Feedback: Respec Costs / Credit Sink thoughts.

[Ced23Ric]

Oh hai! ~a lolcat sits on a pile of money.~

You see, I like amassing hoards f gold as much as the next guy, but I also like to, eventually, use the hoard to buy something. Back when we played Pen & Paper, we used to annoy the hell out of our dungeon master by saving up for a war ship. In a desert campaign. It was quite glorious. But that's a given - if you can buy a horrendously expensive and impractical item with virtual money and annoy someone in the process, good times ensue.

But, this quote actually prompted me to say a few words about something that has been bothering me, too.

Have you guys tried respeccing? It costs like 50000 now! What?

It's actually 60,000 Credits for rank 30. The formula is [Rank] * 2000, as pointed out by Tyrian3k.

Now, I don't mind too much, I am sitting on 2,000,000 credits, +/- 250,000 when I go on BP shopping sprees or buy enough Teamheals/Ammo for the next generations, but let's talk about that number outside of a vacuum. First of all, the number is steep for something that is supposed to allow you to adapt. To turn a shield-tank into a pseudo-caster, or go to health-oriented play, or try out different power loadouts. It's about experiencing the game in various ways from the same platform.

If changing your playstyle becomes a financial decision, then something's off. If I need to grind mods to sell so I can afford to test another ability, things are actually pretty grimey. What I am saying, is, respec costs are a bad cash sink.

On the other hand, yeah, we are asking for cash sinks. We had many ideas, too. Mod lotteries, special suicide Difficulty 6 missions, endless dungeon access cards, "maps" to uncharted orbits, larger ammo boxes, speed boosts, etc. pp. - but those would add to the game, not deny things if you don't pay.

So, with that being said, please reconsider the decision to amp up the cost of respecing by, what feels like, factor 20 and gve us other cash sinks.

Thank you for your considerations.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Sherbniz]

I found this rather frustrating when I had to stick with an experimental loadout for a while because the respec cost was so incredibly high...

I understood the cost back then when you would fill up your entire tree anyhow, because it was luxury for earily levels, and never expensive.

But with every choice changing your warframe so drasticly, I would really like to experiment more...

Having a respec cost half as much as crafting a brand new Warframe is quite discouraging me to experiment with the skill tree however...

Edited February 1, 2013 by Sherbniz

[CapricaSix]

Instead of such an extreme money sink, why not just limit the maximum amount of credits per account? So instead of eventually becoming billionaires who won't get hurt no matter what kind of a money sink you implement or super expensive item you add to the market, we'll just need to work some more as soon as we buy some actual items from the market. Just a thought.

I think I've seen this in a couple of MMOs {with different kind of account types such as f2p players, premium players, gold players etc that increased the max limit for your money} but can't remember which, possibly LOTRO.

[Ced23Ric]

Instead of such an extreme money sink, why not just limit the maximum amount of credits per account?

I'd just hoard the mods then, and sell them as my cash cap allows it. Limiting cash flow is not the way to solve this. We need cash sinks.

[CapricaSix]

We need cash sinks.

Still 60k seems a bit excessive, although I guess it's safe to assume someone who needs a respec has already hit rank 30 and made lots of money by then. Can't really say... :|

[Ced23Ric]

Still 60k seems a bit excessive, [...]

We need other cash sinks. Like I said above.

[Tyrian3k]

How about a gambling system that creates a random item similar to the login-reward? Those tend to be the best cash sinks.

Also it's not really 60k, it's [Warframe-level] * 2000.

[KuroiMajutsushi]

I agree that the respec cost is too high and isn't a proper money sink. I've not hit the wall of swimming in money yet, as I spend most of the money I get right away on new blueprints, weapons and consumables. But I can see how it can become a problem for players that have everything they want to have. Or literally have everything in the game so far already.

Limiting the amount of credits a player can have is very discouraging to those that get them limited. I played DC Universe Online for a while when it came out and amassed a healthy amount of ingame cash. When I came back after it went f2p, my money was capped at 3k. Which was barely enough to cover repairs after doing high level content. This was on premium status mind you, f2p players had it even worse. The rest of my money was put in an escrow account which required real money payment for withdrawals.

Now this was an example of it being done VERY poorly, obviously. Especially since there was an auction house in the game, basically forcing you to subscribe. But the point stands regardless. It's discouraging and doesn't solve the problem either.

A proper money sink needs to be implemented. And I'm sure it will, since we're only in closed beta atm. Things that would be good money sinks are some of the things stated by the OP. New and higher grade consumables, mod fusion, dungeon passes.

One consumable that could be added for example is an energy injector/syringe/kit since we currently don't have any energy restoring consumables. I think 25 energy for the lower grade version and 50 for the higher grade one would be fair and wouldn't break the game due to the limit on how many consumables you can carry. Perhaps a 25 energy group one as well (50 would be too much for a group version imo).

Another one that comes to mind is a team ammo box that you can deploy on the ground, but only loot once per player. With the same variants that are currently available for personal ones. Omni one for platinum as well.

Prices on the higher grade items should probably be at least three to five times of the cost of the lower grade variants. And I'd make the team variants of these two consumables around 10k credits each.

Some vanity items might work as well, but since the game is of the f2p type this would have to be carefully considered. Blacklight: Retribution did this well with weapon tags. They had ones you could earn by gaining levels, ones you could buy for ingame money and ones you could buy with their equivalent of platinum. Something I think would work well with a similar system are the mod orbs.

Edited February 1, 2013 by KuroiMajutsushi

[Ced23Ric]

How about a gambling system that creates a random item similar to the login-reward? Those tend to be the best cash sinks.

What I meant with "Mod lotteries" in the OP. A lottery like the login system would be horrible. I am not going to spend money on something that'd give me a shot at getting +600 Bolto XP. What I would probably waste the majority of my credits on would be something like the Diablo gambling trader where you'd buy unidentified items, and guess where the good one is, with rotating randomized inventory.

Also it's not really 60k, it's [Warframe-level] * 2000.

True. It's 60,000 for the endgame, my apologies. I'll amend the OP.

One consumable that could be added for example is an energy injector/syringe/kit since we currently don't have any energy restoring consumables. I think 25 energy for the lower grade version and 50 for the higher grade one would be fair and wouldn't break the game due to the limit on how many consumables you can carry. Perhaps a 25 energy group one as well (50 would be too much for a group version imo).

Another one that comes to mind is a team ammo box that you can deploy on the ground, but only loot once per player. With the same variants that are currently available for personal ones. Omni one for platinum as well.

Some pretty sweet ideas there.

Some vanity items might work as well, but since the game is of the f2p type this would have to be carefully considered. Blacklight: Retribution did this well with weapon tags. They had ones you could earn by gaining levels, ones you could buy for ingame money and ones you could buy with their equivalent of platinum. Something I think would work well with a similar system are the mod orbs.

Oh hell yes. I would love some orbs that I can colour and such that give me minuscule bonuses (if any). That's a cute thing to get when one's bored with cash anyway. Make them collectibles.

[Rufilius]

Happy that you all rich...about me I have not so much time to play....bought weapons and various items..sold a lot of unused mods and still got 13k....i'm alway poor so to be honest i think money sink are enough in that way.... :)

I agree that maybe have to be more things to use money for...that's right, but please don't raise the costs of things that are already there :D

Edited February 1, 2013 by Rufilius

[Ced23Ric]

.i'm alway poor so to be honest i think money sink are enough in that way.... :)

It will change, trust me. Ceres/Eris drop between 5 to 15 mods a session, you will swim in Credits. Of course, in the midtier, you will scrounge, but eventually, it will come out to your ears.

[Kyuzo]

[Redler]

This gonna be hell for low level player whose mod can't sell for a dime.

[Rufilius]

It will change, trust me. Ceres/Eris drop between 5 to 15 mods a session, you will swim in Credits. Of course, in the midtier, you will scrounge, but eventually, it will come out to your ears.

MM that's good to hear....hope that this one will the first game where i'm rich :)

[SpiderWaifu]

I've only got 350k, and I still feel I have

I need something to spend it on.

Edit: Just a little idea. Perhaps you could spend a load of money to recieve a second log-in reward.

Edited February 1, 2013 by SpiderWaifu

[AsianJoyKiller]

The cost of respeccing for someone like me who has multiple Lvl. 30s, but doesn't have time/can't play a lot is staggering. The price isn't friendly at all if you can only play a few games at a time, but like to mess around with different builds when you do have time to play.

[cypherhalo]

Instead of such an extreme money sink, why not just limit the maximum amount of credits per account? So instead of eventually becoming billionaires who won't get hurt no matter what kind of a money sink you implement or super expensive item you add to the market, we'll just need to work some more as soon as we buy some actual items from the market. Just a thought.

I think I've seen this in a couple of MMOs {with different kind of account types such as f2p players, premium players, gold players etc that increased the max limit for your money} but can't remember which, possibly LOTRO.

That is an interesting idea, I kind of like it. I think the problem is that somehow people are sitting on oodles of cash, but I would bet they are in the minority. I know I am not sitting on oodles of cash and there are still plenty of things to buy. I'm all for DE trying to please as many of their customers as possible, including the people who crank out to endgame in amazingly short times, but seeing as the game is still in early stages, it seems like things such as endgame content and cash sinks should be low down on the priority list.

[CapricaSix]

I'm all for DE trying to please as many of their customers as possible, including the people who crank out to endgame in amazingly short times, but seeing as the game is still in early stages, it seems like things such as endgame content and cash sinks should be low down on the priority list.

That's a very good point, sometimes I just forget we're still in closed beta :P the game is just so well done aside from a couple of minor bugs and such. But yeah I completely agree.

[Ced23Ric]

The approach is two-fold.

• Respec Cost is a bad cash sink. It's a hurdle, not an addition.
• Cash sinks are necessary, some ideas, see above.

Low priority? Yeah. But the Respec thing needs to go. Personally, I don't feel it, but other players with less cash do, hard.

[Sherbniz]

I'm bringing this back up because I again feel the sting of the enormous respec cost while leveling Trinity.

Not only had I encountered a bug where one of the Skill Boosts I unlocked didn't count, I also tried to methodically assemble my build to save on respecs, which left me without many important skills for most of my time spent leveling...

And when Level 20 came, I had to respec either way... and now I'm still not sure the current build is what I want.

But Respec costs are really making this more frustrating than it should be. I just want to go and experiment with different unlock paths and loadouts, but doing so costs me half of what building a new Warframe would...

Please reconsider this money sink, it's just dampening the fun I have with tinkering with my frames by a LOT.

[Furyion]

cash sink...a good one would be creds transfered to mats