De Please Consider: Vote Kick Will Be Abused

[Phatose]

Those are technical issues with Host Migrations that need to be solved anyway.  As far as I can tell, the Majority of Host Migration problems are limited to situations where the host migrates to someone other then you.  Since kicked players will always be the host, that should be a non-issue.

[Boondorl]

Left 4 Dead 2 has this feature and I've barely ever seen it used, even when the game was brimming with life. People troll no where near as much as they claim the community does.

 

The number of trolls I've encountered in this game is probably around two so far. The fact that you think this will be abused just shows how backwards this community is when it comes to things like this. This vote kick system will do nothing but good to prevent afkers and griefers from ruining your game.

 

Might as well remove vampire mode too. I mean, after all, it's WAY too easy to abuse! You'll see it happen every game!

[Tsukinoki]

@Phatose
Except for boss drops.

And it is still a rough ride.

You get in an alert mobile defense and are kicked?  If it doesnt glitch and make the datamass disappear OR reset you to the beginning of the mission (what a slog) you may or may not be able to be joined depending on how long the alert has left meaning you may have to tackle a high level mobile defense on your own for something you want.

That is just ONE of the problems that WILL occur with a vote kick feature.

Blacklists would be so much better because you CANT troll with blacklists.

[Phatose]

It doesn't solve the immediate problem though.  Blacklists can only prevent you from being trolled by the same guy a second time.  It doesn't help at all on the first time, and those are just as frustrating as the second. 

[Tsukinoki]

@Phatose
And with this you can be trolled by the same guy OVER and OVER again.

Sure you can kick him...but it wont stop him the second, or third, or fourth times!

And depending on the numbers that it takes to vote kick someone (is it 2 or 3 people out of 4?) it wont stop them and they'll still be annoying.

The blaclist is better because then they cant troll you after the first time.  And they cant use it to troll you or new players.

[Drusus]

It doesn't solve the immediate problem though.  Blacklists can only prevent you from being trolled by the same guy a second time.  It doesn't help at all on the first time, and those are just as frustrating as the second.

Vote kicking doesn't solve the problem either, truly. It at best, displaces it one time.

The person in either case has to hit the point where they are doing enough damage to warrant a kick, and that damage is a wholly subjective thing. Similarly, blacklisting is a subjective choice.

With a blacklist, you can decide who you want to play with, ad infinitem, after one bad experience.

A vote kick requires you to convince a vote or overcome a weighted vote when others are not of like mind.

The vote kick allows repetitious exposure and repetitious response to problem situations while generation new potential problems of its own with the potential for abuse (whether or not said potential is exploited).

A blacklist is a one stop shop. If something messes up that game session, so be it.

You'll never have to have that problem player in your game again and vice versa. In a pool of 3 million players, that has to be worthwhile.

With a vote kick you'll be just as frustrated in the first game, potentially be unfairly on wrong side of it IN that game or be unable to execute it on a legitimate problem.

There is no guarantee, at all, the vote kick makes for a better '1st exposure' case than the Blacklist, and it does nothing for repeated exposure.

Given that, I still maintain a blacklist is a far superior model.

[Tsukinoki]

@Drusus
To add to what you're saying:
If the person is just trolling YOU and no one else in the group and they dont want to kick them, how does a vote-kick stop that?

True a blacklist wont stop it either, but it will prevent it from happening from that guy in the future.

Someone trolling you and no one else and they dont want to kick?  Oh well, deal with it.  And deal with that player in any random future matches that have him!

With a blacklist he trolls you once and then never again.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[Ronin666]

@Sherbniz

And a blacklist could have solved all of the issues WITHOUT having a way to be abused.

@Callback

And while that would be nice to have the drops there, the most common issue with a host migration? It kicks the user back to the menus.

Think of what this will do for alerts.

And have they even tried to think what this will mean for void missions?

You host the void mission and then have the others kick you on purpose.

Everyone else just got a free void mission AND you didn't use up your key because its not used on abandon or failure!

And think how many people will be &!$$ed to go through an entire void mission, especially one of the new ones, only to be kicked right before the objective is completed and having wasted how much time? For absolutely no gain?

This is a very bad move on DEs part.

 

This, totally support.

 

Blacklist is fine.

 

Vote-kick is lame.

[Weird_Stealth]

AKF 1 minute then Vote Kick, most problems with abuse are solved right there. Although that only effects AFK, but that is OK because it is the largest issue.

EDIT: Seriously though this has been argued to death, please see the other threads;

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/81030-can-you-please-implement-a-way-to-kick-afk-players

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/77168-afk-kick

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76108-can-we-get-anything-to-kick-players

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/73766-afk-leechers-idle-players

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/72771-afk-at-endless-defense-start/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/72298-vote-kick-function/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76047-a-lack-of-a-kick-option

There are more. A lot more.

Agreed, but as long as it's vote kick, and it's only to players who are AFK after so much time.

 

Vote kick is something that most players love and hate, because people love being able to kick people from their missions because of both good and bad reasons, and on the other hand, people hate being kicked for bad reasons.

[Tsukinoki]

@Weird_Stealth
And with the hatred large amounts of the community have towards certain frames, as I have seen alert mobile defenses disbanded because a single mag joined because "We dont want mags to slow us down and make us lose" more than one time, I dont see a lot of good coming from vote kicking in general.

[Xeiva]

Instead of kicking the person it should simply migrate host and change them to their own game with them remaining right where they are in the level so griefing by vote kick won't exist.

[liavalenth]

@Tsukinoki

You know what one of the best things about this being a beta is? They can test things and revoke them if they fail. If this is abused as badly as you expect they will either modify it until it cannot be (possibly making it useless, but that would be the same as option 2,) or just remove it entirely.

DE listens to the community. An anti-leech system is wanted, if it causes more problems than it solves they will take action then. Likely you will just have to deal with 1 weekend of people being impatient and angry about it.

Edited July 17, 2013 by liavalenth

[Tsukinoki]

@Aerostia
Have you ever been on the recieving end of a host migration?

6 times out of 10 it will bug the mission, or mostly the drops.  Meaning if it occurs when the boss drops any BPs they just lost the BPs and wasted a run.

3 times out of 10 they will drop you to the menus, which will cause huge issues with alerts

1 time out of 10?  It will restart the mission and you have to do everything all over again, or will at least restart the mission counts...which can break Spy and Exterminate alerts as well as asteroid sabotage missions.

The fact is though is you kick them.  A few games later they come back to troll you again.  Repeat that a few times and you'll see that it doesn't fix anything.
And that is if you can get the rest of the group to kick that person when it could be a Loki trolling just you with switch teleport and no one else cares.
Use your ult and they teleport you so it doesn't affect any enemies? (Which can and does happen?)  If the others dont want to kick him then you have to deal with it for the rest of the mission.
And any further missions you happen to have with him.

If you blacklist him you have to deal with him for ONE mission and then never have to deal with him again, meaning that he cant come back and troll you ever again.

That would be a far better solution AND would be a long term solution.

[Tsukinoki]

@liavalenth
And a blacklist is a long term solution.

You blacklist them once and never deal with them again.

How is having to convince your group to kick them in any possible missions with them better than adding them to a blacklist and never having to worry about it again?

A kick option will stop him after he annoys you enough times in EVERY mission that he happens to be in that you happen to join.  And depending on your region that can be more than a few times.

A blacklist is a better long term solution and has ZERO griefing potential.

I would rather have to deal with a troll ONCE and then never again.

EDIT:
Another thing a blacklist would allow?  If they are a bad enough leecher/afker/troll people can actually send messages saying "Hey add this guy to your blacklist" and they can do it and not have to worry about them ever again.  With a kick you have to deal with him any time he shows up whlie managing to convince your group to kick him.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[liavalenth]

@Tsukinoki

Why not both?

[Tsukinoki]

@liavalenth
Because I would rather not be kicked by one guy over and over again when I try to start an online map somewhere, such as a defense.
Because i would rather not give trolls the ability to kick right before boss drops.
Because I would rather not give people the ability to kick people because they dont like the frame they are using
Because I would rather not give people the ability to kick people out right before the boss room because their friend/clanmate happened to just get online.
Because I would rather not give a tool that can be majorly abused by the players and used to grief so that griefers cant use it against everyone else as another thing to do.

[VScipii26]

@liavalenth

Because I would rather not be kicked by one guy over and over again when I try to start an online map somewhere, such as a defense.

Because i would rather not give trolls the ability to kick right before boss drops.

Because I would rather not give people the ability to kick people because they dont like the frame they are using

Because I would rather not give people the ability to kick people out right before the boss room because their friend/clanmate happened to just get online.

Because I would rather not give a tool that can be majorly abused by the players and used to grief so that griefers cant use it against everyone else as another thing to do.

But you do want three people afk at spawn.

You do want the Loki to switch teleport you into Heavies.

You do want a Vauban to spam Bounce at doorways.

You do want people to push a boss to the edge of a pit and then kill them.

You do want to be host to a player rubberbanding half the map at a time.

You do want people to walk right over your downed body.

You do want the guy with no powers equipped and yelling over the mic to be in your boss run?

You have to take the bad with the good. And currently there is no good.

[Frostmire]

But you do want three people afk at spawn.

You do want the Loki to switch teleport you into Heavies.

You do want a Vauban to spam Bounce at doorways.

You do want people to push a boss to the edge of a pit and then kill them.

You do want to be host to a player rubberbanding half the map at a time.

You do want people to walk right over your downed body.

You do want the guy with no powers equipped and yelling over the mic to be in your boss run?

You have to take the bad with the good. And currently there is no good.

Can't troll you twice with blacklist .

[Tsukinoki]

@VScipii26
With a blacklist I only have to deal with those people ONCE.  With kicking I deal with them in that match and any other mission we happen to be put together in.  I would rather not deal with the same troll OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.  I would prefer to deal with them once without giving them a tool to use against other players.

Also I dont have to deal with players that go: "He is a vauban, that means he has to be a troll, lets kick him!"  without giving me a chance to show that I dont troll.

I would rather not give players the ability to just kick out any frames they dont like or think can troll or that will hold them back.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[liavalenth]

@Tsukinoki

None of those can occur if it is an AFK Then vote kick system as I, and most vote kick people, advocate after considering that side.

Even if it is not, the assumption that the vote-kick system will work with 2 players is a bad one. I know if I made it then it would only work with at least 3 players, and only if the other people on the design team could convince me it should not be limited to 4. I would suggest making it only work with 4 so groups of 3 trolls would have to team up to actually do much.

Further, if it only works with 3-4 person matches, then only if all the other players want to kick someone can they be kicked for being mag/loki/etc. This seems unlikely, I know you say you have seen people quite because they saw a specific frame, I have not.

Also, I would like this to be put in place THEN criticized, not before.

Edited July 18, 2013 by liavalenth

[Tsukinoki]

@liavalenth
If it has to be 3 out of 4 to kick, or 2 out of 3, you are SOL if it is just you and a troll in an alert, or if one person just wont vote for one reason or another and that would render the vote kick useless!

If that's the case then how about we skip that whole line of business and just go to a blacklist and not give the trolls a shot at vote-kicking, or kicing because of frame or one of their friends gets online, etc....

[liavalenth]

@liavalenth

If it has to be 3 out of 4 to kick, or 2 out of 3, you are SOL if it is just you and a troll in an alert, or if one person just wont vote for one reason or another and that would render the vote kick useless!

1) If it is just you and a troll in an Alert you are already SOL.

2) If someone does not want them kicked that is the entire point of the VOTE-kick instead of HOST-Kick system. It is specifically to stop everything you mentioned.

EDIT: 3) You seem to be against a system that is abusable, but if you make it harder to abuse you suggest it becomes "useless". While I admit it would decrease its use to make it harder to abuse, as long as it is unobtrusive it will be a wash at worst and a boon at best.

Edited July 18, 2013 by liavalenth

[Tsukinoki]

@liavalenth
With needing 3 votes to kick someone:
What if they are only trolling you and the other two dont care?
What if one person just doesn't care enough to vote?
What if you happen to join a group of three that dont want to play with any Vaubans because they are part of the group that calls him Trollban because of his abilities, so they just kick you?
What if you happen to join a group that then has a friend get online?
What about a group of 2 trolls (or even one troll running two accounts) sitting on any of the mercury missions kicking any new players that try making it through?

I am against a system that allows it to be abused or rendered utterly moot in such easy and common ways.

I would prefer a system that couldn't be used for trolling at all and would have no drawbacks that the vote-kick system wouldn't have.

Sure with a blacklist you have to go through one mission, but that is no different than having one truly apathetic person in your group when the other two want to kick the troll.
And with a votekick you solve the problem for one match only and you just have to hope you dont run across hima gain.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Tsukinoki

[liavalenth]

@liavalenth

With needing 3 votes to kick someone:

What if they are only trolling you and the other two dont care?

What if one person just doesn't care enough to vote?

What if you happen to join a group of three that dont want to play with any Vaubans because they are part of the group that calls him Trollban because of his abilities, so they just kick you?

What if you happen to join a group that then has a friend get online?

All of these hypothetical situations seem unlikely, however they are the reason that vote-kick is what was chosen. In order,

1) Too bad for you, no change from current system. Outcome: Wash

2) Same as above. Outcome: Wash

3) 3 people got to play as they wished. Although they are probably being unfair, fact is that 3 people did not want you. Outcome: +3 (for them), -1 (For you)

4) Same as above, even less likely, requires all 3 of the other people in the PuG to want the new guy. If it happens same as above +3, -1.

Now this situation,

What about a group of 2 trolls (or even one troll running two accounts) sitting on any of the mercury missions kicking any new players that try making it through?

Is a problem, and is the reason I would prefer a AFK timer then vote-kick option. However, if implemented without it, they would need some way to stop this. Perfect idea: Prevent anyone who has been kicked from rejoining a game session. The trolls can then only do this to an individual once without starting a new game.

Sure with a blacklist you have to go through one mission, but that is no different than having one truly apathetic person in your group when the other two want to kick the troll.

And with a votekick you solve the problem for one match only and you just have to hope you dont run across hima gain.

Now this is why I think having both would be the best idea. AFK-vote kick for leeches then blacklist for trolls.

EDIT: I would, however, also like to reiterate that you are creating highly unlikely hypothetical situations. While they may occur at some point, most people will probably never have them happen.

Having said that, if I am wrong and this does happen often enough to cause a real problem the devs can change or remove the system. This is beta, where testing new possibly detrimental systems should happen.

TL;DR: Implement the system, test it, take in some data, act according to the data.

Edited July 18, 2013 by liavalenth

[Tsukinoki]

@liavalenth
Now dont get me wrong on something:
I would endorse and AFK ONLY vote kick because the biggest things people complain about are defense leachers and afkers.
And they could cover other types of trolls by having it also be a timer of "You spent X time in a single room with no other team mates nearby" and then initiate a vote kick, to cover people weighting one of their movement keys or setting up an auto mover.  Or even "You spent X minutes with the datamass without moving to extraction/Using it in the data terminal"

I am against one that can be started for any reason at the drop of a hat that will cause further divisions and fracture the community of this game even further, or that can be used in ways that are construed as unfair/mean/trolling.
And it is possible to have an online match, invite some people in and leave a slot open for a random person to join.  When your final friend gets on kick the random under a pure vote-kick system.
I would rather not give people a tool that they can choose to be $&*^s with in a setting where there will be a lot of $&*^s and a lot of chances for them to be $&*^s.

So far the talk has just been about "Vote-kick with no pre-resiquites!" and that is what I am against.  Because that opens itself for trolling far to much and just general $&*^ishness.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Tsukinoki