prime's Shoulder must be like Vanilla Oberon

[-Kraeno-]

I love oberons prime parts except his shoulders its gone when i change armor its weird looking he is like a man with mini arms, Also his immortal skin is bugged and not properly set because his old shoulders were removed. Bring it back pls.

This photo is a vanilla and prime variant comparison.

 

[CaustiCat]

SO much this ! He looks so stupid and skinny in his prime version. I got him and I have to stick with his regular skin cause I can't stand his shoulders in P version. 

[NightmareT12]

No, the Shoulder design is different and they can't change it. It's going to ruin many things, from the custom armor to the whole thing because the armor pieces are designed to be glued and modeled different.

[CaustiCat]

Maybe a solution would be an addition of auxiliary slot like Nekros have for his mortos binds. It would contain the extra shoulder cosmetic option for primed version. It would make everyone happy and leave nobody to complain. 

 

5 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

No, the Shoulder design is different and they can't change it. It's going to ruin many things, from the custom armor to the whole thing because the armor pieces are designed to be glued and modeled different.

No, the design of his shoulders are is not different. They just removed the base shoulder armor from regular Oberon and covered most of his back with primed layers.

I'm sure DE can come up with some quick&easy solution. It's just a matter of some positioning to avoid too much clipping. 

[NightmareT12]

18 minutes ago, Electrohead said:

Maybe a solution would be an addition of auxiliary slot like Nekros have for his mortos binds. It would contain the extra shoulder cosmetic option for primed version. It would make everyone happy and leave nobody to complain. 

 

No, the design of his shoulders are is not different. They just removed the base shoulder armor from regular Oberon and covered most of his back with primed layers.

I'm sure DE can come up with some quick&easy solution. It's just a matter of some positioning to avoid too much clipping. 

There is no solution here that can come up.

The pauldron is cut into two areas now: The back one, which is a part of the mesh, and the side/front one, which is now a part of the Shoulder armor and is modeled completely different.

Oberon's mesh has a different shoulder model.

To make it clear, this is like asking DE to separate the Mortos attachment point from Nekros Prime's wings, glue it to the shoulder, and then have the cloth as a different piece.

EDIT:

Edited June 1, 2017 by NightmareT12

[CaustiCat]

30 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

No, the Shoulder design is different and they can't change it. It's going to ruin many things, from the custom armor to the whole thing because the armor pieces are designed to be glued and modeled different.

On the image below You can clearly see where is the base model and where are the prime additions. I'd say that the regular shoulder armor would fit pretty nicely on top of that primed back piece. 

 

ps. With people like this running in warframe a tiny armor clipping is rather insignificant in my opinion. 
 

 

[NightmareT12]

I know what, where and how the Prime changes are. I am literally telling you that this is:

1) A lot of work that requires model and texture changes across all files

2) A major change to his design and the way attachments work on him

3) Asking for a big compromise on their art department, AKA opening a can of worms

And to me, the clipping would be quite significant.

Seriously, I'm not going to give up a good functional already released Warframe model over the shoulders of his standard version because some people just want everything to look as much as the same as possible. Same complaint we've had with Rhino Prime for years.

People end up wondering what Scott means when he said that "you give an inch and they ask for a mile".

Edited June 1, 2017 by NightmareT12

[CaustiCat]

A lot of work ? A major change ? For putting one existing model part on top of the other existing one by a company creating the game? Don't be ridiculous please. 

A completely new helmet or syandana models are being created by a single tennogen artists in just few weeks with custom textures and physics. 

What I'm suggesting is a small change that could be added one day to make wider audience happy with the way Oberon P looks.

 

Also, Your opinion about it being a significant clipping problem has nothing to do here cause I clearly stated that it could be a part stored in auxiliary slot. Don't like it ? Simply don't use it. Again, makes everyone happy. 

[NightmareT12]

12 minutes ago, Electrohead said:

A lot of work ? A major change ? For putting one existing model part on top of the other existing one by a company creating the game? Don't be ridiculous please. 

A completely new helmet or syandana models are being created by a single tennogen artists in just few weeks with custom textures and physics. 

What I'm suggesting is a small change that could be added one day to make wider audience happy with the way Oberon P looks.

 

Also, Your opinion about it being a significant clipping problem has nothing to do here cause I clearly stated that it could be a part stored in auxiliary slot. Don't like it ? Simply don't use it. Again, makes everyone happy. 

It won't work, because then the armor will still be attached on the arms, which will most likely clip into it... Which in turn would mean that they would have to choose between catering people that use one or the other option.

On top of that, while all you say is true, ask yourself that if it was this easy why don't we have Vauban and Volt with cloth physics, for example. It is also true that they have more stuff we don't know about being worked on pretty much all the time.

Not to say how much the pauldron would clip when animated. Why do you think they chose to model Oberon Prime how it is? Here's a hint:

They don't rig (for technical reasons or because they don't want to, I have no idea), this kind of pieces. Hence what happens above. And hecne why the whole time I was saying "When Oberon Prime comes, try to make his shoulder armor come at the side". They might have noticed at some point.

And it would happen on this, and people would still complain.

People, you just need to accept that Oberon Prime's mesh is different, just like other Primes are. Take me for a fool, call me whatever, but this will most likely not happen because it's asking for a lot of work they can be doing on another thing and it's an approved, functional new design.

Edited June 1, 2017 by NightmareT12

[CaustiCat]

28 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

It won't work, because then the armor will still be attached on the arms, which will most likely clip into it... Which in turn would mean that they would have to choose between catering people that use one or the other option.

On top of that, while all you say is true, ask yourself that if it was this easy why don't we have Vauban and Volt with cloth physics, for example. It is also true that they have more stuff we don't know about being worked on pretty much all the time.

Not to say how much the pauldron would clip when animated. Why do you think they chose to model Oberon Prime how it is? Here's a hint:

They don't rig (for technical reasons or because they don't want to, I have no idea), this kind of pieces. Hence what happens above. And hecne why the whole time I was saying "When Oberon Prime comes, try to make his shoulder armor come at the side". They might have noticed at some point.

And it would happen on this, and people would still complain.

People, you just need to accept that Oberon Prime's mesh is different, just like other Primes are. Take me for a fool, call me whatever, but this will most likely not happen because it's asking for a lot of work they can be doing on another thing and it's an approved, functional new design.

Please tell me how bad the clipping looks like: 

 

 

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, Electrohead said:

Please tell me how bad the clipping looks like: 

 

 

I take that would be photoshopped. So there it won't clip because it's stretching, because it's taken from a screenshot.

Once the part becomes separate, it's another story. *refers back to video*

But anyways I already said all I had to say here.

Edited June 1, 2017 by NightmareT12

[nonbinarysunset]

5 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

There is no solution here that can come up.

The pauldron is cut into two areas now: The back one, which is a part of the mesh, and the side/front one, which is now a part of the Shoulder armor and is modeled completely different.

Oberon's mesh has a different shoulder model.

To make it clear, this is like asking DE to separate the Mortos attachment point from Nekros Prime's wings, glue it to the shoulder, and then have the cloth as a different piece.

from my experience with 3d modelling, it's not a very difficult fix really. attaching the shoulder armour to the base model so it doesn't come off is veeery simple. the most fiddly bit imho would be having to fit the prime shoulder armour's texture map etc into oberon prime's. but that would only be if they had to go back and physically attached them to the torso, which I don't think is how DE stores all their model data? we can see with every other prime frame when you toggle prime parts on a tennogen skin, and even when you put the immortal skin on oberon prime after they patched it today (base oberon's shoulders aren't included in it anymore on the prime), a lot of the additions on prime frames, and apparently oberon's normal shoulders, are pretty much wrapped around the base model, and can be excluded or included in something as simple as a hotfix, or with a toggle.

so if their system works the way it appears to, all they'd have to do is flag the prime shoulder armour model and textures as included in oberon prime's main body, then probably later go through and reposition where each shoulder armour piece sits with the prime shoulders under them. 

the state of the immortal skin atm actually worries me a little? I've been working on a design I wanna put together to submit to tennogen, and its looking like if I made it and it got in game, toggling the prime parts on for it would end up removing the shoulders? which is kind of a bummer.

but either way, as I said in your thread yesterday, if trinity and nova are allowed to do this,

I don't see why oberon prime can't at least have his prime shoulder armour on at all times, even if it clips a little. :(

Edited June 1, 2017 by glutularphysics

[NightmareT12]

1 hour ago, glutularphysics said:

from my experience with 3d modelling, it's not a very difficult fix really. attaching the shoulder armour to the base model so it doesn't come off is veeery simple. the most fiddly bit imho would be having to fit the prime shoulder armour's texture map etc into oberon prime's. but that would only be if they had to go back and physically attached them to the torso, which I don't think is how DE stores all their model data? we can see with every other prime frame when you toggle prime parts on a tennogen skin, and even when you put the immortal skin on oberon prime after they patched it today (base oberon's shoulders aren't included in it anymore on the prime), a lot of the additions on prime frames, and apparently oberon's normal shoulders, are pretty much wrapped around the base model, and can be excluded or included in something as simple as a hotfix, or with a toggle.

so if their system works the way it appears to, all they'd have to do is flag the prime shoulder armour model and textures as included in oberon prime's main body, then probably later go through and reposition where each shoulder armour piece sits with the prime shoulders under them. 

the state of the immortal skin atm actually worries me a little? I've been working on a design I wanna put together to submit to tennogen, and its looking like if I made it and it got in game, toggling the prime parts on for it would end up removing the shoulders? which is kind of a bummer.

but either way, as I said in your thread yesterday, if trinity and nova are allowed to do this,

I don't see why oberon prime can't at least have his prime shoulder armour on at all times, even if it clips a little. :(

Because those parts are beyond any kind of help. It's what happens when they do the model too weird. Loki Prime also comes to mind.

The shoulders behave the way they do because if they glued the base, for example, and then put the rest on top, it wouldn't be centered. And the way it's designed, even if they literally glued it back to the mesh, it would bend on some weird places.

And then there would be the clipping. And what would happen with the people that are currently happy with how he looks? Or how their current custom looks are?

Seriously guys. Can't you just take it? With PBR we lost tint channels, with custom armor we lost proper rigging on a few frames, and with Primes we usually lose proper texture unwrapping because of the ever growing crazy models -- which is the reason they made a Prime toggle for TennoGen. Hell, even Frost Prime has a narrower neck to accomodate his Prime helmet, whcih makes the rest clip terribly lol

And when the pieces are on top, people WILL complain about how obstructive they are. It's nothing new.

I doubt DE will do anything here because half these decisions were probably made in advance through early stages because of how the things looked, and decided this was the best way to put it. Which is not hard to see why.

Seriously, it's just asking for trouble where there is none because you don't like how he looks.

I don't know why but I can already see myself going to the bank for a refund earning me the auto permaban because of a change.

Edited June 1, 2017 by NightmareT12

[nonbinarysunset]

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

Because those parts are beyond any kind of help. It's what happens when they do the model too weird. Loki Prime also comes to mind.

The shoulders behave the way they do because if they glued the base, for example, and then put the rest on top, it wouldn't be centered. And the way it's designed, even if they literally glued it back to the mesh, it would bend on some weird places.

And then there would be the clipping. And what would happen with the people that are currently happy with how he looks? Or how their current custom looks are?

Seriously guys. Can't you just take it? With PBR we lost tint channels, with custom armor we lost proper rigging on a few frames, and with Primes we usually lose proper texture unwrapping because of the ever growing crazy models -- which is the reason they made a Prime toggle for TennoGen. Hell, even Frost Prime has a narrower neck to accomodate his Prime helmet, whcih makes the rest clip terribly lol

And when the pieces are on top, people WILL complain about how obstructive they are. It's nothing new.

I doubt DE will do anything here because half these decisions were probably made in advance through early stages because of how the things looked, and decided this was the best way to put it. Which is not hard to see why.

Seriously, it's just asking for trouble where there is none because you don't like how he looks.

I don't know why but I can already see myself going to the bank for a refund earning me the auto permaban because of a change.

but I do like how he looks, I really like how he looks. and I wish he didn't look extremely different if I want to use the customizations I've bought on him. I just don't understand why oberon prime has to lose his shoulders pretty much entirely if you want to equip alternate armour on him.

the work mynki did on this design is rad, and obviously included the shoulders, so it looks incomplete to have them come off. I don't understand why, at some point during the modelling process, the decision was made to have his shoulders detach completely, rather than (as we've discussed before) the little arch coming off them to make room for attachments, just like base oberon's branches. there didn't have to be clipping at all, the shoulders were included in the design, so there was time during the model's development to have any attachments positioned in the least obtrusive way possible, as they have to do every time they position the cosmetics on a new frame mesh - but even if there was clipping, why does it only matter on oberon, when stuff like that image I posted above is allowed to happen on other frames?

its a bad precedent to set. I'm being loud/annoying/stubborn about it because I hope DE avoids it in the future, and because this feels like oberon getting the short end of the stick, as usual. it shouldn't be possible for someone to look at an upcoming prime frame and go "yeah that looks pretty cool, I guess I'll grab prime access", only to find out that huge chunks of the design come off if they want to customize it. especially as the vast majority of customizations in this game cost real money, and some are only available through prime access. 

when mirage prime comes out are her shoulder pads or leg guards going to come off if she has shoulder or leg armour put on her? I would really hope the heck not, as those are extremely important parts of her silhouette, but now I don't know what to expect. if its something they want us to accept or expect, they should at least mention on the prime access page or during the reveals on the devstreams/prime time if parts of the frame we would expect to be part of the model (because they are on the original) are going to be something we won't get to use if we wanna use other armour.

if there are people who like the lack of shoulders, you're right, it would suck to upset them now that they've had a few days to get used to it. but its exactly the same situation for everyone who got oberon prime and have been posting here/the reddit saying "where are oberon's shoulders?" etc. because as far as anyone knew to expect, the shoulders would be part of his model, just like the base frame. and because of that I think the best solution is in this instance, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is to set the prime shoulders to the auxiliary slot, and then set alternate positions for shoulder armour customizations for when the prime shoulders are equipped, so people can decide for themselves whether or not to use them.

and I think that should be the standard for all frames eventually, if/when DE find time to go back and do it, because its kind of annoying that only valkyr, nekros and chroma dynasty get that extra control over their appearance when so many other frames have to lose unique elements of their design for customization. it would set up the system to allow more consistency in the future, and then issues of expectations and choice like this can be avoided completely.

Edited June 1, 2017 by glutularphysics

[NightmareT12]

11 minutes ago, glutularphysics said:

but I do like how he looks, I really like how he looks. and I wish he didn't look extremely different if I want to use the customizations I've bought on him. I just don't understand why oberon prime has to lose his shoulders pretty much entirely if you want to equip alternate armour on him.

the work mynki did on this design is rad, and obviously included the shoulders, so it looks incomplete to have them come off. I don't understand why, at some point during the modelling process, the decision was made to have his shoulders detach completely, rather than (as we've discussed before) the little arch coming off them to make room for attachments, just like base oberon's branches. there didn't have to be clipping at all, the shoulders were included in the design, so there was time during the model's development to have any attachments positioned in the least obtrusive way possible, as they have to do every time they position the cosmetics on a new frame mesh - but even if there was clipping, why does it only matter on oberon, when stuff like that image I posted above is allowed to happen on other frames?

its a bad precedent to set. I'm being loud/annoying/stubborn about it because I hope DE avoids it in the future, and because this feels like oberon getting the short end of the stick, as usual. it shouldn't be possible for someone to look at an upcoming prime frame and go "yeah that looks pretty cool, I guess I'll grab prime access", only to find out that huge chunks of the design come off if they want to customize it. especially as the vast majority of customizations in this game cost real money, and some are only available through prime access. 

when mirage prime comes out are her shoulder pads or leg guards going to come off if she has shoulder or leg armour put on her? I would really hope the heck not, as those are extremely important parts of her silhouette, but now I don't know what to expect. if its something they want us to accept or expect, they should at least mention on the prime access page or during the reveals on the devstreams/prime time if parts of the frame we would expect to be part of the model (because they are on the original) are going to be something we won't get to use if we wanna use other armour.

if there are people who like the lack of shoulders, you're right, it would suck to upset them now that they've had a few days to get used to it. but its exactly the same situation for everyone who got oberon prime and have been posting here/the reddit saying "where are oberon's shoulders?" etc. because as far as anyone knew to expect, the shoulders would be part of his model, just like the base frame. and because of that I think the best solution is in this instance, as I've mentioned elsewhere, is to set the prime shoulders to the auxiliary slot, and then set alternate positions for shoulder armour customizations for when the prime shoulders are equipped, so people can decide for themselves whether or not to use them.

and I think that should be the standard for all frames eventually, if/when DE find time to go back and do it, because its kind of annoying that only valkyr, nekros and chroma dynasty get that extra control over their appearance when so many other frames unique elements of their design for customization. it would set up the system to allow more consistency in the future, and then issues of expectations and choice like this can be avoided completely.

Well, FINALLY. A new system built on top of the old one is something else from what people usually suggest (And yes, Electrohead suggested something similar, but in that case it would have had other implications, like cutting it off Oberon too, as I realized 90 mins ago. Even if that's not what he suggested is what would have happened).

And on that I wholeheartedly agree: More slots with more options. HOWEVER, I know enough of DE to know that if they have to change something they'll have to do the one that means less time being wasted on it. Remember TennoGen -- the original plan was to have the original model, and it was not until the BIG complain thread happened that they didn't invest enough time to pull off the toggle. And even then, they could have made it even better with more time, but I can understand why they did not.

So, is the bolded part in your quote, for clarification:
 

Quote

as I've mentioned elsewhere, is to set the prime shoulders to the auxiliary slot, and then set alternate positions for shoulder armour customizations for when the prime shoulders are equipped, so people can decide for themselves whether or not to use them.

something I would support? Hell yes, because no one, absolutely no one, would lose out.

But as I said, it's unfortunately the option that wouldn't happen. Because it's the absolutely harder to pull off :(

As for future frames, this is the last one with armor pieces. So don't expect any other to appear, I'm pretty sure they want to keep things as easy as possible to themselves.

Also, kudos to keep doing really cool, well elabaroted posts and coming up with as less excluding solutions as possible man. I must say I am quite hot headed too, because it would be like the 5th time they'd change something like this. (Separating meshes for armor pieces, Noru Prime, Excalibur Prime and not too long ago Harka Frost's material change). A couple of them could go back to concept thankfully, but you can imagine how I'd feel at this point, specially using this much hard earned real money :(

Edited June 1, 2017 by NightmareT12

[nonbinarysunset]

36 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Also, kudos to keep doing really cool, well elabaroted posts and coming up with as less excluding solutions as possible man. I must say I am quite hot headed too, because it would be like the 5th time they'd change something like this. (Separating meshes for armor pieces, Noru Prime, Excalibur Prime and not too long ago Harka Frost's material change). A couple of them could go back to concept thankfully, but you can imagine how I'd feel at this point, specially using this much hard earned real money :(

thanks, I appreciate it! and I'm glad you actually took the time to read through all that haha. I'm trying to be as respectful and reasonable as possible on this stuff, because I do really love all the work DE and their art team do, but I'm also trying to make my arguments for a change clear, so the words are. many. many words. lmao.

Edited June 1, 2017 by glutularphysics