The vault system violates consumer trust and is bad for community growth.

[Makogan]

I am sure there were multiple of these once they implemented this system but I just came back from a long pause due to real life necessities (almost 2 years) and I want to state my opinion. 

As background I started playing the game on PS4 then I made a new account for PC and stuck to that one. I must have spent maybe 15$ on the PS4 account and I lost track of how much I have spent on the PC one.

When I stopped playing all prime content was available, you had to farm like crazy and it could take weeks for you to complete something, but you could get any prime item if you really wanted it, you just had to work for it. When I came back I bought some platinum to get me started and decided to keep farming the prime parts I was previously farming for, but the system was different so I decided to investigate before I made a mistake I would later regret, and I learnt about the vault system...

So now for the actual rant:

This system hurts the game and the community and even DE on the long term.

Most successful online videogames, and certainly those that make the most money, follow the same heuristic, even those where you need to buy a base game before playing "We will encourage and tempt you to buy stuff with your money, but we won't force you" (I am thinking of Dota, lol, overwatch, FF14, CS:GO...). The vault system violates this principle, because it locks content and the releases it for a very limited time, so if a player cannot play for the time the items are unvaulted, he/she either has to pay to get it, or let it go and hope it gets released at a time when it;s convenient for them to farm. Another thing the games that I previously described do is paying for cosmetics is mandatory, paying for gameplay is optional or not even an option and not at all necessary (of course, with the exception of FF14 all games I listed ar PVP not PVE).

So first as a consumer, I can only get certain content when DE decides to make it available to me, I must do it on their terms, and this content is relevant to the gameplay, it's better versions of game content with actual impact in how I can advance through the game, It's my money, so being toyed around and almost coerced to buy something that directly affects gameplay greatly discourages me from trading with DE, since there are other companies out there that have micro transaction policies that are more friendly to me as a consumer.

As a returning player (and this applies to new players as well) I am now locked away, for who knows how much time, from content that I desire. I want this given prime frame or weapon, because I like it, the stats are useful, it's powerful... so on, but there's nothing I can do to get the item on my own, I either have to trade with other players (most likely platinum, which mostly translates to my real money once again although granted, you can get plat by trading) or wait to see when DE decides to release the items again. So why should I re-engage (or engage in the first place for a new player) into the game, if I cannot work for the content that I want, it's very discouraging for anyone that is not playing constantly.

As a player. This actually discourages playing. Even if you are ok with anything that I have complained about above, if you already have mostly what you want, except for certain prime items, then there is no reason to play anymore, just stop playing until the items are un-vaulted, but in the meantime you may get hooked with another game and never come back.

I understand not everyone will agree, but as a player, and as a consumer, I am ok with being locked out of cosmetics, I am ok with paying money to look cooler, but I want the freedom to chose whether and when I spend time playing or spend money. It is not ok to artificially lock gameplay content, which creates a gap between players. I want to be able to work and grind for stuff when I CAN, not when DE has the mercy to let me.

Edit:

My suggestion is, make a subset of all vaulted items available for farming for a month, then the next month rotate them for a different set, although the newest items should not rotate out for a couple of rotations. The goal should be that all prime content should be available for farming on a 6 month or at least 1 year basis. Alternatively make much smaller sets and make the rotation be every week or every 2 weeks for increased variability and smaller windows.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Makogan

[(XBOX)neoxal]

You can always farm stuff that can be sold for plat and then buy the vaulted stuff from other players. I started playing on January and I have managed to buy every single vaulted frame with no spending a single dime. Now I'm trying to get the weapons as well.

[DogManDan]

There is absolutely no violation of consumer trust with the Prime Vault timed releases. The content while limited time is available to both the free player and someone who chooses to invest money. As long as the content is available for free players, even if that means a grind, there is no laws broken in the F2P market. Honestly there are tons of games with limited content releases especially the F2P market where is it all about promotions and making money. 

For giggles however since you mentioned Overwatch, with all their limited seasonal content if you don't have the time to farm for it you better have the $$$ to fork out for RNG loot boxes to hope you get what you want or you will have to wait indefinitely until they decide to release it again, if they choose! 

You are going to say but this content is required for leveling up and so it breaks the game! Yes to level max mastery you need to have a hold of all items in the game. There are plenty of ways to get a hold of just about everything without ever spending money as long as you are willing to put the time and effort in. So again no consumer trust laws are broken.

I laughed at this whole rant, thanks for the fun times!

[Makogan]

That will only work until the relics start to become rare (since they are not dropping they are bounnd to go down in numbers), at which point the will go up in price. Also that solution is actually a very poor one, all that plat could be spent on increasing weapon/warframe slots, or getting potatoes, now I must use it to get relics because DE decided I am no longer allowed to grind for the parts that I want, so I must now grind fro stuff that I don't want, then try to get someone to buy it, then try to find someone with the parts I want.

[(PSN)ExetSM]

While I do not agree with your points I like the fact that you kept it fomal, but as a lot of complaints on the forum I see no suggestions instead (unless it's skip the vault?).

This obsession with primes people have is faulty imo. You don't need Rhino Prime for a good Rhino build. The difference with Rhino and it's prime variant is 85 more armor, 0.05 more sprint speed, extra polarity and the bonus from when you near Death orb in Void (I think that's all?). This is not what makes a build good! You will do, just as fine, wth normal Rhino, mods and ability is what makes Frames good, not, necessarily, it's stats like armor and health.
And they also give you an option to farm for in-game currency in game which you can use to buy the prime, if you desperately want it, from other players, So when you say you can either only farm it for a limited time or buy it with your money, is false. You can farm it for a specific time, you can farm for plat and buy, or you can spend money to get plat and buy it that way. Same goes for cosmetic (except the second point)

Edited June 29, 2017 by (PS4)ExetSM
What's up typos

[Makogan]

3 minutes ago, DogManDan said:

There is absolutely no violation of consumer trust with the Prime Vault timed releases. The content while limited time is available to both the free player and someone who chooses to invest money. As long as the content is available for free players, even if that means a grind, there is no laws broken in the F2P market. Honestly there are tons of games with limited content releases especially the F2P market where is it all about promotions and making money. 

For giggles however since you mentioned Overwatch, with all their limited seasonal content if you don't have the time to farm for it you better have the $$$ to fork out for RNG loot boxes to hope you get what you want or you will have to wait indefinitely until they decide to release it again, if they choose! 

You are going to say but this content is required for leveling up and so it breaks the game! Yes to level max mastery you need to have a hold of all items in the game. There are plenty of ways to get a hold of just about everything without ever spending money as long as you are willing to put the time and effort in. So again no consumer trust laws are broken.

I laughed at this whole rant, thanks for the fun times!

Those are COSMETIC items, they don't affect gameplay at all, the comparison doesn't follow. There is violation of F2P heuristics, if a player for whatever reason cannot grind during the month or so the items are un-vaulted he or she must pay to get them or wait who know how much time until they get un-vaulted again.

[(XBOX)neoxal]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ExetSM said:

This obsession with primes people have is faulty imo. You don't need Rhino Prime for a good Rhino build.

But you need them for the mastery. 

[(PSN)ExetSM]

Just now, (Xbox One)neoxal said:

But you need them for the mastery. 

Another obsession that is not justified

[DogManDan]

1 minute ago, Makogan said:

Those are COSMETIC items, they don't affect gameplay at all, the comparison doesn't follow. There is violation of F2P heuristics, if a player for whatever reason cannot grind during the month or so the items are un-vaulted he or she must pay to get them or wait who know how much time until they get un-vaulted again.

he/she can trade for them in game without ever spending money even after they are vaulted. I have plenty of relics available & even parts for said vaulted items which I trade/give to people at my leisure. Regardless of COSMETIC or not for Overwatch the principal is exactly the same concept of time gating items, with the difference here of the mastery items are still always available in some capacity. Again there is no consumer trust broken 

[Makogan]

 

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ExetSM said:

While I do not agree with your points I like the fact that you kept it fomal, but as a lot of complaints on the forum I see no suggestions instead (unless it's skip the vault?).
This obsession with primes people have is faulty imo. You don't need Rhino Prime for a good Rhino build. The difference with Rhino and it's prime variant is 85 more armor, 0.05 more sprint speed, extra polarity and the bonus from when you near Death orb in Void (I think that's all?). This is not what makes a build good! You will do, just as fine, wth normal Rhino, mods and ability is what makes Frames good, not, necessarily, it's stats like armor and health.
And they also give you an option to farm for in game currency in game which you can use to buy the prime, if you desperately want it, from other players, So when you say you can either only farm it for a limited time or buy it with your money, is false. You can farm it for a specific time, you can farm for plat and buy, or you can spend money to get plat and buy it that way.

The obsession is a mixture of principle and what we could call player envy. On one part there is the fact that, as marginally better as prime equipment is to normal equipment. It is still better objectively with no downside, so why must one conform to a lesser version of the same thing? The other thing is, player A has something I want, and I cannot get what player A has because I was studying hard and working when the item was available, and now that I have free time I cannot get it because  it's vaulted.

[(XBOX)neoxal]

10 minutes ago, Makogan said:

That will only work until the relics start to become rare (since they are not dropping they are bounnd to go down in numbers), at which point the will go up in price. Also that solution is actually a very poor one, all that plat could be spent on increasing weapon/warframe slots, or getting potatoes, now I must use it to get relics because DE decided I am no longer allowed to grind for the parts that I want, so I must now grind fro stuff that I don't want, then try to get someone to buy it, then try to find someone with the parts I want.

Hey, at least you can still obtain them one way or another, different from that other Prime frame who shall not be named in the forums and that will never be available again. Now that is the definition of forever vaulted. I'll be grateful that other old warframes can still be obtained by farming  platinum and playing the game 

Edited June 29, 2017 by (XB1)neoxal

[Makogan]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)ExetSM said:

Another obsession that is not justified

I think it is justified, whatever motivates people to play is important, at least for that player. And mastery rank is a status symbol, so I disagree, it definitely matters.

[(XBOX)neoxal]

Just now, Makogan said:

I think it is justified, whatever motivates people to play is important, at least for that player. And mastery rank is a status symbol, so I disagree, it definitely matters.

Not only a status or a symbol, but some content is mastery locked, so I think it's somehow important

[(PSN)ExetSM]

6 minutes ago, Makogan said:

 

The obsession is a mixture of principle and what we could call player envy. On one part there is the fact that, as marginally better as prime equipment is to normal equipment. It is still better objectively with no downside, so why must one conform to a lesser version of the same thing? The other thing is, player A has something I want, and I cannot get what player A has because I was studying hard and working when the item was available, and now that I have free time I cannot get it because  it's vaulted.

Yes it's objectively better, but nothing that will mean life or death for you (in most cases).
And you can get it! By spending time in-game and farming for plat. The only thing you cannot get is cosmetics, and that has no value to your build, only your appearence, and if that is what you complain about, that is just you being envious and pety.

 

5 minutes ago, Makogan said:

I think it is justified, whatever motivates people to play is important, at least for that player. And mastery rank is a status symbol, so I disagree, it definitely matters.

Fair enough, that it motives some people to play is important and is therefor slight justified (still doesn't make your point valid, it is not that effective of an point) but the fact that it's a status symbol and that matter to people is laughable and not justified

 

3 minutes ago, Makogan said:

Although I agree that the excalibur prime thing is a fiasco and I also dislike it, there is actually a way around it, release another warframe that is a different version of excalibur, with the exame same stats as excalibur prime but that looks different.

I am sorry but you just sound more and more petty. Why is it a fiasco for DE to show their gratitude to people who helped them get their game off the ground? This weird, constant complain about Excalibur prime is just.... lame. Grow up people.

Edited June 29, 2017 by (PS4)ExetSM

[Makogan]

Although I agree that the excalibur prime thing is a fiasco and I also dislike it, there is actually a way around it, release another warframe that is a different version of excalibur, with the exame same stats as excalibur prime but that looks different.

[(PSN)madarasenju3]

In my opinion, mastery rank is a number that helps u be able to use more weapons. Primes are shiny and have little difference with regular frames and shouldn't be stressed so much.

[Makogan]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)ExetSM said:

Yes it's objectively better, but nothing that will mean life or death for you (in most cases).
And you can get it! By spending time in-game and farming for plat. The only thing you cannot get is cosmetics, and that has no value to your build, only your appearence, and if that is what you complain about, that is just you being envious and pety.

The plat that I also need to farm to get more warframe slots, and weapon slots, and in terms of practicality potatoes, because the potato alerts are quite rare. I hate this compensation. "You can always farm for plat", yes, but there is already a lot of gameplay content that is plat locked without the need to add more. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Makogan

[(PSN)ExetSM]

1 minute ago, Makogan said:

The plat that I also need to farm to get more warframe slots, and weapon slots, and in terms of practicality potatoes, because the potato alerts are quite rare. I hate this compensation. "You can always farm for plat", yes, but there is already a lot of gameplay content that is plat locked without the need to add more. 

So you think that there's is to much stuff for you to farm for? Well hey, welcome to an F2P game!
At least I can get everything (except cosmetics), I've sadly played to many games that people who pay money will get an permanent advantage. In Warframe it's all about time. If you don't have time enough to farm for frames/plat, you buy plat and spend it (which is a solution to your problem if you still are willing to spend money on plat. Buy plat, buy the frame). I can get everything with investing time. Some is more effective then other.

[(PSN)madarasenju3]

Nobody said u "need" potatoes. That's optional lol

[Makogan]

8 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

LMAO!!!   LMAO!!!!!

Edit:  Sorry, but that line was funny to me.

I mean I am not sure how else to put it, it's a number that indicates how you've played and the amount of content you have seen, it directly correlates to you level of experience with the game :p

[Makogan]

Just now, (PS4)madarasenju3 said:

Nobody said u "need" potatoes. That's optional lol

How are potatoes optional? They double the mod capacity, that's an incredibly powerful boost

[(PSN)madarasenju3]

Well, Potatoes do add a powerful boost, but u can stlll easily overpower enemies without them.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Makogan said:

I mean I am not sure how else to put it, it's a number that indicates how you've played and the amount of content you have seen, it directly correlates to you level of experience with the game :p

It doesn't do that at all.  All it shows is that you ranked up a lot of gear.  There are just too many with high MR that really haven't played as much of the game as you may be thinking.  Draco was a thing that heavily contributed to this.  

Edited June 29, 2017 by DatDarkOne
spelling

[Archeyef]

2 minutes ago, Makogan said:

I mean I am not sure how else to put it, it's a number that indicates how you've played and the amount of content you have seen, it directly correlates to you level of experience with the game :p

Not really. It's incredibly easy to inflate that number and give an inaccurate representation of a player's experience, if that is the metric you're going to use. All you have to do is take a weapon or frame to an affinity farming node and have your party permission set to public. You don't even have to use the weapon or any of the frame's powers. You haven't experienced anything, but you've got the number that says you have.

[Makogan]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ExetSM said:

So you think that there's is to much stuff for you to farm for? Well hey, welcome to an F2P game!
At least I can get everything (except cosmetics), I've sadly played to many games that people who pay money will get an permanent advantage. In Warframe it's all about time. If you don't have time enough to farm for frames/plat, you buy plat and spend it (which is a solution to your problem if you still are willing to spend money on plat. Buy plat, buy the frame). I can get everything with investing time. Some is more effective then other.

We are going on a tangent, I am ok with playing money as well as grinding, and investing time, but I want to be able to chose when and how to do it, and it certainly doesn't make me happy that because I couldn't play I can no longer grind for the things that I want. Moreover, you all keep saying farm plat and buy, but no one has addressed the issue that relic inventories will drop as time goes on.